Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[Ezpz]

FWIW, Should be noted, PLDs significant other is an American from Michigan

To be honest a thoughtful intelligent person wouldn't choose Detroit to raise a family in.

 

[ReHabs]

To be honest a thoughtful intelligent person wouldn't choose Detroit to raise a family in.

There are supposedly nice suburbs around Detroit with a lot of concentrated wealth. I've never been so I won't comment on it but this is an oft-repeated statement, I'm sure there is some truth to it.

 

[Belial]

@FerrisRox

Ehhhh because he'll negotiate with one team instead of having 6 offers on the table?

And that's not to mention he could have a monster year next year as he's entering his prime.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

To be honest a thoughtful intelligent person wouldn't choose Detroit to raise a family in.

They don't. They live in Bloomfield or one of the other rich areas of Michigan close to Detroit.

 

[salbutera]

To be honest a thoughtful intelligent person wouldn't choose Detroit to raise a family in.

Ann Arbor, Grosse Pointe, Forest Hills, Bloomfield and many other very well to do areas say hello

 

[NORiculous]

This is an oversimplification.

1. Communication is key. You don’t need to coddle a player but you have to be able to communicate well.

2. Sutter was fired partially because he had a North South system and they traded for an East West player. The coach didn’t adjust around the player and the player wasn’t suited for the system.

3. You’re right, coddling is poison. I see that happening with Marner in Toronto and we saw the result. But the days of coaching bullies is coming to an end - and that’s a very good thing. A guy like Therrien should never have been near the bench. How many promising careers were derailed because of Neanderthals like him?

Sutter was the wrong guy in that chair. I’m not saying he can’t be successful elsewhere but he is set in his ways. And that doesn’t always work.

I don’t like Therrien but I disagree with the bold. If Therrien was enough to derail a career, there wasn’t much spine to begin with.

Can you really expect someone to go through the rough patchs with no spine?

 

[Sorinth]

I have raised this point several times. There never seems to be an explanation for it.

Have you never heard the expression a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?

Turning down almost 60m because maybe you can get 70m in a years time is risky not just because that 70m might not be there (A major injury would tank it) but there's also less control on where it comes from. That 70m might come from a team that he doesn't want to play for.

How many players can you name who have turned down a contract offer they found reasonable from a team they wanted to play for because they felt they could maybe earn a little bit more?

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I have raised this point several times. There never seems to be an explanation for it.

I believe there is some kool-aid you can drink somewhere, and then it all makes sense...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don’t like Therrien but I disagree with the bold. If Therrien was enough to derail a career, there wasn’t much spine to begin with.

Let's save this for another thread...

 

[Adam Michaels]

To be honest a thoughtful intelligent person wouldn't choose Detroit to raise a family in.

Players don't live in the inner city or the slums. They live in the suburbs and rich areas and in safe neighborhoods.

It's like the Habs players, they don't live in Montreal North, Park-Extension or Hochelaga, They live in places like Candiac, Brossard or a luxury condo downtown.

 

[sampollock]

I believe if Kent does not trade for PLD, habs will not get him as a ufa

 

[Yoor]

There are supposedly nice suburbs around Detroit with a lot of concentrated wealth. I've never been so I won't comment on it but this is an oft-repeated statement, I'm sure there is some truth to it.

I can confirm it-there is LOTS of wealth in the surrounding neighborhoods of Detroit. Like gated communities etc....The city itself is also experience a kind of rebirth since many businesses like Rocket Mortgage, Google and Microsoft have/are opening offices in the downtown. Lots of money going into housing etc...I live in Windsor and we go over all the time.

There is of course still some no go zones outside of the downtown core..if you enjoy living though. lol

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I believe if Kent does not trade for PLD, habs will not get him as a ufa

That would be fantastic. It'll be interesting to see where he goes.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I believe there is some kool-aid you can drink somewhere, and then it all makes sense...

You realize the poster you're replying to wants to acquire Dubois, right?

 

[Jack Skellington]

I have raised this point several times. There never seems to be an explanation for it.

There is no explanation. In fact, by offering up major assets to trade for an unsigned player, you actually LOSE leverage in negotiations because the player knows you absolutely have to sign them now. They can basically ask demand their number and the GM is forced to pay it. Example: Josh Anderson, Jonathan Drouin. The only way trading for PLD makes any sense whatsoever is if it’s a sign and trade. Either he wants to exclusively play for MTL or he doesn’t. If we’re just on his shortlist of teams that he would be somewhat interested in playing for, then why are we freaking out about him as if he’s the only option for us. He’s a good player but not an exceptional one.

