How was Germany selected to play?

[Mountain Dude]

Did they have a qualifying tournament for the bottom feeding teams or something, or was it just world rankings at the time?

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[Moskau]

Don't underestimate Germany.

 

[Mountain Dude]

Don't underestimate Germany.

Oh I'm not questioning them or anything like that, I just want to know how the other two teams were selected after the big 6.

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

No qualifying tournament. They arbitrarily chose Germany and luckily as of right now i would say we have the top eight teams. I will not go into my quarterly World Cup rant.

 

[Jazz]

No qualifying tournament. They arbitrarily chose Germany....

Sorry...misinformed here...

The 8 teams chosen for this World Cup were determined by the Top 8 finishers in the 2002 World Championships....

They have always used the World Championships to determine the teams for the Canada Cup as well - eg in 1984, the Finns failed to qualify because they finished lower than W. Germany in a particular qualifying year - and W. Germany was in the 1984 tournament, not Finland.

 

[Pepper]

World Cup is invitation-only tournament, officially World Championship results have nothing to do with it but unofficially the last team is chosen based on World Championships results (big 7 get invited automatically).

 

[broman]

One word: money. We're talking a market of 90 million people.

 

[Paxon]

One word: money. We're talking a market of 90 million people.

Who are how big of hockey fans?

 

[psycho_dad*]

Oh I'm not questioning them or anything like that, I just want to know how the other two teams were selected after the big 6.

It's big 7 these days, since Slovakia joined the bunch.

And Germany would be the natural choise for 8th, they are the 8th best at the moment and have been for ages.

 

[broman]

Who are how big of hockey fans?

They are, actually. German league packs big crowds and the atmosphere can be very special. It's just the players who are not quite there just yet.......

But yes, I guess they could be regarded a legitimate #8, I will give them that. Not that NHL and IIHF mind the bit about 90 million either.

 

[Paxon]

They are, actually. German league packs big crowds and the atmosphere can be very special. It's just the players who are not quite there just yet.......

But yes, I guess they could be regarded a legitimate #8, I will give them that. Not that NHL and IIHF mind the bit about 90 million either.

I didn't mean to insinuate they weren't, I was genuinely asking. I suppose it is a tad of a surprise to me, but not a huge one.

 

[Ola]

Germany could be one of the best sport markets in the World after USA. The premiership in England generates allot of money. But NHL has a unique chance to get into the German market where hockey is a popular sport, although without the tradition it has in the "top 7" countrys...

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

Sorry...misinformed here...

The 8 teams chosen for this World Cup were determined by the Top 8 finishers in the 2002 World Championships....

They have always used the World Championships to determine the teams for the Canada Cup as well - eg in 1984, the Finns failed to qualify because they finished lower than W. Germany in a particular qualifying year - and W. Germany was in the 1984 tournament, not Finland.

Show me where this is written please before you call me misinformed. I am not bashing the choice of the Germans at all, they are the 8th best team and as someone said have been for a long time. The line is going to get blurry and what then? And to this character calling me misinformed do you really think for a second the NHL would hold something this high profile and rely on the World Championship results. THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!! That is a formula that the IIHF would use for Olympic qualification but not for promotion of the game via an invitational World Cup.. Until the NHL decides to have a real World Cup it will be by invitation only. There may be a day when another country has a beef to be included- what then?

 

[GKJ]

There may be a day when another country has a beef to be included- what then?

They expand. I would have like to seen Switzerland in this tourney along with either Belarus or Latvia

 

[Frozen]

There is also the World Ranking on the IIHF site.

They rank the teams with points they have gotten from achievements from the last four years.

Example: Value of the gold medal
Year 1: 100% value -- 1200 points
Year 2: 75% value -- 900 points
Year 3: 50% value -- 600 points
Year 4: 25% value -- 300 points
Year 5: 0% value -- 0 points

Here is the World Ranking. Germany is the eigth there. You need Adobe Reader to view the rankings.

 

[Jazz]

Show me where this is written please before you call me misinformed. I am not bashing the choice of the Germans at all, they are the 8th best team and as someone said have been for a long time. The line is going to get blurry and what then? And to this character calling me misinformed do you really think for a second the NHL would hold something this high profile and rely on the World Championship results. THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!! That is a formula that the IIHF would use for Olympic qualification but not for promotion of the game via an invitational World Cup.. Until the NHL decides to have a real World Cup it will be by invitation only. There may be a day when another country has a beef to be included- what then?

