Is standup goaltending dead ?

[VaughanBender72]

with brodeur out in the next year I truly think standup goaltending won't exist anymore. anybody know if there is some good standup goaltenders in the CHL and AHL that could give a rebirth to the style ?

 

[Disengage]

Standup goaltending has been dead and buried for a long time. Kirk McLean was probably the most recent goalie that could be considered a standup.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

First, I wouldn't call Brodeur a true standup. Off the top of my head, the last pure standup goaltender in the league was either McLean or Ranford (and even McLean didn't define himself as "standup", but rather "inverted V").

I would say that the current wave of goaltenders doesn't have a pure butterfly goaltender among them, either - they use the butterfly technique when it's appropriate, and other techniques when they are appropriate.

If you think about it, "butterfly" is a save style. Defining yourself as a "butterfly" goaltender is immediately prohibitive.

Really, the most appropriate way to categorize goaltenders these days - and it would be a lot of work - would be to look at a variety of typical save situations, and cataloging the goaltender's response. For instance, unscreened shot low to the stick side, and Goaltender X uses a butterfly save technique 80% of the time.

 

[gudzilla]

didn't dallas have an AHL goaltender that stood up more than most? vokoun played a pretty hybrid style... i think the young guys drop way too fast now, but considering the way they play and how big they are, i guess its the way to go

 

[jameswrjobe53]

Chiodo?

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

If I remember correctly, wasn't Vokoun playing stand-up with the Pens during the 2013 playoffs?

 

[JA]

With the technical proficiency of today's goaltenders, standup is truly extinct. It will not resurface. Standup requires reflexes over technical positioning; with the speed of today's game, standup goaltending as a discipline is obsolete.

Watching Kirk McLean in much of my old footage, there are many times when he has no idea how to react to certain plays. Pucks might get caught in his skates or he might try to close his five-hole awkwardly on a long slap shot. There are times when he would fall on his rear end in desperation to prevent the puck from trickling past him. Instead of dropping into the butterfly on a long shot, standup goaltenders extend their leg and kick the puck out. They slide around on their skates and move with less stability. There are an abundance of technical flaws in the standup style that make it less reliable than the butterfly style. The goaltender needs quick reflexes and good anticipation. The butterfly style is predictable; as long as the goaltender is technically sound, the shooter has few options. Every type of situation has a proper, calculated response. With standup, there is so much more room for error. As unique as it would be to see a goaltender play that way, it would be very difficult for that goaltender to succeed.

A goaltender can borrow some standup techniques to give themselves more variety, but standup primarily as a style is not effective compared to the butterfly.

 

[Eisen]

First, I wouldn't call Brodeur a true standup. Off the top of my head, the last pure standup goaltender in the league was either McLean or Ranford (and even McLean didn't define himself as "standup", but rather "inverted V").

I would say that the current wave of goaltenders doesn't have a pure butterfly goaltender among them, either - they use the butterfly technique when it's appropriate, and other techniques when they are appropriate.

If you think about it, "butterfly" is a save style. Defining yourself as a "butterfly" goaltender is immediately prohibitive.

Really, the most appropriate way to categorize goaltenders these days - and it would be a lot of work - would be to look at a variety of typical save situations, and cataloging the goaltender's response. For instance, unscreened shot low to the stick side, and Goaltender X uses a butterfly save technique 80% of the time.

I always saw Brodeur as a standup.
And could you also please explain with what you mean there is no butterfly? Is butterfly not the same as profly? A guy like Luongo or Lundqvist drops to his knees when he hears a puck touching a stick. I always considered that butterfly/profly.

 

[Terry Yake]

pretty sure stand-up goaltending has been dead for years

McLean was the last one i remember who was a true stand-up goalie

 

[Michael Farkas]

Alex Stalock is about as close as you get today, unfortunately.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I always saw Brodeur as a standup.
And could you also please explain with what you mean there is no butterfly? Is butterfly not the same as profly? A guy like Luongo or Lundqvist drops to his knees when he hears a puck touching a stick. I always considered that butterfly/profly.

What I mean is that "butterfly" should ideally be a type of save, not an overall style of goaltending. None of today's goaltenders use the butterfly exclusively (or even predominantly) in my opinion.

 

[sr edler]

Watching Kirk McLean in much of my old footage, there are many times when he has no idea how to react to certain plays.

Every time I watch old footage of the 94 SC finals I can't decide what feels more old school, Kirk McLean's standup style or MacTavish skating around without a helmet.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Standup is dead and buried. It's a matter of plain fact that it's not the most effective way to play the position.

I think we're seeing more of a move to horizontally-oriented goaltenders now. The big Giguere-style butterfly guys aren't quite as dominant as they were a decade ago, supplanted by more a athletic and versatile style inspired by Hasek. Jonathan Quick is probably the most prominent example of a goalie who frequently plays with his paddle horizontally along the ice, but guys like Tim Thomas and Anton Khudobin have had some success with similar methods recently.

 

[Michael Farkas]

What I mean is that "butterfly" should ideally be a type of save, not an overall style of goaltending. None of today's goaltenders use the butterfly exclusively (or even predominantly) in my opinion.

It's not really pure butterfly...it's basically just a goalie that doesn't really know what he's doing dropping to his knees on every shot, but Jonas Hiller drops on every shot. Steve Mason, he of the goofy-handedness, also kind of plops down without a ton of battle to get back into the play.

But yeah, these blocking wall guys like Giguere have been weeded out a bit here, haven't they?

You seen Alex Stalock from San Jose, Doc?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

You seen Alex Stalock from San Jose, Doc?

I like watching Stalock a lot - and he's definitely on the "standup" side of the spectrum among the current crop of NHL goalers. He's just fun to watch.

From my impressions, he uses the half butterfly a lot more than most goaltenders (as opposed to the full), and when he does use the full butterfly, it's often as a means of transportation (getting quickly across the crease laterally).

 

[Big Phil]

Anyone else think Sean Burke was more of a stand-up as well? He played pretty good late in his career, having that great season in 2002 where he came close to the Hart and Vezina.

Roman Turek, for how long he lasted, was a stand up.

Brodeur honestly had his own style. It was neither stand up or butterfly. I honestly don't know why that wasn't copied more. He also had the smallest pads in the NHL.

Richter certainly wasn't a stand up, although he retired in 2003.

Neither was Joseph.

Thomas for sure wasn't one. Sort of a cross between Hasek and Gump Worsley if that makes sense.

Fleury I wouldn't call a butterfly. Almost more like Fuhr in net, sort of a modern version of him. Definitely relies on reflexes as much as any goalie in the NHL. Wouldn't at all be shocked if he wins the Vezina this year.

So I think there are still some effective non-butterfly styles out there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Anyone else think Sean Burke was more of a stand-up as well? He played pretty good late in his career, having that great season in 2002 where he came close to the Hart and Vezina.

Yeah, he had a retro feel by the end of his career. Interesting that he went on to become a goalie coach at the NHL level, must have been a student of the position even though he was a bit of a throwback.

 

[nabby12]

Nabokov is as close to a standup as there is these days. He still makes a lot of saves standing up!