Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

I see this a lot on HF where people refer to Hasek as "the best goalie of all time" and I have never really thought that. I feel like Hasek gets overrated a lot simply because his peak was so dominant. I didn't watch hockey when he was at his best so I can't fully appreciate his talent, but does anyone feel that guys like Roy, Brodeur, Sawchuk, etc. who kept up great play for longer periods of time, whereas Hasek lost his job to Osgood later in his career, don't get enough credit when compared to Hasek? I feel like Hasek gets way too much credit.

Maybe it's just me.

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[kmad]

An easy case for Hasek over Brodeur and Roy is that Hasek won all of his Vezinas (and both his Harts and both his Pearsons) while playing directly against those two.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Hasek was out of this world good at his peak.

How can you be overrated because you were so dominant?

Maybe he didn't last as long as some others but his peak was craaaazy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree that Hasek can be overrated by the "save percentage" crowd. It is becoming canon in some places that he is the best goalie of all time, period, and I think that is simply not the case. Patrick Roy and Jacques Plante both have very good cases as the best goalie of all time, and I'd probably take them both over Hasek by the slimmest of margins, though I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for having Hasek #1. Terry Sawchuk has a case over Hasek too, if you only look at peak performance and value playoffs extremely highly.

Glenn Hall and Martin Brodeur were consistently elite goalies for a long period of time, but I don't think either can really touch Hasek in terms of peak, so it's a stretch to rank either one over him IMO.

However, the fact that Hasek lost his starting job to Osgood shouldn't be used against him at all. He was well into his 40s by this time. Patrick Roy retired at 37.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

An easy case for Hasek over Brodeur and Roy is that Hasek won all of his Vezinas (and both his Harts and both his Pearsons) while playing directly against those two.

It's an easy, but incomplete case, considering Roy's statistical prime was the late 80s*, and any case he has to be #1 values his playoff performances very highly. And that Brodeur is 7 years younger than Hasek and was likely just entering his prime when Hasek was leaving his.

*someone calculated save % vs. the rest of the league, and Roy had a peak in the late 80s where he led the field almost as much as Hasek did in the mid 90s, albeit against weaker competition.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

does anyone feel that guys like Roy, Brodeur, Sawchuk, etc. who kept up great play for longer periods of time,

Just because Hasek wasn't being dominant in the NHL for his entire career, that doesn't mean that he wasn't dominant for a long period of time.

 

[kmad]

Hasek's dominance at the 1998 Olympics should be the crown on his resume.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hasek's dominance at the 1998 Olympics should be the crown on his resume.

It was dominance, but was it really more dominant than Roy? Didn't the Czech Republic actually outshoot Canada in the famous semifinal game?

The difference between Hasek and Roy in 1998 was basically a single shot in a shootout.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

It was dominance, but was it really more dominant than Roy? Didn't the Czech Republic actually outshoot Canada in the famous semifinal game?

The difference between Hasek and Roy in 1998 was basically a single shot in a shootout.

That's correct - shots were in the Czechs' favor by a 28-25 margin.

 

[kmad]

The difference between Hasek and Roy in 1998 was basically a single shot in a shootout.

That's hardly accurate. Canada's team was miles better in all areas. Roy had truckloads of support - Hasek had nothing but Jagr. The difference in that one game might be slightly in Hasek's favor but there is no way that holds true throughout the tournament.

I can't find the tournament statistics right now but I do remember that Hasek's stats blew Roy's out of the water. I dug them up for a previous argument once. Let me know if you can find them.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I can't find the tournament statistics right now but I do remember that Hasek's stats blew Roy's out of the water. I dug them up for a previous argument once. Let me know if you can find them.

I would imagine anyone with a SIHR account could find them easily.

But I'm not interested in their stats for the whole tournament. I'm interested in their stats for the whole tournament, minus the bronze medal game when a disinterested Canada got blown out.

 

[MXD]

That one gets a great big no from me.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I would imagine anyone with a SIHR account could find them easily.

Or anyone who can find my site

Hasek:
02/13/98: W (60m, 17/17) 3-0 victory vs. Finland (Myllys).
02/15/98: W (60m, 21/23) 8-2 victory vs. Kazakhstan (Yeremeyev, Shimin).
02/16/98: L (60m, 29/31) 1-2 defeat at Russia (Shtalenkov).
02/18/98: W (60m, 38/39) 4-1 victory vs. United States (Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, Richter) [Quarterfinals].
02/20/98: W (70m, 24/25) 2-1 SO (5/5) victory vs. Canada (Roy) [Semifinals].
02/22/98: W (60m, 20/20) 1-0 victory vs. Russia (Shtalenkov) [Gold-Medal Game].

