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How much of the blame does Mike Liut get in your eyes for the 1981 Canada Cup?

How much of the blame does Mike Liut get in your eyes for the 1981 Canada Cup?

  • Liut is almost 100% to blame for that game

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Liut deserves more blame than anyone but there were other issues

    Votes: 3 20.0%

  • Liut deserves equal blame vs. the rest of the team

    Votes: 6 40.0%

  • The team in front of him is to blame more than Liut

    Votes: 4 26.7%

  • Liut was left hung out to dry in that game

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • Total voters
    15
Crosby2010

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
897
749
Just a simple question. We all know how things ended for Canada in the 1981 Canada Cup. That 8-1 thrashing at the hands of the Soviets at the Montreal Forum for the final winner take all championship game. Probably a little known fact, but the score was 0-0 at the end of the 1st. And then a manageable 3-1 at the end of the second period. In fact it was 1-1 still midway through the 2nd period. 5 goals were scored in the 3rd period against Liut. 3 goals were scored in the final 4 minutes of the game. I think the nail in the coffin was Krutov's short handed goal where Lafleur moved out of the way and just let him walk in (I assume not wanting to screen Liut). That made it 5-1. I think the entire team checked out after that and Liut was sort of left hanging. After that Larionov had a breakaway goal to make it 6-1. Shepelev had a natural hat trick in the game and to me that was the key to the entire game. It was 1-1 before he did this. The most important thing for me is to analyze those goals he scored because he broke the game open.

How much should Liut shoulder the blame for this game? He was 4-1-1 in the tournament. Canada beat the Soviets 7-3 at the end of the round robin with Don Edwards in net. Canada in general looked disheveled in this game defensively. The shots were 27-26 for Canada but I know that on the goals they just looked out of place. That power play goal Shepelev scored to make it 3-1 he is standing right in the slot and no one touches him. The goal to make it 4-1 the defense is all over the place.

I would say this, the early goals against Liut may have been stoppable but they were good goals. Liut was screened on some of them and there wasn't a weak goal they scored until perhaps the 5th goal. The 7th goal was just a weak backhander but the game is out of hand by then. Not sure if anything changes with Edwards in net as Liut was the Pearson winner that year. Or if Billy Smith had been healthy, maybe things change. But either way how much blame does he take? He was honestly never forgiven for that game I don't think.
 
Not a lot, the team scored 1 goal and largely rolled over and died in the third. Liut was far from great but it was a total team failure, mainly after the first. I guess you could argue that with another save the Canadian players would have pushed more in the third, but USSR was excellent and the goals were not going to come that game.

It's unfair to Liut, who was an excellent goaltender, that that game tarnishes his legacy while you get Fuhr letting in five a game and winning in 1987 for instance.
 
There were a lot of players who played poorly for Team Canada that night. Mike Liut was definitely one of them.

Canada's four best players in the game were all Islanders: Gillies, Trottier, Bossy and Potvin.
 
Crosby2010 said:
Just a simple question. We all know how things ended for Canada in the 1981 Canada Cup. That 8-1 thrashing at the hands of the Soviets at the Montreal Forum for the final winner take all championship game. Probably a little known fact, but the score was 0-0 at the end of the 1st. And then a manageable 3-1 at the end of the second period. In fact it was 1-1 still midway through the 2nd period. 5 goals were scored in the 3rd period against Liut. 3 goals were scored in the final 4 minutes of the game. I think the nail in the coffin was Krutov's short handed goal where Lafleur moved out of the way and just let him walk in (I assume not wanting to screen Liut). That made it 5-1. I think the entire team checked out after that and Liut was sort of left hanging. After that Larionov had a breakaway goal to make it 6-1. Shepelev had a natural hat trick in the game and to me that was the key to the entire game. It was 1-1 before he did this. The most important thing for me is to analyze those goals he scored because he broke the game open.

