Is Steve Yzerman an above average GM?

[wintersej]

I don't like the contracts, but none of it really diverts from his plan of building through the draft.

He's signing plugs until his draftees are ready.


3-5 year deals are "Long term"?

You can argue about 3…but 5 sure is.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Yea becuase TB won really quickly right? Their rebuild started in 2008 and the won 12 years later.

so if it was easy like you said why didnt yzerman win?

 

[Pavels Dog]

He's failed to weaponize his cap space effectively. That's the problem. He should be taking on cap dumps and flipping the picks for useful, younger players. Instead he wastes the cap space on average/below average players and gives them term.

He signs players who he can later trade for picks and useful younger players, how is that any worse than being a cap dump toilet which absolutely no team except Arizona has any interest in being?

 

[King 88]

People just gonna ignore he already did horrible signing in Tampa too? Drafting got Tampa the cups not great free agent signings.

 

[canuckslover10]

They have 3 players signed beyond 25-26. Some of ya'll talking like they're sitting there with the entire roster full of 7 year contracts.

He has 15.475 Million tied into Chariot, Copp,and Compher all these players make this team better and puts them in a position of where they can't even get top picks and are stuck in the 6-12 range. Seems odd for a rebuilding team, he could have easily capitalized on that cap space to get more draft picks.

It's becoming increasingly worrying how poorly the Wings pro scouting draft evaluates UFA defenseman as well.

 

[Hodge]

Oh boy. I'm really sorry for pointing out this glaring error you made, but Jack Eichel was a lottery pick.

Maybe you're strawmanning, I'll let you admit to that instead if that's the case, but otherwise you'll have to point out where I said "you have to win the draft lottery" because I quite clearly and obviously said "GMs with a lottery pick or two on their rosters"

In case you're new to hockey and weren't aware of this (for which Id feel bad because its not at all my intention to "dunk" on newer fans, as they're necessary for the growth of the game), Vegas couldn't get past the finish line before. Then they got a franchise centerman and former lottery pick who demanded a trade and was only willing to go to a handful of teams who were competitive, and won.

All good though, now you know for next time

Whoa, Jack Eichel was a lottery pick? So it's actually possible for GMs to acquire players like that without winning a draft lottery? Thanks for informing me, I had no idea. Pretty embarrassing that Yzerman blew an opportunity to do that then. Almost like he's a bad GM.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Tampa’s scouting was the true star. Full credit to Yzerman for hiring those guys but later picks are usually more attributable to great scouting than a great GM.
He needs elite forward talent and without a high draft pick and no one obvious in the pipeline I’m not sure how he gets it.
It looks like a really strong D with at best an average forward group.
The signings yesterday were pretty poor overall.

 

[WaW]

Whoa, Jack Eichel was a lottery pick? So it's actually possible for GMs to acquire players like that without winning a draft lottery? Thanks for informing me, I had no idea. Pretty embarrassing that Yzerman blew an opportunity to do that then. Almost like he's a bad GM.

Again you'll have to take that up with the strawman lmfao, because I don't see why you thought I was arguing about this.

"Wherever I go, the strawman follows"

 

[Hodge]

Again you'll have to take that up with the strawman lmfao, because I don't see why you thought I was arguing about this.

"Wherever I go, the strawman follows"

You wrote that people who "believe you can reliably win in this league without draft lottery help" are "possibly delusional idealists." I was simply pointing out that the Vegas Golden Knights just won a Stanley Cup without any help from the draft lottery.

 

[Pavels Dog]

He has 15.475 Million tied into Chariot, Copp,and Compher all these players make this team better and puts them in a position of where they can't even get top picks and are stuck in the 6-12 range. Seems odd for a rebuilding team, he could have easily capitalized on that cap space to get more draft picks.

It's becoming increasingly worrying how poorly the Wings pro scouting draft evaluates UFA defenseman as well.

He is capitalizing on cap space to get more draft picks. Expect Perron, Kubalik, Sprong, Fischer etc. to be shopped at the TDL if Detroit isn't in a playoff position. They had 11 picks in this draft and they've already got extras for next year too.

