How many first round loses is Dubas allowed before he should be fired?

[ShaneFalco]

Last year making changes would have seemed somewhat logical. This year though, after what was the best regular season in team history and coming within an inch of beating the powerhouse TB team in the playoffs, the optics are much different. If they stuck with Dubas last year, there's no reason to expect them not to stick with him this year. Of course the simpletons will scream about how it's just another 1st round exit as if they're all the same but whatever.

Simpletons

 

[Gary Nylund]

Simpletons

Exactly! There's so many of them too, just saying the same thing over and over again.

 

[WildWolfdog]

After a laughable performance against montreal, this team did not show up to play in Game 2, Game 4 and turtled in Game 6 in the 3rd period with only 4 shots on goal.

Coach kept saying "happy with split"; "we are fine" other BS; with icing on the cake of "respect in handshake line" in Game 7

This is not a team that played like they had something to prove after montreal embarrassment. They were too complacent. That is not acceptable.

If not for a phantom call to start the 5 on 3 PP and then Vasi standing on his head right afterwards, Leafs would've been in the 2nd round.

Either way, coulda shoulda woulda - they didn't get it done.

But I have a hard time lumping this series with the previous two.

 

[Drytoast]

Dubas is probably the smartest gm we've ever had. And who the f*** would you guys replace him with?

 

[WildWolfdog]

I do realize that we used to (use to?) miss the playoffs routinely.

Before Lou, we had made the playoffs once in about a dozen years. With him as gm, we came last and drafted matthews. We then made the PO twice in a row, something we had not done since around 04.

So in three years lou turned us from a team that cant even make the post season to a team that can make it yearly. We then replaced Lou with dubas after setting a franchise record in points.

Dubas has us exactly where we were when he took over. We make the PO every year but are 0-6.

The goal is to win the cup which involves winning 4 rounds. Dubas has zero wins in four years.

If we lose again in the first round next year, will that be enough for you to accept that dubas needs to go? Or is 5 wasted years not enough?

Lol, how are you giving credit to Lou for the same things Dubas has done - but then turning around and blaming Dubas for the same things Lou did? Lou was brought in to clean house and help rebuild - and he did a good job in the beginning before signing guys like Marleau and Zaitsev to ridiculous contracts and not signing guys like Nylander (perhaps intentionally out of spite for Dubas being selected instead of himself - doesn't matter now).

Bottoming out is not a hard thing to do - they didn't make some magic moves to get Matthews. They tanked two years in a row and ended up missing out on McDavid and then finally winning the lottery and picking Matthews. He was the consensus #1 pick.

How many rounds did they win with Lou? He had 0 wins in 4 years as well, no?

And with Dubas they just set the franchise record in wins, points, points percentage - everything.

So which is it? Lou was just as bad as Dubas? Or Dubas was just as good as Lou but neither got a playoff win, yet?

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'd rather go toe to toe with the best team in the league and lose by a goal than beat a depleted bubble team and then get swept in embarassing fashion as soon as we face a serious contender.

What confidence has been inspired in Florida, what's there to build on here? They look like an AHL team compared to Tampa, it's clear their roster isn't competitive without major changes they can no longer afford to make because they are about to enter cap hell with no picks.

Again, don't care about other teams they have their own story

 

[Gary Nylund]

If not for a phantom call to start the 5 on 3 PP and then Vasi standing on his head right afterwards, Leafs would've been in the 2nd round.

Either way, coulda shoulda woulda - they didn't get it done.

But I have a hard time lumping this series with the previous two.

All true. They didn't get it done but in the couple of decades since our last playoff win, the MTL series was probably the worst we played in any series and the TB series was the best we played. Lumping them them together is something only a simpleton could do.

Dubas is probably the smartest gm we've ever had. And who the f*** would you guys replace him with?

Not sure if he's the smartest ever but smartest in a while for sure.

And good question!

 

[Gabriel426]

You're right, but I think at some point there's a breaking point. If we saw what happened last year with Montreal this year I think some drastic changes would have been made. Playing a tough series bought them one last year.

Also I thought only Dubas might get fired this year as he burned his fire a coach card early and he really put his career on the line with this core. However, now it looks like Shanny is betting his time with the Leafs on Dubas. That's why I'm thinking this year more than any has a legitimate chance of seeing the front office cleared out if we don't do anything of significance next year.

I think some type of changes are needed. Trotz is available and I think it is foolish not to considering upgrading the coach.

