WC: I'm speechless... USA to the Relegation Round

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jekoh

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Jun 8, 2004
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Yet they won by default. With all the factors being in Canada's favor, it didn't make sense for otehr countries to even bid.

The process to bid, therefore, is irrelevant to your argument.
It's not irrelevant at all: absent a Canadian bid, the championship would have been held elsewhere.

The original point, though, was that the IIHF will hold the WCh in NA as often as possible, surely if Canada did not even have to bid, that only further makes the point.
 

Coach Travis

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I'm not too shocked. North American's don't take this tournament as seriously as Europeans. It's become a charity case, "If you wanna be on the Olympic team, you gotta do you volunteer hours at the World Championships... unless you're really good then you'll make it anyway!"
 

Dfire

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Oct 17, 2008
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I'm not too shocked. North American's don't take this tournament as seriously as Europeans. It's become a charity case, "If you wanna be on the Olympic team, you gotta do you volunteer hours at the World Championships... unless you're really good then you'll make it anyway!"

Thanks! Now I get it: The players just wanted to make it to the Olympics. And losing to Germany, Denmark and Finland gets you closer to the Olympic team.
 

RedWingsNow*

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I heard on a canadian radio sport show today that more american kids are registering for hockey every year now than canadian kids. has anyone heard anything familiar. it shocked me.

I am a Canadian living in the US. In certain circles, hockey is HUGE. I see six and seven year old kids who do amazing things on their skates. It's gonna be hard for Canada to hold off this beast.
 

Mr Epee

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May 12, 2010
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So which teams exactly are the "elite squads" and the "lower-tiers"? If your taking the Worlds out of the equasion there's not much basis for a comparison like that.
Current articles on the IIHF website refer to the USA, Canada, Finland, Sweden, Russia, Czech Republic, and Slovakia as the "Big-7." Why? Because those seven countries have accounted for every single medal in Olympic and World Championship play FOR THE PAST FIFTY PLUS YEARS!

That line is pretty clearly drawn. Not sure what you want.

I find it weird to dispute the fact that talent-proportions are able to shift
It very much means what you define as 'talent.' And regardless of one's definition of talent, success in a highly technical and equipment intensive sport like hockey requires a significant and well-established level of capital and cultural infrastructure that is simply not available in countries outside the Big-7. Also, with the well-known talent drain of players to elite commercial leagues (specifically the NHL, but also increasingly the KHL) it is harder and harder for countries, even within the Big-7, to maintain an internationally competitive level of hockey within domestic markets. Even perennial powerhouse like Finland has good cause to be concerned about a lack of young stars capable of replacing their much decorated but retiring warhorses.

I'm kinda sick of people belittleling this tournament because the results don't fit in their NHL-defined view of the hockey world.
Maybe it's just an American thing, but generally one expects an event called "World Championships" to be a contest between the best in the world. I have tapes of the Olympics stored on my computer. The events are not comparable in terms of intensity or level of play. You know this. I know this. The IIHF knows this. No one in their right mind would argue that this is a best-on-best tournament. A spade is a spade. That said, good luck to Germany. It's good to see you qualify to next year's 'championships'; legitimately this time. :naughty:


Keep in mind that the "lower-tiers" are missing players too.
Excuse me while I try to keep a straight face. *giggle*

Oops. Not possible.

Be serious.
 

Ilyeu

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Jan 10, 2010
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I am a Canadian living in the US. In certain circles, hockey is HUGE. I see six and seven year old kids who do amazing things on their skates. It's gonna be hard for Canada to hold off this beast.
All I hear it's going to be hard for Canada to hold off this beast, watch out Canada, here we come Canada, they're getting better, be careful Canada :blah::blah::blah::blah:

No one talks about how Canada has improved, no one talks about we better watch for Canada since the program of excellence.

Well guess what world watch out again, another Canadian hockey summit is taking place in August.

The fact and reality is that Canada's love and passion for this game makes us good, so this beast that is Canada is going to be hard to hold on to in the future and beyond.
 