For better or worse, Detroit's past the tanking stage. They didn't win a lottery. The other GMs who simply got lucky and won lotteries are now getting hyped as geniuses, while Yzerman who got unlucky is being criticized. It's what it is.

 

[Maple Leaf]

He got lucky drafting Russian

 

[WaW]

You wrote that people who "believe you can reliably win in this league without draft lottery help" are "possibly delusional idealists." I was simply pointing out that the Vegas Golden Knights just won a Stanley Cup without any help from the draft lottery.

...to which I literally immediately elaborated in thr next sentence to make very clear I was referring to lottery picks. Are you this petty, really?

Then you invented a video game fantasy trade of "Edvinsson, Vrana and a 1st" that never in a million years would have been accepted by Buffalo, and criticized Yzerman for not making it LOL

 

[Hodge]

...to which I literally immediately elaborated in thr next sentence to make very clear I was referring to lottery picks. Are you this petty, really?

Then you invented a video game fantasy trade of "Edvinsson, Vrana and a 1st" that never in a million years would have been accepted by Buffalo, and criticized Yzerman for not making it LOL

You think a 1st, Edvinsson and Vrana is a worse offer than a 1st, Krebs and Tuch would have been considered at the time? Swap Vrana with Bertuzzi then if that makes a difference. It was just an example of the type of trade Yzerman has failed to pursue in 4 years on the job. You have the war chest of prospects and picks. None of them apart from Seider look like they will develop into star players. It's time to start trading some of those non-Seider assets for stars or at least trying to.

 

[WaW]

You think a 1st, Edvinsson and Vrana is a worse offer than a 1st, Krebs and Tuch would have been considered at the time? Swap Vrana with Bertuzzi then if that makes a difference. It was just an example of the type of trade Yzerman has failed to pursue in 4 years on the job. You have the war chest of prospects and picks. None of them apart from Seider look like they will develop into star players. It's time to start trading some of those non-Seider assets for stars or at least trying to.

Tuch > Vrana and we're in the same division as Buffalo.

The trade was a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Tuch, and Krebs

Other than Larkin, we didn't have anyone as good as Tuch on the dumpster fire of a roster Holland left behind, and Krebs was NHL ready, for which Edvinsson was not at the time. They wanted a prospect who was close or ready and a top line player.

Try Larkin, Raymond, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Oh and that 1st wasn't lottery protected, so when we'd have inevitably finished even worse and potentially in the lottery picks because we'd have had no Larkin, Raymond or injured Eichel for most of the year, it would have been awful.

And then we'd be sitting in dumpster fire where Jack Eichel would quite literally be playing with Kubalik and Perron on our first f***ing line, lol.

Oh, and this all assumes Eichel would have reported and played here, for which at the time he was very picky as to where he'd go.

So no, there was no "good opportunity" to get Eichel.

You must work for Ferrari because you really need to "Stop Inventing"

 

[Hodge]

Tuch > Vrana and we're in the same division as Buffalo.

The trade was a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Tuch, and Krebs

Other than Larkin, we didn't have anyone as good as Tuch on the dumpster fire of a roster Holland left behind, and Krebs was NHL ready, for which Edvinsson was not at the time. They wanted a prospect who was close or ready and a top line player.

Try Larkin, Raymond, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Oh and that 1st wasn't lottery protected, so when we'd have inevitably finished even worse and potentially in the lottery picks because we'd have had no Larkin, Raymond or injured Eichel for most of the year, it would have been awful.

And then we'd be sitting in dumpster fire where Jack Eichel would quite literally be playing with Kubalik and Perron on our first f***ing line, lol.

Oh, and this all assumes Eichel would have reported and played here, for which at the time he was very picky as to where he'd go.

So no, there was no "good opportunity" to get Eichel.

You must work for Ferrari because you really need to "Stop Inventing"

Tuch was coming off two seasons where he scored at a 42 point pace at the time of the trade. He was on par with Vrana and Bertuzzi as an asset.

