How far is Craig Ramsay from the Hall of Fame?

[Passchendaele]

He was considered one of the best defensive forwards of his era.

Interestingly, he finished 2nd to Bob Gainey for the Selke three times.

Won it in 1985. Finished 7th or better every single season of his career for the award (while it existed, it appeared halfway through his career).

He was also much better offensively than Gainey.

What do you think? Underrated?

 

[Hardyvan123]

He was considered one of the best defensive forwards of his era.

Interestingly, he finished 2nd to Bob Gainey for the Selke three times.

Won it in 1985. Finished 7th or better every single season of his career for the award (while it existed, it appeared halfway through his career).

He was also much better offensively than Gainey.

What do you think? Underrated?

The thing is that he is a better player than Gainey but didn't play on a dynasty and doesn't have 5 SC rings so no he won't get into the HHOF unless he buys a ticket.

 

[Killion]

The thing is that he is a better player than Gainey but didn't play on a dynasty and doesn't have 5 SC rings so no he won't get into the HHOF unless he buys a ticket.

And what makes you think he was a better player than Bob Gainey Hv?.... the 8 - 20 or better goal seasons? You talking "total game", that though he was a notch below Gainey defensively (if you even believe that) his offensive prowess more than made up for it? He was runner-up for the Selke 3X's so what was it that you saw that the people voting to award that Trophy to Gainey didnt see that would lead you to believe he was more deserving than Gainey? No, Craig Ramsey didnt play on a Dynasty but he did play on a Dynasty-Like line with his long time friend Don Luce & Danny Gare. One of the greatest during that era and not hard to imagine them fitting right in with Montreal.... Like Gainey & others a product of Roger Neilson in Peterborough with the Petes.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It depends if you ask seventieslord or not.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The thing is that he is a better player than Gainey but didn't play on a dynasty and doesn't have 5 SC rings so no he won't get into the HHOF unless he buys a ticket.

That is very debatable.

His numbers look better than Gainey but on the defensive side he played on a small rink half the time, and on the offensive side he played a different role than Gainey who wasn't counted on for it and was more specialized.

For sure he was a great player, though. They should recognize these defensive guys in the hall more than they do at the moment.

 

[Hardyvan123]

And what makes you think he was a better player than Bob Gainey Hv?.... the 8 - 20 or better goal seasons? You talking "total game", that though he was a notch below Gainey defensively (if you even believe that) his offensive prowess more than made up for it? He was runner-up for the Selke 3X's so what was it that you saw that the people voting to award that Trophy to Gainey didnt see that would lead you to believe he was more deserving than Gainey? No, Craig Ramsey didnt play on a Dynasty but he did play on a Dynasty-Like line with his long time friend Don Luce & Danny Gare. One of the greatest during that era and not hard to imagine them fitting right in with Montreal.... Like Gainey & others a product of Roger Neilson in Peterborough with the Petes.

The offense Craig brought is the difference and his career PP line was only 17-46-63 in a little over a 1000 games.

Sure Gainey was better defensively, how much is debatable, butCraig brought it both ways and his defensive play combined with averaging 20ish ES goals a year along with 35ish ESA/year on a team that didn't have a Robinson, Lapointe on the back end simply tips the scales IMO.

If Gainey played on the KC Scouts, Canucks, Red wings or Seals this wouldn't even be a conversation would it?

And I have a ton of respect for Gainey's defensive game but on offense he was literally a non factor.

 

[Killion]

If Gainey played on the KC Scouts, Canucks, Red wings or Seals this wouldn't even be a conversation would it?

Yes it would be. It wouldnt matter where Bob Gainey had played his career because he still wouldve been.... Bob Gainey. One of the smartest hockey players to have ever laced em up. He wouldve been a standout on the Seals, the Scouts, the Barons or anywhere else he mightve played, and had the strength of character to have never said "die" and folded. The guy was a total Warrior. He wouldve made those teams a lot better than they were, been a perennial All Star, likely acquired by a Philadelphia, New York or whomever with more players going to the Scouts or wherever than were coming back with Gainey. I mean, none other than Anatoli Tarasov called him the smartest hockey player he'd ever seen. So, how does that jibe with Craig Ramsey being a better player? You kiddin me?

