Is the lack of success by the Montreal Canadiens a factor in the lack of Quebecers in the NHL?

[Crosby2010]

This was discussed a little while ago in another thread about Canada and the Olympics I believe. I was inquiring why there is just a lack of French-Canadian players and superstars in the NHL like there used to be. There used to be a goaltending factory that came out of Quebec back in the 1990s, partly due to Patrick Roy's success and the butterfly style of play. But there were also forwards that were skilled that scattered throughout the NHL. I mentioned how I think the smaller percentage of Canadian players in the NHL is due to there being less French players than from before. The Western provinces produce players, Ontario does as well, and even the Maritime provinces to an extent. But Quebec has just dropped like a stone when it comes to the amount of talent they churn out. Case in point, look even at someone like Lafreniere who has never lived up to his 1st overall status in 2020. It is still early, and things can happen, but he is at 18 points in 32 games, and that is considered a jump in production for him. Jonathan Huberdeau dropping like an anvil when it comes to being a point producer. He had 85 assists in 2022, good for the best in the NHL, and he's been a ghost since then.

So we can all acknowledge there is a lack of French-Canadian success in the NHL. But why? I was part of a discussion that felt the lack of success the Canadiens have had in the last 30 years comes into play. The Habs won the Cup in 1993, but for the most part since then have not been a contender, and missed a ton of playoff hockey. The only time they made the final since 1993 was 2021 and the province didn't even let fans come into the building! Carey Price has been a star, but oft-injured and the Habs haven't had a 100 point man since Mats Naslund in 1986, and the last time they had a top 10 point producer was then too. It has been three decades of mediocrity and the thought is that this has taken a lot of interest away from young hockey fans in Quebec when there isn't the excitement of the Habs anymore.

How many people feel this theory is spot on? Does it have any validity to it? If not, what are your answers for this?

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[Hinterland]

Are there really less French Canadians in the NHL than in earlier years? I mean it's possible but it's not really the impression I have. Less franchise players, yeah but I'm not sure if there are less French Canadians in total. Does somebody have those numbers?

Also, you probably posted in the wrong forum...

 

[Crosby2010]

Are there really less French Canadians in the NHL than in earlier years? I mean it's possible but it's not really the impression I have. Less franchise players, yeah but I'm not sure if there are less French Canadians in total. Does somebody have those numbers?

Also, you probably posted in the wrong forum...

No, I meant to post it here. This is part of the international tournaments board.

 

[mobilus]

I don't know the provincial development programs within Quebec and this may be a nothing-burger. When my boys played rep hockey we avoided all tournaments in Quebec. We'd heard enough horror stories about how the officiating was so slanted in favour of the Quebec teams over those from out of province, it wasn't worth the entry money or the driving to go there. I had first hand info from a brother and the team he took to Montreal, so when I managed a team, we went to Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh and Buffalo. We played against teams from Windsor/very south Southern Ontario, teams from Carolina, NY, from all over the north east. Likewise, we never saw Quebec teams at any of these U.S. destinations. The variety of competition for our players was extremely helpful. My younger son's team also never went to Quebec, they too did U.S. tournaments. This was from the period of about 2005 - 2015.

 

[Mathew Barzal]

Less Canadians in general, hockey is ridiculously expensive.

 

[Ezpz]

Conference finals runs in 2010 and 2014, and a finals run in 2021. Habs series wins post lockout are nearly top ten in the league, 11th in reality.

What is your idea of success?

 

[Mathieukferland]

Are there really less French Canadians in the NHL than in earlier years?

La cruelle vérité, c’est que le hockey québécois traverse une crise sans précédent depuis une quinzaine d’années. Au tournant des années 2000, on retrouvait plus de 70 hockeyeurs québécois qui gagnaient régulièrement leur vie dans la LNH. Puis, soudainement, la source a commencé à se tarir. En 2010, il n’en restait plus que 35.

The cruel reality is that Québécois hockey is going through an unprecedented crisis for about 15 years. At the beginning of the 2000s, there were about 70 Quebec players that earned a living in the nhl. Then suddenly the well dried up. In 2010, there were only 35 left.

