Is John Tavares starting to slip?

[Regal]

Honestly, if you put Sundin's career in Arizona do you see that player being slam dunk Hall of Fame'r?

He was getting in because career totals. But Leafs career absolutely boosted his stature.

I don’t think it would change anything really. It’s not like he got in because the Leafs were a dynasty like a Glenn Anderson with the Oilers. It boosted his star status, sure, but that’s different. I don’t think Sundin was a “controversial” HOFer for many people other than Leaf haters of those who have a poor grasp of where the standards are.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Mats scored 94 points at the peak of the dead puck era and was PPG otherwise. He's a clear tier above Tavares who has never been over PPG and played in a higher scoring era.

If I had to pick I'm definitely taking Mats but I wouldn't say he was a full tier better, just slightly better mostly because of intangibles like being impossible to move off the puck and clutch play in big moments. But they do have similar production throughout their careers. Tavares actually has more points per game and definitely has a couple of seasons with more than a PPG.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

You know Tavares was over a PPG and second in league scoring in 2014/15? Also 4th by PPG game in 2013/14(Broken leg at the Olympics). Tavares was at or above PPG 5 times, and missed PPG 2 other times by a single point.

Sundin and Tavares have similar peaks/prime, with Sundin not falling off as hard as Tavares has post 30.

Very similar late stage career numbers actually. Sundin was more consistent though.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

4x8 probably gets it done if you sign him now

Yikes, that would make him 42 at the end of the deal. For me, he either takes a Spezza type deal or it's a goodbye with a laurel and a hardy handshake .Notthing personal, they just have other gaps to fill.

 

[Plural]

I don’t think it would change anything really. It’s not like he got in because the Leafs were a dynasty like a Glenn Anderson with the Oilers. It boosted his star status, sure, but that’s different. I don’t think Sundin was a “controversial” HOFer for many people other than Leaf haters of those who have a poor grasp of where the standards are.

Hmm...you might be right. I may have fallen in to bias trap. What are some comparable Hall of Fame centers that got in and were not controversial? Sundin was PPG for 1350 games. Also 500+ goals. That does sound like a good Hall of Fame resume.

 

[Folignos Helmet]

Why can’t he take the Matt Duchene contract if he really wants to stay.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

That’s my point, Sundin has the one big season and then a bunch of “what if” seasons because we never saw him with elite wingers consistently, Tavares had the “what if” answered and it wasn’t that impressive. If he stayed PPG on the island with whatever flavor of the week grinder Lou picked up, he’d have the “what if” benefit of the doubt still.

"The big season" was 92-93 when it felt like every player was a 100+ point player. Take away that one year and Tavares pulls ahead even further in career regular season production, I'm still taking Sundin though if forced to choose.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993_skaters.html#stats::points

 

[Martin Skoula]

"The big season" was 92-93 when it felt like every player was a 100+ point player. Take away that one year and Tavares pulls ahead even further in career regular season production, I'm still taking Sundin though if forced to choose.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993_skaters.html#stats::points

I get the scoring levels that year were an anomaly, I’m just saying the question of “what does Sundin look like with all-star calibre linemates” was answered with a big season early on and then it was mostly him with C tier grinders other than Mogilny and Roberts. I can see people looking at his early peak and international career and saying there’s more to him than just 30+ goals and PPG every year, he could have flirted with 100 more often with elite wingers.

Tavares has had nothing but elite wingers his entire time in Toronto, there’s no questions about what he could have achieved in a better situation. There’s no mystery for people doing the rankings to gamble on, what you see is the realistic upside he’s capable of short of playing on a full run and gun basement team with one elite line and no expectation to backcheck.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I get the scoring levels that year were an anomaly, I’m just saying the question of “what does Sundin look like with all-star calibre linemates” was answered with a big season early on and then it was mostly him with C tier grinders other than Mogilny and Roberts. I can see people looking at his early peak and international career and saying there’s more to him than just 30+ goals and PPG every year, he could have flirted with 100 more often with elite wingers.

Tavares has had nothing but elite wingers his entire time in Toronto, there’s no questions about what he could have achieved in a better situation. There’s no mystery for people doing the rankings to gamble on, what you see is the realistic upside he’s capable of short of playing on a full run and gun basement team with one elite line and no expectation to backcheck.

Definitely correct. It was a long standing complaint that Mats never truly had proper wingers to play with.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Why can’t he take the Matt Duchene contract if he really wants to stay.

Isn't Duchene still being paid by Nashville?

 

[The Shadow]

starting? his career immediately went to shit the second he put on a Maple Leafs sweater.

You mean the season he had career high in goals for the leafs ?

 

[JPT]

Not to be too pessimistic or anything, but from the moment we are born we all are beginning to d̶i̶e̶ slip.

 

[AvroArrow]

For fans who don’t understand why Sundin was a controversial HHOF induction, maybe Tavares will help you understand.

Yes, over 1300 points in his career, point per game and captained team Sweden to an Olympic Gold medal, a team that featured Lidstrom/Forsberg/Alfredsson, that elected Sundin as their captain.

Clueless.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yes, over 1300 points in his career, point per game and captained team Sweden to an Olympic Gold medal, a team that featured Lidstrom/Forsberg/Alfredsson, that elected Sundin as their captain.

Clueless.

You realize Tavares is likely going to pass 1300 points, also won an Olympic gold, and that the only Olympics played during his career his team was captained by a peak Sidney Crosby? Sundin would not have captained Team Canada either.