Peyton Krebs has never been NHL ready. He's still not NHL ready. Picking him over Edvinsson when you're a team as bad as the Sabres were would have been a fireable offense.

Eichel lacked trade protection and he's played and lived in the Detroit area before. Selling him on the Wings vision is part of being a GM. It's not like he had any recourse to hold out without losing millions either.

DeBrincat is another guy who we know is willing to sign with the Red Wings. Why did Yzerman refuse to acquire him then sign an older mediocre redundant forward like Compher? If the plan was just to out and out tank for the foreseeable future, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it but at least it would be a plan. That doesn't seem to be the case though since he extended Larkin and keeps signing UFAs to expensive long term contracts.

There doesn't seem to be any vision beyond "hope we win a lottery." Yes of course it's harder to build a team without lottery luck but that is literally his job. It would also be much easier to win a lottery going forward if he had traded Larkin. There's no coherent plan here.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

This has the same look and feel as the Oilers when they tried to pull themselves out of the rebuild phase with the Hall/Eberle core. They went and signed guys like Eric Belanger and Andrew Farrence to similar deals and we all know how that story played out

 

[Seider and Donuts]

You can argue about 3…but 5 sure is.

1. I wouldn't call five long term, but three isn't even an argument...

2. Realistic "Replacements" for the 2C and 3C roles that Copp (4 years) and Compher (5 years) will occupy are Kasper and Danielson. Kasper is likely not getting 9+ this year and Danielson is likely 2+ years away.

So that conveniently leaves Copp expiring the same year Kasper's ELC expires and the same with Compher/Danielson. Essentially, Yzerman added depth (Even if it cost too much) and didn't do shit to hurt our cap structure.

This goes the same way with Chiarot and Holl's god awful contracts expiring right around the same time Edvinsson and Wallinder (And maybe ASP) should be in the league and coming off their ELCs. (ASP probably at least 5 years from being off an ELC)

Do I like a few of these contracts? No. But cap really doesn't mean shit to Detroit for the foreseeable future, so if Chris Ilitch wants to blow money, more power to him.

 

[WaW]

Tuch was coming off two seasons where he scored at a 42 point pace at the time of the trade. He was on par with Vrana and Bertuzzi as an asset.

Peyton Krebs has never been NHL ready. He's still not NHL ready. Picking him over Edvinsson when you're a team as bad as the Sabres were would have been a fireable offense.

Eichel lacked trade protection and he's played and lived in the Detroit area before. Selling him on the Wings vision is part of being a GM. It's not like he had any recourse to hold out without losing millions either.

DeBrincat is another guy who we know is willing to sign with the Red Wings. Why did Yzerman refuse to acquire him then sign an older mediocre redundant forward like Compher? If the plan was just to out and out tank for the foreseeable future, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it but at least it would be a plan. That doesn't seem to be the case though since he extended Larkin and keeps signing UFAs to expensive long term contracts.

There doesn't seem to be any vision beyond "hope we win a lottery." Yes of course it's harder to build a team without lottery luck but that is literally his job. It would also be much easier to win a lottery going forward if he had traded Larkin. There's no coherent plan here.

Debrincat isn't worth the 9 million dollars a year he wants lol. Thay would be far worse than 5x5 for Compher. His numbers without Patrick Kane driving offense for him leave a metric shit ton to be desired for a guy who wants 8 years between 8 and 9 million per.

Detroit has fallen in the lottery more than any other franchise since the lottery was reintroduced, you can't just "trade Larkin and hope you win one". We had one of the all time worst teams in league history in 2019-20 and couldn't even win it then.

I'd really like for you to explain what you would have done instead, by actually proposing an actual reasonable Eichel trade that includes Larkin, Raymond, and a 1st going the other way like what 100% would have had to happen in a within-division trade.

I'm sorry but I just don't see how it would be any better if we acquired Eichel. Eichel would just want out like he did from Buffalo.

Sometimes things just suck and there's nothing you can do. That's the spot Yzerman has been in since 2019.

f*** everything about idealist nonsense, it breeds terrible takes like "Yzerman could have traded for Eichel!!!!" This site sorely lacks pragmatic thinkers.