InglewoodJack

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Jun 10, 2009
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Thanks! Now I get it: The players just wanted to make it to the Olympics. And losing to Germany, Denmark and Finland gets you closer to the Olympic team.

That's not the point. North American hockey (NHL) has a longer season. Players are tired. Most of the best players are on top teams, right? So Top teams either make the playoffs, thus making them ineligible to play. The other good players are either tired from the long season, or two sad that they didn't make the playoffs to play in a tournament. This means that Canada/US will be sending their B team of good players and youngsters who have something to prove. Sure you end up with an interesting mix of players, but casual fans don't care about a B-team. Does this make the WC a lesser tourney? No. It just means that because of this, and because NA hockey fans are too busy watching the playoffs, over here, we don't really care much about the WC.
 

JVR21

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Jan 27, 2010
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FYI- nobody in America really cares at all. I'm not sure who is on the team or who is coaching, but I'm guessing you can just compare this roster to the Olympic roster and see a massive difference.
 

Ilyeu

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Jan 10, 2010
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FYI- nobody in America really cares at all. I'm not sure who is on the team or who is coaching, but I'm guessing you can just compare this roster to the Olympic roster and see a massive difference.
FYI- This is excuse is used all the time.
I'm pretty sure you know who is on the team if you see the roster. Americans on this board seem to be pretty angry about this performance.
 

Kenadyan

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Jul 23, 2003
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I am a Canadian living in the US. In certain circles, hockey is HUGE. I see six and seven year old kids who do amazing things on their skates. It's gonna be hard for Canada to hold off this beast.

Me, too (in fact, I used to live in Michigan). However, I don't buy it. The comment that you make "In certain circles" proves my point.

Hockey is still too regional in the U.S. There have always been large youth programs in states like Minnesota, Michigan, and the New England states. More lately there have been more youth programs popping up in places like Phoenix and California.

However, in states like Florida, Ohio, and Nebraska football is king and I don't see hockey making inroads into those areas of the country any time soon on a grand scale. Also in the southern U.S., there aren't enough programs for hockey to build on.

I also think that %-wise compared to population, Canada has a greater percentage of kids signing up to play hockey.
 

Mr Epee

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May 12, 2010
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Me, too (in fact, I used to live in Michigan). However, I don't buy it. The comment that you make "In certain circles" proves my point.

Hockey is still too regional in the U.S. There have always been large youth programs in states like Minnesota, Michigan, and the New England states. More lately there have been more youth programs popping up in places like Phoenix and California.

However, in states like Florida, Ohio, and Nebraska football is king and I don't see hockey making inroads into those areas of the country any time soon on a grand scale. Also in the southern U.S., there aren't enough programs for hockey to build on.

I also think that %-wise compared to population, Canada has a greater percentage of kids signing up to play hockey.

Right on. Right on.

Oddly enough, keep an eye on Texas, though. Given the nature of hockey and the funding structure in place for sports in the United States (meaning Mommy's pocketbook), I've heard tell that there's some hockey groundswell in the Lone Star state. Hockey has a certain cache of toughness and general inaccessibility that easily lends itself to being an awesome tool for affluent white folks attempting to distinguish themselves and their kids from stuff.

Also, don't forget that athletic kids across the US basically cherry-pick themselves into the other more culturally dominant and accessible major sports (Football, Basketball, and Baseball). I don't know, but I get the impression that Canada's athletic talent is directed pretty quickly to hockey; except, of course, for Steve Nash. For that we thank you. ;-)
 

Mr Epee

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May 12, 2010
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Jyväskylä, Finland
FYI- [The America doesn't care about this tournament] excuse is used all the time..
Because it's true... and it's easily confirmed.

While happenings at the IIHF World Championships constitute front page news in Finland, they don't even make headlines of dedicated sports media outlets in the United States. I sincerely encourage you to search for information on this tournament on either of the three most prominent American sports media outlets (ESPN, Sports Illustrated and Fox Sports). Report back with your findings. I assure you that the pickings will be slim.