Basically your post says the key difference between them is nationality.

 

[shaner8989]

starting? his career immediately went to shit the second he put on a Maple Leafs sweater.

lol you sir have incredibly poor hockey knowledge

He has better stats with Tor then the Isles

0.93 PPG with NYI
0.95 PPG with Tor

Nice try tho

 

[JianYang]

If I had to pick I'm definitely taking Mats but I wouldn't say he was a full tier better, just slightly better mostly because of intangibles like being impossible to move off the puck and clutch play in big moments. But they do have similar production throughout their careers. Tavares actually has more points per game and definitely has a couple of seasons with more than a PPG.

I'd take sundin as well. You touched on him being difficult to move. This becomes a very valuable trait in big games where real estate is at a premium.

Sundin was the more dynamic player. He was more of a quarterback than Tavares is and those are the guys that make me most uncomfortable as an opposing fan.

 

[leafsfan5]

Tavares was never a top 10 player.

This is crazy. People underrate Tavares' career because his peak was during the 2nd coming of the dead puck era and depress his numbers

Between 12/13 - 15/16 he was 7th in total points, 6th in total goals and 4th in PPG

During that timeframe you have a better argument for putting him in your top 5 than saying he's outside of the top 10

 

[Goose]

I’d take Sundin over Tavares, but it’s close.

Tavares is one of his generation’s most consistent point producers, and one of the best goal scorers in NHL history when you factor consistency and longevity.

He’s not in Ovi/Matthews tier, or even Stamkos/Pasta, but he’s the tier below that with Kane, and he’s sat there for a long time racking up goals in a way that’s difficult to do. He’ll probably finish between Top 20 and Top 50 all time for goals.

He scores more on a per game pace than Kane even and may finish with a higher career goal total than Kane, though it’ll be close.

 

[hamzarocks]

I’d take Sundin over Tavares, but it’s close.

Tavares is one of his generation’s most consistent point producers, and one of the best goal scorers in NHL history when you factor consistency and longevity.

He’s not in Ovi/Matthews tier, or even Stamkos/Pasta, but he’s the tier below that with Kane, and he’s sat there for a long time racking up goals in a way that’s difficult to do. He’ll probably finish between Top 20 and Top 50 all time for goals.

He scores more on a per game pace than Kane even and may finish with a higher career goal total than Kane, though it’ll be close.

Are you serious?

Patrick kane is the 4th best player from the 2006-2018 drafted era

Crosby, OV, malkin, kane

Tavares is no where Patrick Kane.

Peak, Prime, Career, playoffs, cups, etc. Kane shits on tavares.

Tavares compares to Giroux, Backstrom tier players

 

[seafoam]

Tavares is an emotionless robot which is why he has been so consistent his whole career yet never really had any highs or lows.

You turn him on by inserting an energy emitting amulet in the locker room and unplugging it to charge after the game.

 

[Goose]

Are you serious?

Patrick kane is the 4th best player from the 2006-2018 drafted era

Crosby, OV, malkin, kane

Tavares is no where Patrick Kane.

Peak, Prime, Career, playoffs, cups, etc. Kane shits on tavares.

Tavares compares to Giroux, Backstrom tier players

I was talking about goal scoring specifically and the stats are that he scores goals at a slightly better pace than Kane on a goals per game metric, and may finish with more overall depending how their careers finish.

Of course Kane is a different tier overall player but I don’t think people give Tavares his due as a goal scorer, they just see the robot point producer at a very good, but not elite pace of slightly below point per game.

 

[JackSlater]

The way people talk about Tavares is so odd, you'd think he just loafed around his whole career as teammates sometimes banked goals off him.

 

[Regal]

lol you sir have incredibly poor hockey knowledge

He has better stats with Tor then the Isles

0.93 PPG with NYI
0.95 PPG with Tor

Nice try tho

It didn’t go to shit, but his numbers with Toronto are definitely worse given the scoring environments. 0.95 PPG isn’t close to being better than 0.93 PPG in the early and mid 2010s. And obviously his Isles numbers include a few years before he reached his prime.

 

[leafsfan5]

Tavares is an emotionless robot which is why he has been so consistent his whole career yet never really had any highs or lows.

You turn him on by inserting an energy emitting amulet in the locker room and unplugging it to charge after the game.

He has had elite highs, they just don't look as such because he played in a low scoring environment for a majority of his prime

He's finished 3rd in goals 2x, 2nd in points in 14-15, finished top 3 in MVP voting 2x

 

[Regal]

I get the scoring levels that year were an anomaly, I’m just saying the question of “what does Sundin look like with all-star calibre linemates” was answered with a big season early on and then it was mostly him with C tier grinders other than Mogilny and Roberts. I can see people looking at his early peak and international career and saying there’s more to him than just 30+ goals and PPG every year, he could have flirted with 100 more often with elite wingers.

Tavares has had nothing but elite wingers his entire time in Toronto, there’s no questions about what he could have achieved in a better situation. There’s no mystery for people doing the rankings to gamble on, what you see is the realistic upside he’s capable of short of playing on a full run and gun basement team with one elite line and no expectation to backcheck.

I don’t think that’s fair. Tavares’ first year in Toronto was by far his best season 5v5 in terms of production because he finally had an elite running mate in Marner. His overall production didn’t increase though because Babcock split the PP time. If he had an elite running mate in his prime Isles year and was getting normal star PP time/role like he was then, he probably would have had decently better production. Since that first year in Toronto, he’s started to decline as a player.