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

And then there is Victor Tikhonov's famous comment about Gainey. That comment has perhaps carried Gainey's status to unrealistic heights, but I still think there is a lot of truth to it. Watch the 79 NYE game. Gainey was unreal.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Yes it would be. It wouldnt matter where Bob Gainey had played his career because he still wouldve been.... Bob Gainey. One of the smartest hockey players to have ever laced em up. He wouldve been a standout on the Seals, the Scouts, the Barons or anywhere else he mightve played, and had the strength of character to have never said "die" and folded. The guy was a total Warrior. He wouldve made those teams a lot better than they were, been a perennial All Star, likely acquired by a Philadelphia, New York or whomever with more players going to the Scouts or wherever than were coming back with Gainey. I mean, none other than Anatoli Tarasov called him the smartest hockey player he'd ever seen. So, how does that jibe with Craig Ramsey being a better player? You kiddin me?

Sure I remember the quote and it was something like the Russians thinking that Gainey was the best NHL player in the world. No seriously do you even believe that to be true , or close to it?

Or for Gainey being Gainey on those poor teams I doubt it, no doubt he would be the same player but we see how a very good defensive player (close to Gainey in Ramsey) and with much better offensive ie a complete game is getting treated, no doubt in part to having zero Sc's compared to 5 for Gainey.

The reality is that a role player, which Gainey was and even as good as he was at it, just wouldn't get consideration for the HHOF on a team that didn't win 5 SC's....pretty much period.

 

[Pat Paeplow]

The reality is that a role player, which Gainey was and even as good as he was at it, just wouldn't get consideration for the HHOF on a team that didn't win 5 SC's....pretty much period.

Or, if Gainey would have played on a lesser team, he might have been deployed in a fashion that would have led to a more conventional route to the HOF.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

Gainey on one of those lousy 70s teams like the Canucks, Scouts, Capitals, Barons etc. would've been placed in the number one left wing slot on any of those teams because they lacked the talent. He would've been forced into a two-way role, they wouldn't have been able to afford to stick a talent like Gainey in a third-line checking role when he would've been the best player on any of those teams. Under those circumstances, he probably would've put up numbers close to or better than Ramsay while playing first line minutes & special teams. Yeah, he didn't have great hands or shifty passes, but he was speedy & could check the puck off anyone. Having him dig out the puck in the corners to set up a Dennis Maruk or Wilf Paiement type might've put Gainey in the 60-80 point range. Heck, for a couple of years the Canucks relied on offense from guys like Rick Blight & Ron Sedlbauer: regardless of their offensive skill, I'm certain Gainey on the Canucks could've at least matched these guys.

 

[Big Phil]

How much offense did people expect Gainey to produce on those dynasty Habs teams? He was well down the pecking order offensively. The bottom line is that an award was inspired because of Bob Gainey. How many people can say this? That helps, along with the fact he won it 4 times in a row. Throw in the 5 Cups (one as a captain) and a Conn Smythe trophy in 1979 against the likes of Lafleur and Lemaire and you can see the significant difference in Gainey and Ramsay.

Not that Ramsay isn't right in the mold of a Carbonneau/Lehtinen/Provost type of player because he is. But those guys aren't in either and Gainey is for a reason. You can't induct every role player because all of the sudden the standard will be dropped yet again for the HHOF. Ramsay had a fine career but when Team Canada came calling for the Canada Cups it was always Gainey and not Ramsay cracking the line up. They inducted the best and it is hard to justify another player in that role making enough of an impact to get into the HHOF. If they had to pick one more then Provost or Carbonneau are my first choices.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Or, if Gainey would have played on a lesser team, he might have been deployed in a fashion that would have led to a more conventional route to the HOF.

I guess that's possible but watching him play and looking at his junior stats and the guys he did play with in Montreal, ie good puck moving Dmen, it's highly unlikely.

Ggainey was a specialist playing on a team that was a dynasty along with a very good string of Dmen (5 of them making our top 60 Dman list of all time).

As good as he was at his specialty it's hard to see those Habs teams missing him as much as those Sabers would miss Craig.

Quite simply Craig was a more rounded player and he had more value and impact in winning games than Gainey did IMO.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

I guess that's possible but watching him play and looking at his junior stats and the guys he did play with in Montreal, ie good puck moving Dmen, it's highly unlikely.

Ggainey was a specialist playing on a team that was a dynasty along with a very good string of Dmen (5 of them making our top 60 Dman list of all time).

As good as he was at his specialty it's hard to see those Habs teams missing him as much as those Sabres would miss Craig.

Quite simply Craig was a more rounded player and he had more value and impact in winning games than Gainey did IMO.

Other than the Bruins in 79, the Isles gave Montreal a run in 76 and 77. Often forgotten is the clinching game in I think 76 with the series 3-2 for Montreal. Gainey scores both goals in a 2-1 win on Long Island. Not Lafleur, not Shutt, etc...He played well in the big games.