Still not convinced? Check out the American TV broadcasting rights for the tournament.

The event isn't popular.
 

BigT2002

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Dec 6, 2006
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FYI- This is excuse is used all the time.
I'm pretty sure you know who is on the team if you see the roster. Americans on this board seem to be pretty angry about this performance.

Actually, unless someone was to actually look at the roster for the US team, I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't know who is actually playing. Let me break it down as best I can for those who have questions regarding the US in these tourney's. Outside of those who actually follow USA Hockey, no one cares about the U-18, U-20 type placements, and outside of the Olympics....you won't see people really care either :shrug: the reason the Olympics are so much more popular for the United States is because it hits any countries inferiority complex of wanting to claim they are the best. It is why Canada had their Gold medal incentive for their athletes, and why there is such a huge emphasis on it within most countries. Why else would Russia fire their Olympic President (or whatever his title was) after their poor performance? Its not about sportsmanship, its about bragging rights.

Where are the bragging rights with winning this tourney? Moving up a few spots in an international ranking system that already is flawed at how it rates specific countries. Unless there is strong emphasis made that not placing in these type of tournaments means you don't go to the Olympics, most major countries are not going to see it as a "hey we need to send the best of the best" instead "we would like it if they played, but who cares if they don't..."
 

Ilyeu

Registered User
Jan 10, 2010
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I really don't believe it. I haven't watched much nhl this year and I definitely don't watch my team play every week. I know who most of these American players are, and I'm Canadian.
I sincerely encourage you to search for information on this tournament on either of the three most prominent American sports media outlets (ESPN, Sports Illustrated and Fox Sports). Report back with your findings. I assure you that the pickings will be slim.
I have seen this tournament covered in articles on ESPN and NHL. If you do a google search it shows up in American papers.

Right on. Right on.

Oddly enough, keep an eye on Texas, though. Given the nature of hockey and the funding structure in place for sports in the United States (meaning Mommy's pocketbook), I've heard tell that there's some hockey groundswell in the Lone Star state.
I keep hearing this too, watch out for Texas. No I won't watch out for Texas, even with their enormous population. Comparing winter climates to scorching climates is like comparing apples to oranges. Texas won't become a hockey factory. California has had 50 or 60 years to prove me wrong. If it's not happening in SoCal, it's not happening in Texas.

Where are the bragging rights with winning this tourney? Moving up a few spots in an international ranking system that already is flawed at how it rates specific countries.
Decades of glory and Soviet, Canadian championships signify that this tournament means something. Just because "America" isn't interested in this tournament, doesn't mean hockey revolves around them.

Americans like the World Cup of Hockey, why? Because of that series you won in `96. I wonder if Americans even care about the prestige that happened before that was called the Canada Cup. No it wouldn't matter because it's called "Canada", so not as important.

The IIHF tournament is a better and more prestigious tournament than the World Cup, and it's always been that way. Canada cares.
 
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Drij

Registered User
Mar 5, 2007
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All I hear it's going to be hard for Canada to hold off this beast, watch out Canada, here we come Canada, they're getting better, be careful Canada :blah::blah::blah::blah:

No one talks about how Canada has improved, no one talks about we better watch for Canada since the program of excellence.

Well guess what world watch out again, another Canadian hockey summit is taking place in August.

The fact and reality is that Canada's love and passion for this game makes us good, so this beast that is Canada is going to be hard to hold on to in the future and beyond.

What?
 

Ilyeu

Registered User
Jan 10, 2010
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I'm being serious. :) Google it, or check Hockey Canada, too busy now, to help watching Rus-Ger. It's actually or maybe unofficially considered a hockey summit, because all the huge hockey organizations will be attending.
 

Drij

Registered User
Mar 5, 2007
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Canadian hockey summit as in the discussion on how to improve the game development? I don't get your point why that's a big deal, they had one last year.
 