 

[JoelWarlord]

How does acquiring him now ensure a 'reasonable' contract.? If what he really wants is to get paid it'll happen one way or another. I don't get people thinking he'll magically sign a long-term deal for several million less than he'd get by simply playing out his last RFA year.

I have raised this point several times. There never seems to be an explanation for it.

The explanation is 8 years allows you to lower the AAV while offering similar money to a 7 year UFA contract, and trading for him as an RFA means no other team is allowed to negotiate with him and throw huge money at him to fill a 2C hole. Yes if his goal is to go to UFA and see what's out there or to get every dime possible, then you are correct that this wouldn't help, but that's not really what's been indicated. If it turns out he's just a mercenary and won't sign for less than an overpay we just won't trade for him in the first place.

You put 60-65 million dollars in front of a guy with an 8 year extension that includes a 10M signing bonus on day 1 this summer and that's potentially going to be enough to get him to sign right now and have his future + financial future completely set. Alternatively, if you let it go to UFA there's always a risk that a team like Boston or Colorado desperately needs a 2C and drives the price up to 9.5M to fill an urgent roster hole. It's not like anyone expects him to take some crazy discount, it's about getting him in at around 7.5 now instead of going to UFA where all you need is one GM to get desperate and the player's gone.

It's all kinda beside the point because the entire trade is predicated on it making sense financially and the entire discussion is moot if that's not the case. Hughes and Gorton are not trading for this guy if he insists on a 9Mx8 deal, or if he's cagey about a contract. They'll be trading for him with a contract or at bare minimum a verbal agreement on the AAV in place, we're not trading for him otherwise.

There is no explanation. In fact, by offering up major assets to trade for an unsigned player, you actually LOSE leverage in negotiations because the player knows you absolutely have to sign them now. They can basically ask demand their number and the GM is forced to pay it.

Not necessarily. That was the case for Drouin and Anderson who otherwise hadn't expressed any interest of playing for the Habs and both trades pretty much appeared out of nowhere.

It's not the same situation, and we would not be trading for the player AND THEN signing him. The contract negotiation would be happing during the trade talks and we simply will not trade for him if he's not willing to sign a reasonable deal.

 

[McPhees Moustache]

The explanation is 8 years allows you to lower the AAV while offering similar money to a 7 year UFA contract, and trading for him as an RFA means no other team is allowed to negotiate with him and throw huge money at him to fill a 2C hole. Yes if his goal is to go to UFA and see what's out there or to get every dime possible, then you are correct that this wouldn't help, but that's not really what's been indicated. If it turns out he's just a mercenary and won't sign for less than an overpay we just won't trade for him in the first place.

You put 60-65 million dollars in front of a guy with an 8 year extension that includes a 10M signing bonus on day 1 this summer and that's potentially going to be enough to get him to sign right now and have his future + financial future completely set. Alternatively, if you let it go to UFA there's always a risk that a team like Boston or Colorado desperately needs a 2C and drives the price up to 9.5M to fill an urgent roster hole. It's not like anyone expects him to take some crazy discount, it's about getting him in at around 7.5 now instead of going to UFA where all you need is one GM to get desperate and the player's gone.

It's all kinda beside the point because the entire trade is predicated on it making sense financially and the entire discussion is moot if that's not the case. Hughes and Gorton are not trading for this guy if he insists on a 9Mx8 deal, or if he's cagey about a contract. They'll be trading for him with a contract or at bare minimum a verbal agreement on the AAV in place, we're not trading for him otherwise.


Not necessarily. That was the case for Drouin and Anderson who otherwise hadn't expressed any interest of playing for the Habs and both trades pretty much appeared out of nowhere.

It's not the same situation, and we would not be trading for the player AND THEN signing him. The contract negotiation would be happing during the trade talks and we simply will not trade for him if he's not willing to sign a reasonable deal.

So you're assuming PLD won't sign another contract after? If he signs a 7 year deal he could still then sign another 1 year contract in lieu of this 8 year deal which would tack on additional dollars.

