Incentive to cheer for a loss

[TheOtherOne]

This is sort of a tank thread, but it's not really a tank thread. I don't want to argue about whether tanking happens, or whether it is effective, or whether it is or should be rewarded. All that stuff is debatable but not the point.

As a Red Wings fan, I've become acquainted with the phenomenon of fans cheering for losses. I go to a fan forum, wanting to be happy about beating the pants off the Pens, and encounter a bunch of people who are mad that we won. I understand their reasoning given the draft rules, but I think it's a counter-intuitive and frankly very annoying way to "cheer". I think the league should do something, not necessarily to discourage "tanking", but to give fans incentive to cheer for a win every individual game.

At the same time, bad teams need to receive assistance in the form of better draft picks. These two goals are generally at odds and hard to reconcile. I want us to try to brainstorm possible ways to fix the one problem without creating another. It's hard, but let's be creative. Some things will seem gimmicky, but I think that's okay as long as it accomplishes the two goals.

Idea: Draft positions are determined by the standings after game #60. This is enough time to see which teams are bad enough to need draft picks, but there is enough time remaining that most teams can still have a hope of making the playoffs. After game #60, each win gives you a lottery ball. At the draft, lottery balls are used to potentially move you up or down one spot.
- Reason to cheer for a win before game #60: Hope of making the playoffs. Reason to cheer for a win after game #60: Possible better draft pick.
- Not perfect, because in some cases people will cheer for a loss before game #60 if they already know their team is bad enough early on. However I think having that issue earlier in the season is an improvement on the current situation.

Possible modification: Before the season, the league picks a random number between 41 and 60. This number determines the cutoff game, and is not made known until the draft.
- Now there is no way of knowing when the draft positions are set, so on game 50 for example, fans don't know if they should tank it for a better pick, or win it for a better chance at moving up.

Other possibilities: The game number (or randomized range) can be tweaked to get the best results. Maybe the lottery can move you up or down 2 spots instead of 1. Maybe instead of "lottery" it is a simple function: If you have more wins than the team above you, you move up in the draft (with a limit of 1 or 2 spots).

Summary: This is just a starting point for brainstorming, I know my ideas are not perfect but I think they're a step in the right direction. Try to come up with some creative modifications or other ideas. Remember the two goals:
1: Fans should ideally cheer for a win for each and every individual game.
2: Team that had a poor season should, in general, be helped with better draft picks.

Click to read more...

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ehh.. what about a team that goes through really bad injuries and for some reason find themselves in the bottom 10 at game #60, but then get healthy and go on a huge run and make the playoffs as well as getting some of the best draft odds?

Also while tanking is an idea among fans, players and coaches don't really know much else than trying to win. The teams that suck, simply suck. Any system that rewards teams that are simply better, punishes those bad teams that truly need the top picks.

 

[Redder Winger]

This is sort of a tank thread, but it's not really a tank thread. I don't want to argue about whether tanking happens, or whether it is effective, or whether it is or should be rewarded. All that stuff is debatable but not the point.

As a Red Wings fan, I've become acquainted with the phenomenon of fans cheering for losses. I go to a fan forum, wanting to be happy about beating the pants off the Pens, and encounter a bunch of people who are mad that we won. I understand their reasoning given the draft rules, but I think it's a counter-intuitive and frankly very annoying way to "cheer". I think the league should do something, not necessarily to discourage "tanking", but to give fans incentive to cheer for a win every individual game.

At the same time, bad teams need to receive assistance in the form of better draft picks. These two goals are generally at odds and hard to reconcile. I want us to try to brainstorm possible ways to fix the one problem without creating another. It's hard, but let's be creative. Some things will seem gimmicky, but I think that's okay as long as it accomplishes the two goals.

Idea: Draft positions are determined by the standings after game #60. This is enough time to see which teams are bad enough to need draft picks, but there is enough time remaining that most teams can still have a hope of making the playoffs. After game #60, each win gives you a lottery ball. At the draft, lottery balls are used to potentially move you up or down one spot.
- Reason to cheer for a win before game #60: Hope of making the playoffs. Reason to cheer for a win after game #60: Possible better draft pick.
- Not perfect, because in some cases people will cheer for a loss before game #60 if they already know their team is bad enough early on. However I think having that issue earlier in the season is an improvement on the current situation.