Ilyeu

Registered User
Jan 10, 2010
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Canadian hockey summit as in the discussion on how to improve the game development? I don't get your point why that's a big deal, they had one last year.
They're putting more emphasis on this one. The first one (1999) led to the program of excellence with outlining ideas that were templates over a year in opinions and suggestions. The one coming up hopes to get a lot out of it.
 

jcbio11

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Aug 17, 2008
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That's not the point. North American hockey (NHL) has a longer season. Players are tired. Most of the best players are on top teams, right? So Top teams either make the playoffs, thus making them ineligible to play. The other good players are either tired from the long season, or two sad that they didn't make the playoffs to play in a tournament. This means that Canada/US will be sending their B team of good players and youngsters who have something to prove. Sure you end up with an interesting mix of players, but casual fans don't care about a B-team. Does this make the WC a lesser tourney? No. It just means that because of this, and because NA hockey fans are too busy watching the playoffs, over here, we don't really care much about the WC.

Well by now, only 4 teams are in the playoffs. So most of the best players are available now.
 

New User Name

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Jan 2, 2008
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Why would any American be pissed off at this tournament?

The best on best (Olympics) (under 18) (world juniors) prove that the US is as good as Canada when it counts.

Imagine the future when Americans take hockey serious.

Soon, more American kids will be playing hockey than Canadian kids and one day, Americans will take over number 1 spot in the NHL.
 

William H Bonney

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Feb 27, 2002
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Why would any American be pissed off at this tournament?

The best on best (Olympics) (under 18) (world juniors) prove that the US is as good as Canada when it counts.

Imagine the future when Americans take hockey serious.

Soon, more American kids will be playing hockey than Canadian kids and one day, Americans will take over number 1 spot in the NHL.

It will take more than just increased participation numbers for the USA to match or overtake Canada when looking at the overall picture. Granted, numbers is a part of it but until more areas of the country develop a Canada-esque hockey culture, it will always be an upward struggle to get more kids and better athletes taking hockey seriously.
 

JVR21

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Jan 27, 2010
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FYI- This is excuse is used all the time.
I'm pretty sure you know who is on the team if you see the roster. Americans on this board seem to be pretty angry about this performance.
I have no idea who is on the roster. I have no idea who the coach is. I have no idea who the Gm is, if there is one at all. I, and I'm sure 99% of american hockey fans, don't care about this tournament. I only say this because people from other countries seem to think it is some sort of upset or that american hockey is suffering. We got gold in the WJC and silver in the Olympics. We are doing just fine.

Edit:
I just looked up the roster. Our starting goalie is Scott Clemmensen and our second best defenseman is Andy Greene. Most of the guys aren't even among the best on their NHL team. All I'm saying is this tournament is during the Stanley Cup Playoffs, and americans truly aren't interested.
 

BillyShoe1721

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Mar 29, 2007
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Am I annoyed? Yeah, but I don't really care. I could have told you this roster would struggle mightily. Did I expect them to implode like this? No, but I wasn't expecting anything near the medal round.
 

sjmay*

Guest
California has had 50 or 60 years to prove me wrong. If it's not happening in SoCal, it's not happening in Texas.

Please tell me why you think it's not happening in Southern California?

Have you seen their elite teams?
 

Dread Clawz

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Nov 25, 2006
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Me, too (in fact, I used to live in Michigan). However, I don't buy it. The comment that you make "In certain circles" proves my point.

Hockey is still too regional in the U.S. There have always been large youth programs in states like Minnesota, Michigan, and the New England states. More lately there have been more youth programs popping up in places like Phoenix and California.

However, in states like Florida, Ohio, and Nebraska football is king and I don't see hockey making inroads into those areas of the country any time soon on a grand scale. Also in the southern U.S., there aren't enough programs for hockey to build on.

I also think that %-wise compared to population, Canada has a greater percentage of kids signing up to play hockey.

Uh, not true. The youth teams in South Florida have done very well in recent years when they travel up north. I don't know how you say youth hockey in Phoenix is doing well but not in Florida. Same thing really.
 
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