How much should Liut shoulder the blame for this game? He was 4-1-1 in the tournament. Canada beat the Soviets 7-3 at the end of the round robin with Don Edwards in net. Canada in general looked disheveled in this game defensively. The shots were 27-26 for Canada but I know that on the goals they just looked out of place. That power play goal Shepelev scored to make it 3-1 he is standing right in the slot and no one touches him. The goal to make it 4-1 the defense is all over the place.

I would say this, the early goals against Liut may have been stoppable but they were good goals. Liut was screened on some of them and there wasn't a weak goal they scored until perhaps the 5th goal. The 7th goal was just a weak backhander but the game is out of hand by then. Not sure if anything changes with Edwards in net as Liut was the Pearson winner that year. Or if Billy Smith had been healthy, maybe things change. But either way how much blame does he take? He was honestly never forgiven for that game I don't think.
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On the Krutov goal, Gretzky, Lafleur, and Potvin all looked bad. Gretzky, on the PP, passed it right to Krutov. Lafleur was completely tricked with the fake slapshot, and Potvin easily could've been it position to stop him.

Krutov was pretty new on the scene, they probably didn't yet realize how dangerous he was, for one thing.
 
I think, in general, Canadian hockey wasn't yet equipped to handle the Soviets when they were firing on all cylinders. The Soviets played a real team game, and Canada struggled to play like a team, and to play good defense.

Remember, this is the second final game in a row that a Scotty Bowman-coached team was completely walloped by the Soviets, following Game 3 of the '79 Challenge Cup.
 
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Staniowski said:
I think, in general, Canadian hockey wasn't yet equipped to handle the Soviets when they were firing on all cylinders. The Soviets played a real team game, and Canada struggled to play like a team, and to play good defense.

Remember, this is the second final game in a row that a Scotty Bowman-coached team was completely walloped by the Soviets, following Game 3 of the '79 Challenge Cup.
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Didn't Canada spank the Soviets, like, 7-3, a week prior to this game?
 
Bit of both.

No Team Canada calibre goalie should allow that many goals.

But it begs the question of what the team was doing.

Gretzky’s autobiography alludes to the tension in the dressing room between the Oilers personnel and the Islanders personnel.

Never really built a team.
 
NyQuil said:
Bit of both.

No Team Canada calibre goalie should allow that many goals.

But it begs the question of what the team was doing.

Gretzky’s autobiography alludes to the tension in the dressing room between the Oilers personnel and the Islanders personnel.

Never really built a team.
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The Oilers/Islanders thing would be 1984, when there were 8 Oilers and 4 Islanders.

Gretzky was the only Oiler in '81.
 
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Was Dryden to blame for the 79 Challenge Cup final massacre?

The Soviets were a well oiled juggernaut in that era, the strongest they’ve ever been. A group of all stars with no chemistry was always going to be in tough.
 
koyvoo said:
Cheevers*

My bad
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Yeah, you can put a large part of the blame on Cheevers. I still don’t know why he was part of that team. Resch was statistically the best Canadian goalie that season. At that point in their careers, Smith, Edwards, Palmateer and Esposito were all better than Cheevers as well.
 
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Liut was absolutely hung out to dry as Canada was completely destroyed by the USSR.

But blaming the goalie was an easier 'out' than admitting how far behind the Soviets we looked in that game.
 
Staniowski said:
On the Krutov goal, Gretzky, Lafleur, and Potvin all looked bad. Gretzky, on the PP, passed it right to Krutov. Lafleur was completely tricked with the fake slapshot, and Potvin easily could've been it position to stop him.

Krutov was pretty new on the scene, they probably didn't yet realize how dangerous he was, for one thing.
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I guess Potvin should have maybe been closer to Krutov, but for starters that wasn't his side and secondly I doubt he thought Lafleur would duck out of the way like that. That really put a laneway there for Krutov and Potvin didn't have time to catch up to him.

koyvoo said:
Was Dryden to blame for the 79 Challenge Cup final massacre?

The Soviets were a well oiled juggernaut in that era, the strongest they’ve ever been. A group of all stars with no chemistry was always going to be in tough.
Click to expand...