Possible modification: Before the season, the league picks a random number between 41 and 60. This number determines the cutoff game, and is not made known until the draft.
- Now there is no way of knowing when the draft positions are set, so on game 50 for example, fans don't know if they should tank it for a better pick, or win it for a better chance at moving up.

Other possibilities: The game number (or randomized range) can be tweaked to get the best results. Maybe the lottery can move you up or down 2 spots instead of 1. Maybe instead of "lottery" it is a simple function: If you have more wins than the team above you, you move up in the draft (with a limit of 1 or 2 spots).

Summary: This is just a starting point for brainstorming, I know my ideas are not perfect but I think they're a step in the right direction. Try to come up with some creative modifications or other ideas. Remember the two goals:
1: Fans should ideally cheer for a win for each and every individual game.
2: Team that had a poor season should, in general, be helped with better draft picks.

Fans should not cheer for a win if they think it's in the team's interest to lose.
Blashill is a shitty coach. The more losses, the more likely he's fired.
Lottery or no lottery, why should I cheer for that chump?
Fans should do whatever the f*** they want.

 

[Uberdachen]

It's adorable that missing the playoffs is still so new to Red Wings fans.

Anyways, my suggestions:
A) For every goal your team scores, Little Caesars replaces an existing ingredient with a real one.
B) Every game your non-playoff-bound team wins removes a law. Maybe some obscure blue law goes first, then maybe you're allowed to have horses in restaurants again, now you can go through a drive-thru without being in a vehicle, eventually if your team gets on a roll you can **** a man's face off just because you didn't like the way he shaved.
C) As long as your team is in the lead, drinks are half price. If that's not your bag for some ridiculous reason, then fine, nickel off expired baby food.
D) Every win after whatever cutoff gets your team a Pooch Point. Pooch Points can be redeemed after the regular season ends: 5 Pooch Points lets you award a 2-minute penalty to any team during the playoffs. 10 Pooch Points allows you to drop a random team 5 spots in the draft. 15 Pooch Points allows you to swap two other teams' draft picks. 20 Pooch Points allows you to relocate a team. Pooch Points may not be valid in some states. Consult a physician immediately if Pooch Points are ingested. Pooch Point cash value is 1/100th of a Schrute Buck.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Really the only way to do away with cheering for losses and tanking in general is to have the draft position start by first to miss the playoffs and move down from there. Of course this brings a bunch of obvious issues such as a bottom of the league teams being bottom of the league for longer. But there will never be a game in the NHL that doesn't matter at that point unless you already clinched a playoff spot super early, which you would still want to fight for better position.

 

[oXo Cube]

Tanking is a net positive for the league from a fan retention perspective. If you were a Coyotes fan, why the flying f*** would you pay any attention to the NHL product after October if not for the draft?

Lottery should be scrapped completely.

 

[Flowah]

It's not a step in the right direction. It's actually a step in the wrong direction. Your idea does nothing to provide any advantage for bad teams which you yourself stated was a goal. In fact it's a worse modification of an existing idea in which after you're eliminated from the playoff race every win counts towards the lottery. At least that gets bad teams into the mix faster. Your idea starts every team off at the same marker which means the good teams are going to get more wins, surprise surprise, and get better lottery odds. Your possible modification idea does nothing to alleviate that either.

You're going to have to come to terms with the fact that you have two irreconcilable goals here. You cannot have some mechanism for providing an advantage to bad teams and have those teams want to win every game. That simply doesn't make sense. You can only determine how much each goal is worth to you and balance it accordingly. But make no mistake, they are on opposite sides of the argument and you're just picking where on the scale you want to put things.

Also, as an aside, there are numerous problems with the "points after elimination" suggestion as well. First, the standings are way too close, especially with loser points. Look at how many god awful teams hadn't been eliminated until there were like... 10-11 games to go. That's ludicrous. Plus, it in no way deincentivizes tanking. If anything, it encourages more extreme tanking. Tank super hard to get knocked out faster. No waiting until 20-30 games in to see whether you have a chance or not of making the playoffs. No, you tank right away to make sure you get eliminated faster.

The lottery is the best way, imo, to balance these two goals. Personally I think it's unnecessary. I say give the worst team the 1st pick. Tanking is its own punishment. Who comes to a game to watch a tank? You're sacrificing your fanbase and revenue, potentially long term, on the off chance that you get a generational talent that can turn your team into a contender. Edmonton got how many and still sucked? You might see teams purposefully tanking if a McDavid comes along, but that's a big risk still. More than 1 team can play that game and there's no guarantee you finish at the bottom. Then what? You made your team garbage for a few years for nothing. GMs definitely consider that. That's why openly tanking isn't much of a thing.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I was rooting for our team to lose a few years back when we were lottery teams. Its done with the intent to have long term winning. Sometimes you have to lose before things get better.