I did not mean to make a disparaging comment towards you...

I mearly stated (and this was after you said that this is a common rant on your part) that you did not have the right facts.. (you can see in all my other posts I don't insult anyone...)

As for my souce, about them using the Worlds Championships to determine the World (and Canada) Cup teams, it was on the official press release when the tournament was announced about 2 years ago (on faceoff.com - which is now canada.com). Also at the same time when this World Cup was announced, Bill Daly, the NHL's Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer was on a radio-call in show, and I called in with 2 questions: (1) why was Switzerland not in? - he responded by stating that the 2002 World Championship's top-8 was used as the criteria for selecting the teams - and (2) why has the tournament not increased from 8 teams to 10-12 teams - he responded that he didn't think there was enough depth to warrant that increase YET (I disagreed with this) but he did say that this was on the agenda for the next World Cup (2008?)

So in conclusion, anyone who calls the World Cup ( and the Canada Cup before that ) invitational is misinformed.

The example I gave about the 1984 Canada Cup when the Finns did not qualify is proof of that...

As for more countries being involved - never did I say that I agree only 8 teams being involved (see my question to Bill Daly above). I think that for the promotion of the game, Switzerland, Belarus and Latvia should be involved, plus they should have given away the TV rights in those non-participating countries so this event's exposure in increased elsewhere (I said this in another post as well.)

 

[jekoh]

Also at the same time when this World Cup was announced, Bill Daly, the NHL's Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer was on a radio-call in show, and I called in with 2 questions: (1) why was Switzerland not in? - he responded by stating that the 2002 World Championship's top-8 was used as the criteria for selecting the teams

Can you name a single non-invitationnal tournament when the "criteria" are used in restrospect ?

They could have chosen the 2002 Olympics instead, but Slovakia finished 13th.

They could have waited for the next WCh, and I guess they're glad they didn't as the USA also finished 13th.

Sounds like they chose their 8 teams beforehand and then used the WCh in which Germany conveniently finished 8th.

 

[Jazz]

..Sounds like they chose their 8 teams beforehand and then used the WCh in which Germany conveniently finished 8th.

How does one respond to this type of cynicism?

Please read again and pay special attention to the blue.

As for my souce, about them using the Worlds Championships to determine the World (and Canada) Cup teams, it was on the official press release when the tournament was announced about 2 years ago (on faceoff.com - which is now canada.com). Also at the same time when this World Cup was announced, Bill Daly, the NHL's Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer was on a radio-call in show, and I called in with 2 questions: (1) why was Switzerland not in? - he responded by stating that the 2002 World Championship's top-8 was used as the criteria for selecting the teams - and (2).....

2 years ago = 2002 (when the tournament was announced - and it was announced before the start of traning camps, so in Sept) - makes sense to use the results from that year...doesn't it?

.

 

[e-e]

Oh I'm not questioning them or anything like that, I just want to know how the other two teams were selected after the big 6.

the "big 6" is past....and as you can see below slovakia isn't even 7th
here's a 2004 IIHF world ranking
1 CAN
2 SWE
3 SVK
4 CZE
5 FIN
6 USA
7 RUS
8 GER

go slovakia go!!!

 

[jekoh]

2 years ago = 2002 (when the tournament was announced - and it was announced before the start of traning camps, so in Sept) - makes sense to use the results from that year...doesn't it?

No, it doesn't, as nobody knew the results from that year would be used for the World Cup.

Also, as I said, there were actually two results from that year (WCh and Olympics), and it would have made more sense to go with the ones from the Olympics, since the WC and the Olympics are regarded as being the same level. Why they decided to use the WCh is anybody's guess.

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

How does one respond to this type of cynicism?

Please read again and pay special attention to the blue.



2 years ago = 2002 (when the tournament was announced - and it was announced before the start of traning camps, so in Sept) - makes sense to use the results from that year...doesn't it?

.