Chronique | Le Canadien et les joueurs québécois : la vraie source du problème

Pour la première fois en plus de 110 ans d’histoire, la formation du Canadien ne comptait aucun joueur québécois lundi soir face aux Oilers d’Edmonton. Cette situation donne lieu à des débats enflammés dont la trame narrative tourne, la plupart du temps, autour de la supposée indifférence de la...

ici.radio-canada.ca

 

[WarriorofTime]

Are there really less French Canadians in the NHL than in earlier years?

There were 76 NHL players that were born in Quebec in the 1983-84 NHL, there are 45 players that were born in Quebec in the 2023-24 NHL. Born in doesn't necessarily reflect where they grew up but I didn't take the time to poke and prod through every player's personal history. But that's 31 less players, at a time when the NHL expanded from 21 teams to 32 teams (+11).

 

[David Suzuki]

hockey is more expensive now and french canadians tend to live in poorer parts of canada

 

[Leafidelity]

Probably. I imagine its the same story in the rest of Canada too.

 

[Nicko999]

Conference finals runs in 2010 and 2014, and a finals run in 2021. Habs series wins post lockout are nearly top ten in the league, 11th in reality.

What is your idea of success?

You know maybe a Cup??? It's been 30 years now.

Also complete lack of super stars during period with ONE PPG season in 28 years. It's a league worse.

The awful teams in the early 00's created a generation that wasn't as interested in hockey for sure. During that period we didn't even have a 50 pts guy for 3 YEARS. Yes, you heard that right... 3 years with not a single player cracking the 50 pts mark.

 

[Craig Ludwig]

I don't know the provincial development programs within Quebec and this may be a nothing-burger. When my boys played rep hockey we avoided all tournaments in Quebec. We'd heard enough horror stories about how the officiating was so slanted in favour of the Quebec teams over those from out of province, it wasn't worth the entry money or the driving to go there. I had first hand info from a brother and the team he took to Montreal, so when I managed a team, we went to Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh and Buffalo. We played against teams from Windsor/very south Southern Ontario, teams from Carolina, NY, from all over the north east. Likewise, we never saw Quebec teams at any of these U.S. destinations. The variety of competition for our players was extremely helpful. My younger son's team also never went to Quebec, they too did U.S. tournaments. This was from the period of about 2005 - 2015.

Oh come on, are you serious? Do you really think that the referees in Quebec are crooked and call everything against Americans and the "English" Ontario kids? If anything, Quebec hockey players were chastised by referees and fans throughout the years for being the "French Frogs" and "Peppers" over the years. That's a bad take. The Quebec Pee Wee Tournament is the greatest worldwide amateur tournament where the finals attract 15,000 people, and the Montreal Meltdown is attended by tons of Ontario and American teams. This has nothing to do with Quebec player development, that's a whole other story.

 

[Colezuki]

Only the rich play hockey, get used to it

 

[Leafshater67]

I think it’s due to socioeconomic factors more so than anything else. It cost a small fortune to have a kid play high level hockey now. Not everybody has that money anymore, especially not in todays day and age

 

[tmg]

There were 76 NHL players that were born in Quebec in the 1983-84 NHL, there are 45 players that were born in Quebec in the 2023-24 NHL. Born in doesn't necessarily reflect where they grew up but I didn't take the time to poke and prod through every player's personal history. But that's 31 less players, at a time when the NHL expanded from 21 teams to 32 teams (+11).

Do you have the equivalent numbers for players from the rest of Canada too? The growth in European and American players over that same span isn’t something to just ignore - I’m sure the rate of all Canadians has declined in the face of the globalization of the NHL.

I think a lot more would be said by the change in rate of Quebec born players relative to the change in rate of non-Quebec born Canadian players …

 

[Michoulicious]

Same thing happening in Saskatchewan. Used to be the top NHLer producing province per capita by far... Still is, but it has dropped dramatically in the last 15 years.

This has nothing to do with Quebec, more with costs vs disposable income.

Since Quebec players are more "visible" (french speaking, french names), they get singled out but the same thing is happening everywhere.

This is a sport for the (very) rich people, hence all those kids of former NHLers getting drafted.