Yes and no he was to blame. He played the first two games. Did well in Game 1. NHL All-Stars won 4-2. Then Game 2 he's back in there, they had a 4-2 lead near the end of the 2nd period. But then two goals late in the 2nd, an early one in the 3rd and it was 5-4. Bowman must have been nervous or felt that if he put Dryden back in for Game 3 and they lost that it would be "his" goalie in Montreal that he was favouring. Either way, Cheevers had backstopped the last two Cup finalists, maybe I pick Esposito myself but Cheevers did do well against the Soviets before. You just can't predict a 6-0 thrashing.
 
It was really a 3-1 game that got out of hand in the third when one team folded. My memory is that Canada's defence just fell asleep, and in the third period the whole team just gave up.

I don't blame Mike Liut much at all, but I have to see it again...

(Watching goal highlights now...)

USSR 1st goal
-- Looks like Cdn. forwards are tired on the back-check, and one certain Grade-A shot for Krutov (wide open) is foiled as the puck bobbles, but then Krutov hits Larionov standing between the circles, dead-center (10-12 feet) in front of the net, Larionov fires a one-timer that beats Liut. There's no way you can blame the goalie for this.

(Clark Gillies then scores Canada's only goal on a very similar play with a pass from Bossy and a one-timer by Gillies. This one was actually more 'stoppable' than the Larionov goal.)

USSR 2nd goal
Front-of-goal broken play and loose puck. Somehow Shepelev finds it and beats Liut with a seemingly average-looking backhand (hard to see this clearly on the bad-quality TV feed). Liut could have stopped this, I guess, but in his defence I don't think he could see the stop coming. Some bad luck for Liut here.

USSR 3rd goal
Power-play goal by Shepelev, who is left completely wide-open, on his forehand, 10 feet in front of Liut, dead center. He even has time to pick his spot. Again, no way you can blame the goalie for this.

USSR 4th goal
Shepelev again, this time from about 20 feet out, dead center to the net. I guess Liut could have had this, but you wonder why Canada keeps giving world-class shooters unobstructed free shots from the slot. (Really bad attempt at defence by Guy Lafleur on this one. Guy skates past the puck carrier, lets him step into the slot, and then Lafleur somehow ends up in the corner while Shepelev is dead center and scoring.)

USSR 5th goal
Guy Lafleur brain-farts again, letting Krutov walk right past him and to the net for a shortie. Again, I guess Liut could have had it, but then again it's one of the best forwards in the world getting a free shot from the slot. (This is a recording...)

USSR 6th goal
Larionov on the breakaway. Kasatonov hits him with a nice pass, but I think I could have made that pass, so completely wide-open and undefended was Larionov, while Kasatonov had all day to fire said pass. Can't really fault the goalie when they give up PP breakaways to world-elite players. When you see the replay of this, it looks like Larionov is taking a penalty-shot because no Cdn. forward is within 15 feet of him from behind. They'd given up by this point.

USSR 7th goal
Golikov scores on a fairly routine back-hander as he skates toward the net. Liut just misses this one, and it looks bad. But the game was already over and was an embarrassment before this goes in...

USSR 8th goal
Skvortsov scores with a wrister taken on a high-speed 2-on-1. On the one hand, it's a short-side shot so Liut should probably stop it. On the other hand, it's yet another free shot, basically from the slot, this time taken by a player moving at top speed. How about give a goalie a chance?

In conclusion, I would give Liut the following percentage of the blame on each goal against:
1st -- 10% (90% to Cdn. skaters)
2nd -- 50% (probably should stop this, but then again he couldn't see it)
3rd -- 10% (90% on Cdn. skaters)
4th -- 20% (80% to Cdn. PP skaters, of which 40% to Lafleur)
5th -- 5% (95% to Lafleur)
6th -- 10% (90% to Cdn. skaters)
7th -- 90% (Liut's got to stop this, but it wouldn't have mattered)
8th -- 25% (75% to Cdn. skaters)

So, I guess on average I give Liut 27.5% of the blame, and I give Team Canada skaters 72.5% of the blame on each goal that went in. (Needless to say, I'm not even considering saves that Luit made, etc.)