 

[ToneDog]

Absolutely was. Not sure where are next year with Muzzin slowing down

And still not good enough. Think about it. We had a dman we traded Ritchie and a 2nd/3rd for (and Dzingel), playing on our top pair. We also had Holl playing on our bottom pair. There is room for improvement. Sadly some said our D was as good as Tampa's and took shots at Victor f'n Hedman.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And still not good enough. Think about it. We had a dman we traded Ritchie and a 2nd/3rd for (and Dzingel), playing on our top pair. We also had Holl playing on our bottom pair. There is room for improvement. Sadly some said our D was as good as Tampa's and took shots at Victor f'n Hedman.

Awfully damn close though. We need to get better but then again, every team tries to get better every off-season so we're no different from any other team in that regard.

I wouldn't take any shots at Hedman, he's a great player. That said, is it really outrageous to say our D is as good as Tampa's?

Obviously it sucks to lose, again. And again and again and again.

On the bright side though, we're awfully damn close. IMO our biggest need is a #1 goalie but no matter what we do, we will again be one of the top favorites to win the cup next season.

 

[ToneDog]

Awfully damn close though. We need to get better but then again, every team tries to get better every off-season so we're no different from any other team in that regard.

I wouldn't take any shots at Hedman, he's a great player. That said, is it really outrageous to say our D is as good as Tampa's?

Obviously it sucks to lose, again. And again and again and again.

On the bright side though, we're awfully damn close. IMO our biggest need is a #1 goalie but no matter what we do, we will again be one of the top favorites to win the cup next season.

The D as it stands now is not the D that they were comparing to Tampa's. You can probably go back a few years. Adding Gio to our bottom pair is huge. Playoff Muzzin >>>> Regular season Muzzin.

 

[Dreakmur]

Awfully damn close though. We need to get better but then again, every team tries to get better every off-season so we're no different from any other team in that regard.

I wouldn't take any shots at Hedman, he's a great player. That said, is it really outrageous to say our D is as good as Tampa's?

Obviously it sucks to lose, again. And again and again and again.

On the bright side though, we're awfully damn close. IMO our biggest need is a #1 goalie but no matter what we do, we will again be one of the top favorites to win the cup next season.

Yes, it's outrageous to say out D is even close to Tampa's.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't think he'd keep Willie just because of perception or whatever. Keep in mind that all the Dubas haters were predicting that he'd mortage the future at the TDL in a desperate attempt to win at least one round in order to keep his job but that didn't happen.

I don't know, it's hard to figure what he's thinking and that's why I say I'd need to interview him before making any kind of decision. So keep him or fire him, I dunno, I just don't have enough information. He's staying as GM so I hope he's thinking the right things, not much else I can do.

I had said this from the beginning of Dubas tenure:

Shanny is the guy who is in love with skill more than Dubas and is influencing his decision making.

If you look at Dubas' Marlie teams and even in the OHL...he had some big and rough guys playing on them. Something happened when he became GM that led him to keep making bets on Petan and Malgin type guys. It seems he is going back to "size is important" as he evolves as a GM. I really blame Shanny for a lot of this teams mishaps because he has such a hard on for skill above everything and is almost embarrassed by the type of player he was.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

Awfully damn close though. We need to get better but then again, every team tries to get better every off-season so we're no different from any other team in that regard.

I wouldn't take any shots at Hedman, he's a great player. That said, is it really outrageous to say our D is as good as Tampa's?

Obviously it sucks to lose, again. And again and again and again.

On the bright side though, we're awfully damn close. IMO our biggest need is a #1 goalie but no matter what we do, we will again be one of the top favorites to win the cup next season.

Listen to this guy. Like myself he lived through the Ballard era. Weve seen it all

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Not blaming on Lou but Marleau was a Lou signing.
I agree that JT was and should not be consider at the time of Marleau signing bc JT could have resigned with the Islanders. However, to say Marleau’s deal was a not bad deal for the Leafs is really far off. It was not a good deal from the start and made it worst due to JT’s signing.
Honestly, when the Marleau deal happened, I thought Lou was going to trade JVR for picks and prospects but JVR ended up being an own rental. Would had made more sense if JVR was traded that summer.

I hated the Marleau signing from the first day. I am not saying Lou did a smart thing...he didn't. But at the same time the extra cap space wasn't a big deal when he signed it and if we did not sign JT ...we would not have had to trade away players just to sign Marner. The JT signing is what set us back more than anything IMO.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

This happens every year. Remember years ago arguing we had a top defence based on some stats, then disappearing until it started again next year, with a dose of arrogance too, which I just love.