Would you go to work for the next 8 years for the same total dollar value as a similar dollar amount over 7 years? Makes no sense unless your paying a declining dollar value on the last year of the contract for someone in their late 30's which wouldn't be the case for a 33yr old PLD.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Would you go to work for the next 8 years for the same total dollar value as a similar dollar amount over 7 years? Makes no sense unless your paying a declining dollar value on the last year of the contract for someone in their late 30's which wouldn't be the case for a 33yr old PLD.

NHL players would. Gallagher is done at 31. Subban just retired at 33. Players like pld do not play into their late 30s.

And it wouldn't be the same amount, it would be something like 8/68 vs 7/63, an 8.5 cap hit for 8 vs 9 for 7.

The team with the 8th year has the advantage of adding the last year at half pay to bring down the aav a bit

 

[McPhees Moustache]

NHL players would. Gallagher is done at 31. Subban just retired at 33. Players like pld do not play into their late 30s.

And it wouldn't be the same amount, it would be something like 8/68 vs 7/63, an 8.5 cap hit for 8 vs 9 for 7.

The team with the 8th year has the advantage of adding the last year at half pay to bring down the aav a bit

You think PLD will be retired by 33? And if not you think he'll only get 5M on a 1 year contract at 33 years old? He may end up here and sign a long term deal in but trading for him on now way reduces the AAV of the deal. If he was a few years older and his contract actually took him into his late thirties I'd agree but last time I checked 33/34 isn't late thirties.

 

[Frank Drebin]

You think PLD will be retired by 33? And if not you think he'll only get 5M on a 1 year contract at 33 years old? He may end up here and sign a long term deal in but trading for him on now way reduces the AAV of the deal. If he was a few years older and his contract actually took him into his late thirties I'd agree but last time I checked 33/34 isn't late thirties.

He can't sign a new deal at 33 vs 32?

In the above scenario he's getting paid 5m for his age 32 season.

If everything goes right for him, he may be giving up 2 or 3 million for that season. If things don't go right he's 2-3 million to the good

Small risk for both sides

 

[BLONG7]

Most forwards, have not aged well.................once they get into the 32-33 yrs of age category they tend to fall off big time.......excluding a couple of special players named Crosby and Ovechkin.
\he could get another contract, but...........

Getting him from age 25-33 for a reasonable cap hit would be great, but he and his agent may not like what the habs are prepared to offer.
7-7.5M should more than do it..........7-8 years also should do it..............think of his potential endorsements living in his home province....

 

[HABitual Fan]

Also important is Montreal has the. Ability to give him most of the money in the first few years through bonuses that a few others cannot. The cap hit remains the same for the duration, but the real money goes down making him tradeable if things go south, something Bergy did the opposite of in the deals he signed.

 

[BaseballCoach]

There is no explanation. In fact, by offering up major assets to trade for an unsigned player, you actually LOSE leverage in negotiations because the player knows you absolutely have to sign them now. They can basically ask demand their number and the GM is forced to pay it. Example: Josh Anderson, Jonathan Drouin. The only way trading for PLD makes any sense whatsoever is if it’s a sign and trade. Either he wants to exclusively play for MTL or he doesn’t. If we’re just on his shortlist of teams that he would be somewhat interested in playing for, then why are we freaking out about him as if he’s the only option for us. He’s a good player but not an exceptional one.

This scenario where Dubois is signed for one year only and then we HOPE to sign a reasonable extension has not been proposed by anyone. No one. Never, nada. It's been put forth zero times.

The only people who bring up this scenario are those who do not want to trade for him.

Engaging in an argument with people who write this is a giant waste of time.

 

[BaseballCoach]

How does acquiring him now ensure a 'reasonable' contract.?

Seriously?

I will write slowly and in Capital letters for you.

B E C A U S E
I F
Y O U
D O
N O T
L I K E
H I S
C O N T R A C T
D E M A N D S,
Y O U
D O N ' T
A C Q U I R E
H I M.

 

[Jack Skellington]

This scenario where Dubois is signed for one year only and then we HOPE to sign a reasonable extension has not been proposed by anyone. No one. Never, nada. It's been put forth zero times.

The only people who bring up this scenario are those who do not want to trade for him.

Engaging in an argument with people who write this is a giant waste of time.

Oh so we're lying today. If you could read I clearly said the only scenarios it makes sense is a sign and trade.