"Fewer NHL players now come from Saskatchewan — why?
Only 20 National Hockey League players are from Sask., down from 57 in 2009-10 season"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/nhl-players-1.7065979

 

[Fatass]

Sorry. What? Too confusing. Please rephrase and just (minus the confusing stuff) just ask what intended.
Habs suck or ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Do you have the equivalent numbers for players from the rest of Canada too? The growth in European and American players over that same span isn’t something to just ignore - I’m sure the rate of all Canadians has declined in the face of the globalization of the NHL.

I think a lot more would be said by the change in rate of Quebec born players relative to the change in rate of non-Quebec born Canadian players …

Ontario: 261 -> 157
Quebec: 76 -> 45
Alberta: 64 -> 45
Saskatchewan: 49 -> 20
British Columbia: 45 -> 43
Manitoba: 30 -> 21
Nova Scotia: 10 -> 9

The Quebec share (amongst Canadians only) on a GP basis is at 12.4 % compared to 14.3 % in 1983-84.

 

[Ezpz]

You know maybe a Cup??? It's been 30 years now.

Also complete lack of super stars during period with ONE PPG season in 28 years. It's a league worse.

The awful teams in the early 00's created a generation that wasn't as interested in hockey for sure. During that period we didn't even have a 50 pts guy for 3 YEARS. Yes, you heard that right... 3 years with not a single player cracking the 50 pts mark.

You know that three year stretch was before the last four drafts were born right? It would have nothing to do with current players in junior. You would have to go back to the 2011 draft or so to even find kids who watched the team in that period, probably closer to the 2008 draft for people who watched it seriously.

The current era of prospects watched Carey Price win the Hart, Pearson and Vezina and Subban win the Norris. They watched the team going to finals two years ago. It's not four years olds who watch hockey religiously, it's teenagers.

 

[ijuka]

Did the lack of success by Toronto Maple Leafs affect the amount of players from Ontario in NHL?

 

[Nicko999]

You know that three year stretch was before the last four drafts were born right? It would have nothing to do with current players in junior. You would have to go back to the 2011 draft or so to even find kids who watched the team in that period, probably closer to the 2008 draft for people who watched it seriously.

The current era of prospects watched Carey Price win the Hart, Pearson and Vezina and Subban win the Norris. They watched the team going to finals two years ago. It's not four years olds who watch hockey religiously, it's teenagers.

Those drafts coincide with the biggest decline in Quebecers (I believe, i don't have the numbers) so it might have something to do. It's a slow trend to get back to normal, it can't happen overnight.

 

[mobilus]

Oh come on, are you serious? Do you really think that the referees in Quebec are crooked and call everything against Americans and the "English" Ontario kids? If anything, Quebec hockey players were chastised by referees and fans throughout the years for being the "French Frogs" and "Peppers" over the years. That's a bad take. The Quebec Pee Wee Tournament is the greatest worldwide amateur tournament where the finals attract 15,000 people, and the Montreal Meltdown is attended by tons of Ontario and American teams. This has nothing to do with Quebec player development, that's a whole other story.

The Quebec PeeWee Tournament is first rate. The levels I was talking about were A and AA. I never went, I'm only repeating what I was told by others who went... their players were run repeatedly to box, period after period, game after game. Maybe it was just a matter of games being called differently than at home. But I heard the same thing from enough sources not to have any interest in going. And I also said, this could be a nothing burger.

 

[Jyrki]

Kids may get more excited about getting into hockey if their local NHL team is winning, but the moment they step into the ice to learn how to skate all of that becomes irrelevant straight away.

Also it doesn't matter how diehard parents themselves are, at the end of the day it's a massive time and money investment and the reality checks comes very quickly.

What's infinitely more important is whether the Habs invest in local infrastructure and find ways to make it easier for parents to get their kids into the hockey system. It's become generally more difficult to afford having kids do that, not just because of cost of living squeezes but because the sport itself has become a lot more regimented and richer parents crowd out the poorer ones from the best resources.

 

[Morlu]

A big factor for years in Quebec is that Western Qudbecers have to play in Ontario. There’s no real competition/leagues on the boarder of Quebec so there’s massive travel time for parents.

 

[GAGLine]

Montreal shouldn't be affected by a lack of Quebecers any more than any other team. It's their own fault for prioritizing French Canadians.