Excuse me Sir, I have a question, Mr. Kotter!

Was your vote in the poll a sarcastic vote?

 

[Gabriel426]

I hated the Marleau signing from the first day. I am not saying Lou did a smart thing...he didn't. But at the same time the extra cap space wasn't a big deal when he signed it and if we did not sign JT ...we would not have had to trade away players just to sign Marner. The JT signing is what set us back more than anything IMO.

In hindsight, JT was not a good signing. But the Marleau one was bad from the start. I think lets say JT didn't sign with Leafs. The Leafs would had made use of the cap, now we can argue, maybe Dubas can get some good one year deals...but how many UFA one year deal were signed over the past few years(excluding vets like Spezza, Perry...). At the end, Dubas will use that 11mil and sign players to help Leafs compete for the Cup. Point is, JT or not, Marleau's deal is bad and would cause Leafs to send players away.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

In hindsight, JT was not a good signing. But the Marleau one was bad from the start. I think lets say JT didn't sign with Leafs. The Leafs would had made use of the cap, now we can argue, maybe Dubas can get some good one year deals...but how many UFA one year deal were signed over the past few years(excluding vets like Spezza, Perry...). At the end, Dubas will use that 11mil and sign players to help Leafs compete for the Cup. Point is, JT or not, Marleau's deal is bad and would cause Leafs to send players away.

But we didn't need the cap space at the time until we signed JT. I agree with you that the signing of Patty was stupid...but the money was not that big a problem until Dubas turned it into a problem. I still don't understand why Lou didn't front load the deal with bonuses so he could be shipped off for a 4th round pick to arizona because it would be just a cap hit and no money owed. That part was stupid to leave the 3rd year the way it was.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

And it begins

They're coming back now that Tampa's ahead of Florida 3-0. In their small minds it justifies the losing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The D as it stands now is not the D that they were comparing to Tampa's. You can probably go back a few years. Adding Gio to our bottom pair is huge. Playoff Muzzin >>>> Regular season Muzzin.

That makes sense then, thanks for the clarification. And yeah, playoff Muzzin was indeed very good!

Yes, it's outrageous to say out D is even close to Tampa's.

I disagree, I like our D a lot!

In hindsight, JT was not a good signing. But the Marleau one was bad from the start. I think lets say JT didn't sign with Leafs. The Leafs would had made use of the cap, now we can argue, maybe Dubas can get some good one year deals...but how many UFA one year deal were signed over the past few years(excluding vets like Spezza, Perry...). At the end, Dubas will use that 11mil and sign players to help Leafs compete for the Cup. Point is, JT or not, Marleau's deal is bad and would cause Leafs to send players away.

Exactly this. A bad contract is a bad contract period.

 

[nuck]

I had said this from the beginning of Dubas tenure:

Shanny is the guy who is in love with skill more than Dubas and is influencing his decision making.

If you look at Dubas' Marlie teams and even in the OHL...he had some big and rough guys playing on them. Something happened when he became GM that led him to keep making bets on Petan and Malgin type guys. It seems he is going back to "size is important" as he evolves as a GM. I really blame Shanny for a lot of this teams mishaps because he has such a hard on for skill above everything and is almost embarrassed by the type of player he was.

I don't actually think Shanahan has had much to do with the roster. I believe like any GM Dubas updates him on his bigger decisions like the major signings but the lust for skill was early Dubas and I believe the evolution of the lineup has been driven by trial and error and not the GM being steered. Shanny had no front office background and I think he knows he doesn't know much and stays mostly in his own lane. He would be Lennie from "Of Mice and Men" and Dubas is George.

This is not the all dangle lineup that Babcock started his final season with and the lack of sand right now is more bad luck than intentional. Muzz being injury prone, Simmonds not being effective, and Ritchie being unable to produce for Keefe aren't anti crunch decisions made by either the Pres or the GM. KD also tried to some add instant grit with Thornton and later Foligno so that tells me the club values it. The cost to trade to acquire guys who can play and still bang bodies is just too high for the Leaf's cap situation. Is the reluctance to break up his skilled big four because KD doesn't value physicality or just because he thinks he can put enough around those guys to build a winner? We honestly don't know what he would do with another $5-6M in cap but I would not expect pigmys.