They can use whatever spin they want but i can 100% guarantee that this tourney would not have been using the 2002 WC results if the USA was 9th. They would be in this tourney even if they were relegated in 2002. Bill daly blows smoke on a daily basis and that is more of it. No way this tourney goes without the big 7. Germany is the deserving 8th right now. Let me see Bill daly say tomorrow we will be using the 2006 WC's as the basis for the next World Cup. Will he not sweat if Russia bomb to 11th or the US go 13th again. They would probably spin it some other way.

 

[Jazz]

They can use whatever spin they want but i can 100% guarantee that this tourney would not have been using the 2002 WC results if the USA was 9th. They would be in this tourney even if they were relegated in 2002. Bill daly blows smoke on a daily basis and that is more of it. No way this tourney goes without the big 7. Germany is the deserving 8th right now. Let me see Bill daly say tomorrow we will be using the 2006 WC's as the basis for the next World Cup. Will he not sweat if Russia bomb to 11th or the US go 13th again. They would probably spin it some other way.

Ok...that's fine, you are not open to any other thoughts even though the fact of Finland not qualifying for the 1984 Canada Cup and is right in front of you ... (and Finland had many more NHLers then than W. Germany - who I think at the time only had Uwe Krupp)

Remember, my question to Daly was with respect to Germany's inclusion and not Switzerland's...nothing to do with USA or any other country finishing out of the top 8...

As for any future World Cup, I've heard Bob Nicholson say in a radio interview recently that he expects the organizers are are probably going to start using the newly developed IIHF World Rankings.
I'll repeat what I've said before, that I am hoping by then that they (the organizers) will open their eyes and expand the tournament to at least 10 countries, and possibly even 12.

 

[jekoh]

Ok...that's fine, you are not open to any other thoughts even though the fact of Finland not qualifying for the 1984 Canada Cup and is right in front of you ...

Tell me, where did the USA finish when Germany was ahead of Finland ? The only 2 times in those years when FR Germany was ahead of Finland were 1983 WCh and 1984 Olympics. On both occasions, the USA finished behind Finland. I assume they still took part in the Canada Cup.

(and Finland had many more NHLers then than W. Germany -

This was a different competition twenty years ago and again that benefited the biggest market (and it's not like Finland had an awful lot of NHLers either at the time). Add the fact that the USA still made it despite finishing behind the Finns in that "qualifier" and it hardly proves your point.

As for any future World Cup, I've heard Bob Nicholson say in a radio interview recently that he expects the organizers are probably going to start using the newly developed IIHF World Rankings.

That's a good thing, although some people regard these rankings as a way to prevent teams like the USA or Russia (teams that have bad years here and there but will still be Top8 over a few seasons) to be forced to a qualifying tournament for the Olympics -- or then the World Cup.

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

Ok...that's fine, you are not open to any other thoughts even though the fact of Finland not qualifying for the 1984 Canada Cup and is right in front of you ... (and Finland had many more NHLers then than W. Germany - who I think at the time only had Uwe Krupp)

Remember, my question to Daly was with respect to Germany's inclusion and not Switzerland's...nothing to do with USA or any other country finishing out of the top 8...

As for any future World Cup, I've heard Bob Nicholson say in a radio interview recently that he expects the organizers are are probably going to start using the newly developed IIHF World Rankings.
I'll repeat what I've said before, that I am hoping by then that they (the organizers) will open their eyes and expand the tournament to at least 10 countries, and possibly even 12.

Its not that i am not open to other thoughts but any way you slice it they wanted the Germans on board as well as the other seven. Here is hoping they expand the number of teams as well.

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

Tell me, where did the USA finish when Germany was ahead of Finland ? The only 2 times in those years when FR Germany was ahead of Finland were 1983 WCh and 1984 Olympics. On both occasions, the USA finished behind Finland. I assume they still took part in the Canada Cup.




This was a different competition twenty years ago and again that benefited the biggest market (and it's not like Finland had an awful lot of NHLers either at the time). Add the fact that the USA still made it despite finishing behind the Finns in that "qualifier" and it hardly proves your point.




That's a good thing, although some people regard these rankings as a way to prevent teams like the USA or Russia (teams that have bad years here and there but will still be Top8 over a few seasons) to be forced to a qualifying tournament for the Olympics -- or then the World Cup.

I need not be making this argument as you are doing a better job than i am. There is no concrete formula for the World Cup it is mostly invitational as you say.