Roy:
02/13/98: W (60m, 18/18) 5-0 victory vs. Belarus (Mezin).
02/14/98: W (60m, 27/29) 3-2 victory vs. Sweden (Salo).
02/16/98: W (60m, 31/32) 4-1 victory vs. United States (Richter).
02/18/98: W (60m, 16/17) 4-1 victory vs. Kazakhstan (Yeremeyev) [Quarterfinals].
02/20/98: L (70m, 27/28) 1-2 SO (3/4) defeat vs. Czech Republic (Hasek) [Semifinals].
02/21/98: L (60m, 12/15) 2-3 defeat vs. Finland (Sulander) [Bronze-Medal Game].

 

[BostonAJ]

I'm in the 'Hasek is #1' crowd. Roy was more technically proficient, but Hasek played like he'd rather lose a limb than allow a goal. Easily the most exciting goalie to watch that I've ever seen. It's not easy for a goalie to be widely regarded as the best player in the world. Only goalie to win the Hart twice (and the Lindsay/Pearson).

 

[kmad]

But I'm not interested in their stats for the whole tournament. I'm interested in their stats for the whole tournament, minus the bronze medal game when a disinterested Canada got blown out.

You can't pick and choose statistics. If Roy was as elite as Hasek, he should be able to bail out a lackluster team for one game, as Hasek did night in and night out for several seasons in Buffalo.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Yes he is. There is no logical argument for him not being the best ever. The only arguements are for guys who played on stacked teams for longer periods of time, both seasons, and games per season, yet none match his 6 Vezina trophies, or his 2 Hart trophies. No one matches his statistical dominance in save percentage. Whether people like it or not save percentage is the most important statistic for comparing goalies. Yes there are many factors which determine a goalies save percentage...but there are even more that determine GAA and wins, etc. There really is no reason to believe Hasek wasn't the best goalie ever...IMO that is.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

The brodeurisafraud blog has a detailed analysis of the Hasek/Roye/Brodeur debate:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/03/brodeur-roy-and-hasek-debate-rages-on.html

 

[jkrx]

I don't remember Hasek having a "statue of liberty"-moment. Edge Hasek.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You can't pick and choose statistics. If Roy was as elite as Hasek, he should be able to bail out a lackluster team for one game, as Hasek did night in and night out for several seasons in Buffalo.

No, you can't just take all stats at face value. Roy cared about as much about the bronze medal game as the rest of his team did. That is to say, marginally more than a preseason NHL game. It was obvious to anyone who watched.

(Now if you want to use the fact that Roy insisted on playing the bronze game over a young and fresh Brodeur who might have actually put his all into it, that's another story).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The brodeurisafraud blog has a detailed analysis of the Hasek/Roye/Brodeur debate:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/03/brodeur-roy-and-hasek-debate-rages-on.html

And it's a completely unbiased source that doesn't just throw away arguments and statistics that go against its original premises (Hasek is god, Brodeur is overrated).

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Also I think Roy is the clear cut 2nd best goalie ever. 3 Conn Smythes being the main reason.

 

[seventieslord]

I agree that Hasek can be overrated by the "save percentage" crowd. It is becoming canon in some places that he is the best goalie of all time, period, and I think that is simply not the case. Patrick Roy and Jacques Plante both have very good cases as the best goalie of all time, and I'd probably take them both over Hasek by the slimmest of margins

I don't think it is being canonized at all. it seems that most of us agree that the three of them are all remarkably close.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

If you give any credit to Hasek's career before coming to the NHL, I don't think there is much debate, because in reality he has an incredible career and longevity to go with his unsurpassed dominance in his prime.

Hasek was literally the youngest professional hockey player in history, and now he is one of the oldest.

 

[unknown33]

And it's a completely unbiased source that doesn't just throw away arguments and statistics that go against its original premises (Hasek is god, Brodeur is overrated).

And this makes things stated there wrong?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

And this makes things stated there wrong?

That site has a lot of merit - but the site name is off-putting and reeks of bias, even though I do think it has a lot of great content.