Some failure to develop home grown physicality through the draft may be on Dubas but we are only just seeing the fruits of his early drafts now. Remember Hunter left in April of 2018 so it was probably his draft list they were working off of that year meaning the first all-KD draft was 2019 when he had no 1st and chose Robertson who went well below where most had him ranked. I wonder if some of us may have been projecting our GM's early infatuation with scoring onto his later drafting when the bias away from the physical was not all that great until 2020 (when a number of the vertically challenged he selected could be close to BPA). Also he would not have even seen most of those picks so it is his scouts and AGM who you can credit or blame with everyone after Amirov basically. While he says "bring me skill first and foremost" he definitely did not say fun size only.I think they thought they were bringing him the best picks available, period.

I can't help but think if Dubas traded Willie for a physical RD and signed Evander Kane his image would change overnight. I don't know if he would/could do those things but its not out of the question.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Dubas is probably the smartest gm we've ever had. And who the f*** would you guys replace him with?

Anyone but Dubas.

 

[Dreakmur]

I disagree, I like our D a lot!

Their top-4 absolutely annihilates ours.

 

[JKG33]

Who did better in the playoffs, us or Florida? Does beating a weak Washington team before getting smoked 4-0 with embarassing scores make you feel better than a competitive series with the same team?

No. Florida actually won a round. Sure they beat a weak-ish Washington team, but the Leafs couldn't even beat Montreal and Columbus so that argument is out the window

Any other organization would have cleaned house 2 years ago after losing a ton of playoff revenue.

MLSE loves Dubas because he is good with the media and is considered highly progressive with hires putting women in places of importance which also scores huge points.

Get more violence out of sports also love him because he loves Euro style hockey and frowns on Canadian style sandpaper crash and bash hockey and is against any fighting.


What I am saying is the Leafs rake it in like no other teams so are not dependent on playoff revenue.
Many others teams need every cent they can get from the playoffs and it is their main source or profit.

I honestly think his chief asset is his relationship with the media, anyone else and they’d be calling for Dubas’ head but he’s a real charmer there. Communication is our GM’s greatest trait.

He reminds me so much of Justin Trudeau, and has since he got hired. And I mean this in the worst possible way.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't actually think Shanahan has had much to do with the roster. I believe like any GM Dubas updates him on his bigger decisions like the major signings but the lust for skill was early Dubas and I believe the evolution of the lineup has been driven by trial and error and not the GM being steered. Shanny had no front office background and I think he knows he doesn't know much and stays mostly in his own lane. He would be Lennie from "Of Mice and Men" and Dubas is George.

This is not the all dangle lineup that Babcock started his final season with and the lack of sand right now is more bad luck than intentional. Muzz being injury prone, Simmonds not being effective, and Ritchie being unable to produce for Keefe aren't anti crunch decisions made by either the Pres or the GM. KD also tried to some add instant grit with Thornton and later Foligno so that tells me the club values it. The cost to trade to acquire guys who can play and still bang bodies is just too high for the Leaf's cap situation. Is the reluctance to break up his skilled big four because KD doesn't value physicality or just because he thinks he can put enough around those guys to build a winner? We honestly don't know what he would do with another $5-6M in cap but I would not expect pigmys.

Some failure to develop home grown physicality through the draft may be on Dubas but we are only just seeing the fruits of his early drafts now. Remember Hunter left in April of 2018 so it was probably his draft list they were working off of that year meaning the first all-KD draft was 2019 when he had no 1st and chose Robertson who went well below where most had him ranked. I wonder if some of us may have been projecting our GM's early infatuation with scoring onto his later drafting when the bias away from the physical was not all that great until 2020 (when a number of the vertically challenged he selected could be close to BPA). Also he would not have even seen most of those picks so it is his scouts and AGM who you can credit or blame with everyone after Amirov basically. While he says "bring me skill first and foremost" he definitely did not say fun size only.I think they thought they were bringing him the best picks available, period.

I can't help but think if Dubas traded Willie for a physical RD and signed Evander Kane his image would change overnight. I don't know if he would/could do those things but its not out of the question.

Great post! Should be compulsory reading for all the people blinded by hate who keep posting that Dubas only likes smurfs and other such drivel.

Anyone but Dubas.

Well done my good man. It's well thought out logic like this that keeps us coming back here. I sometimes think that the people like you who hate Dubas just sound so damn smart the way you explain your reasoning, maybe you're on to something.

Their top-4 absolutely annihilates ours.

One thing Dubas has done is massively improved our D to the point where I'm pretty sure nobody's D is that much better than ours. There's also more than 4 D-men on a team so there is that as well.