However, I do think that time and place has a significant impact on certain players careers. Had Gainey been a Sabre, he would have stood out, but not likely not a HOFer.

 

[Passchendaele]

Gainey on one of those lousy 70s teams like the Canucks, Scouts, Capitals, Barons etc. would've been placed in the number one left wing slot on any of those teams because they lacked the talent. He would've been forced into a two-way role, they wouldn't have been able to afford to stick a talent like Gainey in a third-line checking role when he would've been the best player on any of those teams. Under those circumstances, he probably would've put up numbers close to or better than Ramsay while playing first line minutes & special teams. Yeah, he didn't have great hands or shifty passes, but he was speedy & could check the puck off anyone. Having him dig out the puck in the corners to set up a Dennis Maruk or Wilf Paiement type might've put Gainey in the 60-80 point range. Heck, for a couple of years the Canucks relied on offense from guys like Rick Blight & Ron Sedlbauer: regardless of their offensive skill, I'm certain Gainey on the Canucks could've at least matched these guys.

Unlikely.

In his draft year, Gainey finished 11th in scoring on his team with 43 pts.

For the sake of comparison, Rick Blight scored 60 goals and 112 pts.

 

[thom]

Closer than some people think but yes Gainey was a warrier a guy who played with seperated shoulder in a series in 78 I believe and was given injections daily to curb pain.At same time his offence stats are poor but his heart and no loose attidude is in elite level.Craig was a very good player and his stats are close to Gainey but he has no rings.People think Jean Pronovost who was a great habs checker who played in 1960s should be a Hall of fame.Sadly Ramsay and Pronovost will never be in hall but one who might be is Guy Carboneau-3 time trophy winner,2 time cup winner and off stats are superior to Gainey though not quite as good

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Closer than some people think but yes Gainey was a warrier a guy who played with seperated shoulder in a series in 78 I believe and was given injections daily to curb pain.At same time his offence stats are poor but his heart and no loose attidude is in elite level.Craig was a very good player and his stats are close to Gainey but he has no rings.People think Jean Pronovost who was a great habs checker who played in 1960s should be a Hall of fame.Sadly Ramsay and Pronovost will never be in hall but one who might be is Guy Carboneau-3 time trophy winner,2 time cup winner and off stats are superior to Gainey though not quite as good

I think you meant Claude Provost.

 

[TheStroker]

I don't think he will make it in.

 

[Archangel]

When you look at what he actually did. He is not close to be a hall of famer. Gainey won four selke to Ramsey's one. Gainey was better at shutting down the other teams best player

 

[blogofmike]

He was probably better than Gainey. But the writers at the time had no idea how to measure that. And he is less significant than Gainey for that unfortunate reason.

People noticed Gainey. They didn't notice Ramsay. Largely because one played for Buffalo and one played for Montreal.

 

[thom]

thanks cleghorn-that who I meant

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

Unlikely.

In his draft year, Gainey finished 11th in scoring on his team with 43 pts.

For the sake of comparison, Rick Blight scored 60 goals and 112 pts.

for the sake of comparison, by the age of 25, Blight was playing in Dallas, tearing up the tier II Central Hockey League with his offensive skill, netting 95 points: but he was finished in the NHL.

Gainey at 25 won four Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, two Selkes, played in two All-Star games & played for Team Canada at the Canada Cup. Gainey's offensive high in the NHL was 23-24-47 while playing on the checking line; Blight's NHL high was 28-40-68 playing first line & power play minutes. at Blight's best, he only outscored Gainey by 5 goals. Gainey's last 20-goal season was as a 32 year old playing on a line with Guy Carbonneau & Chris Nilan.

in Gainey's rookie year, he was 13th in scoring on the Habs, 17-20-37. the top LW on the expansion Scouts that year was Guy Charron, 13-29-42 [2nd in Scouts scoring], on the Capitals was Denis Dupere 20-15-35 [2nd in Caps scoring], & on the perennial bottom-feeding Seals was one hit wonder Dave Hrechkosy 29-14-43 [3rd in Seals scoring].

there have been plenty of workhorse wingers in hockey history who have been elevated to number one slots, despite lacking offensive gifts, & produced well.

by 1976, the Soviets were calling 22-year old Gainey the smartest hockey player in the world. between his speed & his superior hockey sense, he could've adapted to taking on a more offensive role on a weaker team, if needed. a consistent 15-20 goal 30-45 point 3rd line checking specialist playing first line & power play minutes will undoubtedly be a 30+ 60+ point guy consistently.