However, of the goals that actually mattered (goals 1 to 5), I give Liut only 19% of the blame and Team Canada skaters 81% (incl. Lafleur 27% by himself).
 
I may have been dropped on my head, but I feel like we had this discussion at least once before. Didn't someone flash up the clips?

My recollection, as I was a 13-year-old goalie at the time, was that Liut didn't make the saves he needed to make. The team in front of him was flat, for sure, but those are times you need your goalie to keep you in it until you wake up.

EDIT: Found it
Peter25

Thread 'Was Mike Liut bad in the 1981 Canada Cup final?'

Canadians usually blame Mike Liut for the 1-8 loss in the Canada Cup final of 1981. But was he really that bad in that game?

The way I see it the last two Soviet goals (scored by Golikov and Skvortsov) were soft goals. The rest of the goals were scored either from breakaways or from prime scoring areas.

1-0: Larionov scores from a great pass from Krutov in front of Liut's goal. Nothing Liut can do.

2-1: Fetisov passes the puck to the slot. Bourque tries to clear but is checked by Shepelev who scores with a backhand shot. Liut is completely screened. Liut had no time to react.

3-1...
 
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The Panther said:
USSR 6th goal
Larionov on the breakaway. Kasatonov hits him with a nice pass, but I think I could have made that pass, so completely wide-open and undefended was Larionov, while Kasatonov had all day to fire said pass. Can't really fault the goalie when they give up PP breakaways to world-elite players. When you see the replay of this, it looks like Larionov is taking a penalty-shot because no Cdn. forward is within 15 feet of him from behind. They'd given up by this point.
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This has always been a strange one to me. I don't look into it all that much because it was 5-1 and the Soviets had a power play with about 4 minutes left. So I think Team Canada was checking out. But this is a Soviet power play and Robinson is on the ice as one of the defenders. It wasn't a fluke play, it wasn't a bad line change or anything. It was both Canadian defensemen at the line just standing there. Not playing back further, just hanging around at the blue line and they let Larionov walk in with very little resistance. Like I said, I guess it doesn't matter, but you still need to play for pride, even if you aren't winning the game at 5-1 late in the 3rd period, you still play for your goalie, for your team. You try not to make it worse. Because that was just ugly the final three goals. Not for Liut so much although the 7th goal was weak. But the team in general. I was watching some of the 3rd period and it looks like Goring and Gainey are still trying on the penalty kill.

That was the thing with this game, it did not get out of hand until probably the Krutov goal to make it 5-1. That's on Lafleur's lap. Canada has a power play and are down 4-1, there is still hope at that time. I have no idea why Gretzky of all people made such a horrible pass in the first place though. I get it, they were desperate and would be taking risks, and I guess he's only 20 at this time, but I don't think I've ever seen such poor judgment from Gretzky at any time in his career. He passed to no one but red shirts. His teammates were deeper in the zone, why not pass behind the net? I am not sure what he was doing. Bad pass for sure, but Lafleur could have at least tried to play defense. Liut would have needed to make a very good save to save their bacon on that one.
 
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Crosby2010 said:
I have no idea why Gretzky of all people made such a horrible pass in the first place though. I get it, they were desperate and would be taking risks, and I guess he's only 20 at this time, but I don't think I've ever seen such poor judgment from Gretzky at any time in his career. He passed to no one but red shirts. His teammates were deeper in the zone, why not pass behind the net? I am not sure what he was doing.
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I missed that, as I think it didn't appear in the video I saw. So, maybe the blame goes:
5% - Liut
50% -- Lafleur
45% -- Gretzky
 
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Jumptheshark said:
Curious how many people here were alive to watch it live
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Nope. I was alive, but too young to watch or care.

My "live" hockey memory includes a few random moments circa 1984 to 1986, but I really I only remember things from midway through 1986-87 in real time. And even then I wasn't allowed to stay up late to watch third periods...
 
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