 

[TheOtherOne]

It's not a step in the right direction. It's actually a step in the wrong direction. Your idea does nothing to provide any advantage for bad teams which you yourself stated was a goal. In fact it's a worse modification of an existing idea in which after you're eliminated from the playoff race every win counts towards the lottery. At least that gets bad teams into the mix faster. Your idea starts every team off at the same marker which means the good teams are going to get more wins, surprise surprise, and get better lottery odds. Your possible modification idea does nothing to alleviate that either.

You're going to have to come to terms with the fact that you have two irreconcilable goals here. You cannot have some mechanism for providing an advantage to bad teams and have those teams want to win every game. That simply doesn't make sense. You can only determine how much each goal is worth to you and balance it accordingly. But make no mistake, they are on opposite sides of the argument and you're just picking where on the scale you want to put things.

Also, as an aside, there are numerous problems with the "points after elimination" suggestion as well. First, the standings are way too close, especially with loser points. Look at how many god awful teams hadn't been eliminated until there were like... 10-11 games to go. That's ludicrous. Plus, it in no way deincentivizes tanking. If anything, it encourages more extreme tanking. Tank super hard to get knocked out faster. No waiting until 20-30 games in to see whether you have a chance or not of making the playoffs. No, you tank right away to make sure you get eliminated faster.

The lottery is the best way, imo, to balance these two goals. Personally I think it's unnecessary. I say give the worst team the 1st pick. Tanking is its own punishment. Who comes to a game to watch a tank? You're sacrificing your fanbase and revenue, potentially long term, on the off chance that you get a generational talent that can turn your team into a contender. Edmonton got how many and still sucked? You might see teams purposefully tanking if a McDavid comes along, but that's a big risk still. More than 1 team can play that game and there's no guarantee you finish at the bottom. Then what? You made your team garbage for a few years for nothing. GMs definitely consider that. That's why openly tanking isn't much of a thing.

I feel like you're missing a crucial aspect of my idea.

- wins after the deadline can ONLY move you up or down 1 spot maximum (or alternatively, 2)

This means after 3/4 of a season, the team with the worst record will draft 1st or 2nd, guaranteed.
The team with the 2nd worst record will draft 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, guaranteed. If they got enough lottery wins after the 61st game, they might jump to 1st. If they didn't, they might drop to 3rd. That's it.
The team with the 3rd worst record will draft 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, guaranteed. If they got enough lottery wins after the 61st game, they might jump to 2nd. If they didn't, they might drop to 4th. That's it.

If you still feel the same way, that's fine. But please consider that bad teams absolutely are getting good draft picks under my proposed system.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Players are going to try to win regardless of the situation, so as a fan you have to live with that. They don't care about some unknown 18 year old, who may never be a teammate of theirs, and/or may try to take their job. They're either trying to stay in the league, playing hard for the guy next to them that they've been through the ups and downs with, or playing for a contract, etc.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Players are going to try to win regardless of the situation, so as a fan you have to live with that. They don't care about some unknown 18 year old, who may never be a teammate of theirs, and/or may try to take their job. They're either trying to stay in the league, playing hard for the guy next to them that they've been through the ups and downs with, or playing for a contract, etc.

Agree I dont think "tanking" happens as much as people think. Usually teams who are in these positions have lots of turnover the next year anyways. Guys who are not clear cut roster players will have to bust their ass to stay. That and these guys are professionals, they want to win. Many have never accepted losing on any level.

 

[Flowah]

If you still feel the same way, that's fine. But please consider that bad teams absolutely are getting good draft picks under my proposed system.

That's still not that different. Teams still want to tank tank tank for at least the first half of the season, maybe even the first 60 games.

 

[MMC]

The only thing that would make me root for the Ducks to lose would be if the other team winning prevented the Kings or Predators from making the playoffs.

 

[raymond23]

We root for a loss because, in the end, its a net positive for the organization. It's not like we're rooting for the organization to crumble.

Glendening and Helm leading us to a late season victory is a bad outcome for the organization. It's really, really hard to get excited about that.