 

[blogofmike]

for the sake of comparison, by the age of 25, Blight was playing in Dallas, tearing up the tier II Central Hockey League with his offensive skill, netting 95 points: but he was finished in the NHL.

Gainey at 25 won four Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, two Selkes, played in two All-Star games & played for Team Canada at the Canada Cup. Gainey's offensive high in the NHL was 23-24-47 while playing on the checking line; Blight's NHL high was 28-40-68 playing first line & power play minutes. at Blight's best, he only outscored Gainey by 5 goals. Gainey's last 20-goal season was as a 32 year old playing on a line with Guy Carbonneau & Chris Nilan.

in Gainey's rookie year, he was 13th in scoring on the Habs, 17-20-37. the top LW on the expansion Scouts that year was Guy Charron, 13-29-42 [2nd in Scouts scoring], on the Capitals was Denis Dupere 20-15-35 [2nd in Caps scoring], & on the perennial bottom-feeding Seals was one hit wonder Dave Hrechkosy 29-14-43 [3rd in Seals scoring].

there have been plenty of workhorse wingers in hockey history who have been elevated to number one slots, despite lacking offensive gifts, & produced well.

by 1976, the Soviets were calling 22-year old Gainey the smartest hockey player in the world. between his speed & his superior hockey sense, he could've adapted to taking on a more offensive role on a weaker team, if needed. a consistent 15-20 goal 30-45 point 3rd line checking specialist playing first line & power play minutes will undoubtedly be a 30+ 60+ point guy consistently.

I think there's plenty of doubt.

I don't see Gainey scoring 60+ points on an expansion team like Vancouver that usually scored a goal a game less than Montreal. I can definitely see Blight outscoring Gainey on the Canadiens, even on the bottom six, or if his knees hadn't failed him, with Edmonton in 1982.

A lot of Gainey's scoring can be attributed to his team being one of the best scoring teams in hockey during his tenure. And that had nothing to do with his consistent 9th and 10th place finishes in team scoring. While he had a good run in the 1979 playoffs, his peak points finish saw him put up numbers similar to Rod Langway, who when placed in a bigger role in Washington saw his offensive numbers fall off of a cliff, in spite of his strong defensive skills.

I think it's going much too far to presume that Gainey had the offensive talent to carry a poor team, when (offensively) he was mostly a hanger-on in Montreal.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think there's plenty of doubt.

I don't see Gainey scoring 60+ points on an expansion team like Vancouver that usually scored a goal a game less than Montreal. I can definitely see Blight outscoring Gainey on the Canadiens, even on the bottom six, or if his knees hadn't failed him, with Edmonton in 1982.

A lot of Gainey's scoring can be attributed to his team being one of the best scoring teams in hockey during his tenure. And that had nothing to do with his consistent 9th and 10th place finishes in team scoring. While he had a good run in the 1979 playoffs, his peak points finish saw him put up numbers similar to Rod Langway, who when placed in a bigger role in Washington saw his offensive numbers fall off of a cliff, in spite of his strong defensive skills.

I think it's going much too far to presume that Gainey had the offensive talent to carry a poor team, when (offensively) he was mostly a hanger-on in Montreal.

When Langway went to Washington, his power play time did not increase. Boom Boom was operating under the assumption that Gainey would receive PP time on a lesser team than Montreal.

Back to the Gainey vs Ramsey comparison, Gainey was a much more accomplished playoff performer. Was some of it based on the team he played on? Absolutely. But you know what? Good for Gainey for taking advantage of the team situation and excelling. Plus, Gainey never had any stinkers like Ramsey getting lit up by Rick Middleton in 1983.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

Gainey's offensive peak was in 80-81 when he hit 23-24-47; it was the fourth straight year of the Canadiens declining in the standings, & he was 8th among forwards in scoring. the Habs were bounced from round one in three. Guy Lafleur, Pierre Mondou, Pierre Larouche, Doug Risebrough & Keith Acton all spent significant time injured, so Gainey picked up a little slack offensively & only ended up 7 points back of 2nd-3rd line offensive winger Yvon Lambert at 54.

again, Gainey was speedy, intelligent, an elite checker & one of the hardest damned workers to ever step onto the ice: why is it so hard to imagine him banging in 30-40 goals / 60-80 points in the right situation? a lot of lesser players put up better stats. no, he wasn't a sniper or a playmaker, but he was effective at getting done whatever job needed to be doing. if they needed him to score goals because nobody else could do it, he would have. just think of all the clutch goals he scored in his career.