 

[surixon]

I can't say I care much for the team he's constructed. Also not sure how many years more you give this rebuild. They are in year 7 from the start of falling into the top 10 in terms of draft picks. Year 5 from Sieder if you want to officially start from there.

 

[Hodge]

Sometimes things just suck and there's nothing you can do. That's the spot Yzerman has been in since 2019.

This is such a loser mentality that I wouldn't want my GM to have. There are always things you can do to improve.

Acting like the Wings would have needed to include Larkin and Raymond in an Eichel deal is insane. They just needed to beat the Vegas offer and I don't understand how anyone can think Krebs is remotely comparable to Edvinsson as a prospect. Buffalo would have been crazy not to accept something similar to that trade.

When Yzerman first took over I agree the only rational course of action was waiting out the Nielsen, Helm, Abdelkader, DeKeyeser and Ericsson contracts while accumulating assets. Once that phase was complete he should have either gone in the direction of a complete teardown by trading Larkin and Bertuzzi at peak value or decided to build around those two, Seider and Raymond by moving prospects and picks for impact players in that 20-25 age range (Reinhart, Eichel, Chychrun, DeBrincat, Tkachuk and Dubois come to mind). So far he has done neither.

 

[abo9]

I voted no, but I think I voted too quick - he accumulated a multitude of early draft picks develop (12 second rounders in 5 years, 7 first rounders). Its obviously a very long game, but hes not hampering the team in the process.

He's obviously above average imo. He doesnt get taken to the cleaners, and his FA signings wont hamper the team in the long run.

In fact, he recently acquired even more quality futures for Bertuzzi (pending FA) and Hronek (at peak value). Boston's 1st is in 2024... ! Also, A lot of GMs just would have sat on a Hronek while his value goes down again.

Idk if he's as astute as he looked in TB, the length of the Detroit rebuild makes me think he's closer to the average GM than the top, but he wasnt working with much 4-5 years ago and needs to "grow" value from basically nothing - no quality vets to draw value from of quality rentals.

I think Detroit's rebuild from when he took over will end up 7years to 10 years long, but they'll come out of it a decade + long contender with plenty of assets to continue being co.oetitive.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I can't say I care much for the team he's constructed. Also not sure how many years more you give this rebuild. They are in year 7 from the start of falling into the top 10 in terms of draft picks. Year 5 from Sieder if you want to officially start from there.

Name a faster rebuild that didn't include winning lotteries.

 

[WaW]

This is such a loser mentality that I wouldn't want my GM to have. There are always things you can do to improve.

Acting like the Wings would have needed to include Larkin and Raymond in an Eichel deal is insane. They just needed to beat the Vegas offer and I don't understand how anyone can think Krebs is remotely comparable to Edvinsson as a prospect. Buffalo would have been crazy not to accept something similar to that trade.

When Yzerman first took over I agree the only rational course of action was waiting out the Nielsen, Helm, Abdelkader, DeKeyeser and Ericsson contracts while accumulating assets. Once that phase was complete he should have either gone in the direction of a complete teardown by trading Larkin and Bertuzzi at peak value or decided to build around those two, Seider and Raymond by moving prospects and picks for impact players in that 20-25 age range (Reinhart, Eichel, Chychrun, DeBrincat, Tkachuk and Dubois come to mind). So far he has done neither.

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall, but this brick wall is completely inventing a hypothetical that Yzerman both should have, and easily could have acquired Eichel. It's f***ing ludicrous. It's revisionist history. Literally no one ever thought Detroit was a legitimate player for Eichel, there's absolutely no reason why Eichel ever would have suited up for a team further behind in their rebuild than Buffalo were, and you're completely forgetting that Buffalo and Detroit are in the same decision.

Once you're willing to say "my bad dude, my apples to hand grenades comparison was ridiculous and I shouldn't have gone down that path" then I'll happily discuss this like grown ups. But until then, this is a useless waste of time.

 

[jetsforever]

Yes, just give it some time

 

[MessierII]

Fact of the matter is there are no consistently good or bad GM’s. Its all very circumstantial.