I don't think you can get too caught up in trying to fix these tank issues because there is no fix. You will just keep creating problems you're not happy with. The simpler the better.

If you want to celebrate a meaningless victory, all the power to you. That doesn't mean we all have to fall under the same category that conveniently fits your wants.

 

[SladeWilson23]

I wish there was an incentive for fans of spoiling teams to actually cheer for their teams to win. Having ALL teams in February and March going all out to win games is what's best for the league. If teams want to tank in October through January, then so be it. However, in February and March every team should be going all in to win games.

 

[GOilers88]

Fans that cheer for their team to lose aren't fans at all. I don't give a hoot about draft lotteries and placement. If you actively cheer for your team to lose in any capacity you're a f***in goof.

 

[Tak7]

Fans that cheer for their team to lose aren't fans at all. I don't give a hoot about draft lotteries and placement. If you actively cheer for your team to lose in any capacity you're a ****in goof.

Utterly ridiculous.

People cheering for a loss, and therefore a better draft pick / young star / building a team the right way / turning into a contender are goofs!?

Relax. Some fans are capable of putting long term success at the forefront of their mentality, rather than a meaningless win in March against a non-playoff team.

It's nuts that people still don't embrace tanking, when you see how many organizations have done it, successfully, and have either built winners or are in the process of turning into contenders.

 

[NeelyWasAWarrior]

Well today I learned that local team journalists are supposed to be impartial. I guess it only makes sense that fans cheer when their team loses.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Turn the draft ranking around for the teams that miss the playoffs. 1st team outside the playoff gets the best chance at the #1 pick in the draft. Last team in the league gets the 15th or whatever the last pick is before the playoff teams.

 

[Kyndig]

6 of the last 9 cups have gone to teams that are now in the lottery. If Pittsburgh blows a tire at the end of the season it might be 8 of the last 9 cups. How is this not broken?

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

Base the draft order on the number of years the team has not made the playoffs

 

[GOilers88]

Utterly ridiculous.

People cheering for a loss, and therefore a better draft pick / young star / building a team the right way / turning into a contender are goofs!?

Relax. Some fans are capable of putting long term success at the forefront of their mentality, rather than a meaningless win in March against a non-playoff team.

It's nuts that people still don't embrace tanking, when you see how many organizations have done it, successfully, and have either built winners or are in the process of turning into contenders.

Cheering for your team to put the worst product on the ice that they can so they can consistently lose makes you a goof, yes.

I've cheered for the Oilers through a decade of the worst hockey imagineable and never once have I thought to myself, "god I hope we lose all year".

If you think the only way a team can be successful is by drafting in the top 3 you're so sorely mistaken. So in short, yes, cheering for your team to intentionally bomb makes you a shit fan.

 

[Tak7]

Cheering for your team to put the worst product on the ice that they can so they can consistently lose makes you a goof, yes.

I've cheered for the Oilers through a decade of the worst hockey imagineable and never once have I thought to myself, "god I hope we lose all year".

If you think the only way a team can be successful is by drafting in the top 3 you're so sorely mistaken. So in short, yes, cheering for your team to intentionally bomb makes you a **** fan.

Some fans realize you can't win in this league without high elite talent. The most efficient and consistent way of getting high elite talent in this league, is through the draft. Not through trades or free agency.

Tanking doesn't guarantee you success.

Not getting high picks does guarantee you'll struggle to get elite talent on your roster - Detriot and NY Rangers come to mind.

Using the Oilers as an example of why rebuilding doesn't work, is note a fair example - Edmonton have been so sensationally bad at building anything, that they are the extreme exception to the norm.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

I think some people want to look beyond game #75 in a non playoff losing season inside of what's looking like a few losing non playoff seasons.
If losing that one game is the difference in gaining the talent that you need to have a chance to become a contender in the future, I don't think people need to be vilified for not enjoying winning that game.

 

[snag]

Some fans realize you can't win in this league without high elite talent. The most efficient and consistent way of getting high elite talent in this league, is through the draft. Not through trades or free agency.

Tanking doesn't guarantee you success.

Not getting high picks does guarantee you'll struggle to get elite talent on your roster - Detriot and NY Rangers come to mind.

Using the Oilers as an example of why rebuilding doesn't work, is note a fair example - Edmonton have been so sensationally bad at building anything, that they are the extreme exception to the norm.

You're right.....the draft alone can't build a winner. Geography and marital fidelity goes a long way to attracting free agents and keeping players