How do you fix the Wings?

The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
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Meaning that Yzerman would be 7-8 years without the playoffs.

I cannot fathom how any of you view that as even remotely acceptable. The fact that we're sitting here at the end of Year 5 and he's still not made the playoffs as Red Wings GM is a major problem.

And spare me the "oh but he improved them every year" nonsense. At some point, you need to start producing meaningful results. Why these sports executives get an unlimited runway until they finally start producing said results I find nothing short of astounding.
What a poor take this is, and completely lacking all context. Probably deliberately, because your argument completely falls apart when you consider that context.

Take a look at the roster, cap situation, and prospect pool Yzerman inherited. How quickly was he supposed to turn that around, according to you? And name some things he should have done to move the needle more quickly. We have the benefit of hindsight now. We know what players the Wings had under contract and the value (or lack therof) of those contracts. We know which players were available as free agents between 2019 and 2022 and what they ended up signing for. And we know which players were traded and the price they went for. So go ahead and name some moves he should have done to speed up that timeline in a way that's acceptable to you.

Because to me, he's done a fantastic job. He gave himself lots of cap flexibility by shedding bad contracts and spacing the new ones he signed in a way that he's always got money available. He's pulled off some shrewd trades and on the whole has brought in a lot more value than he's shipped out. And despite having the worst lottery luck in the entire league over that span, he brought in Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, and Cossa in those first 3 years. And that's on top of several other highly promising propects. Talk about knocking it out of the park. Overpaying Copp by 1.5 million a year and tying up 3 million in Holl's dead weight for a few years does not undo the massive amount of value he's brought.

He's done great with the hand he's been dealt, and applying some completely arbitrary 2-3 year timeline as if that's some cardinal rule rather than actually critically examining what he's done and the context in which he did it is foolish. So unless you can actually point to a concrete example of a thing or things he could and should have done to meet your accelerated timeline, then I can only assume your criticism is nothing but hot air.
 

lidstromiscool

Registered User
May 5, 2007
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What a poor take this is, and completely lacking all context. Probably deliberately, because your argument completely falls apart when you consider that context.

Take a look at the roster, cap situation, and prospect pool Yzerman inherited. How quickly was he supposed to turn that around, according to you? And name some things he should have done to move the needle more quickly. We have the benefit of hindsight now. We know what players the Wings had under contract and the value (or lack therof) of those contracts. We know which players were available as free agents between 2019 and 2022 and what they ended up signing for. And we know which players were traded and the price they went for. So go ahead and name some moves he should have done to speed up that timeline in a way that's acceptable to you.

Because to me, he's done a fantastic job. He gave himself lots of cap flexibility by shedding bad contracts and spacing the new ones he signed in a way that he's always got money available. He's pulled off some shrewd trades and on the whole has brought in a lot more value than he's shipped out. And despite having the worst lottery luck in the entire league over that span, he brought in Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, and Cossa in those first 3 years. And that's on top of several other highly promising propects. Talk about knocking it out of the park. Overpaying Copp by 1.5 million a year and tying up 3 million in Holl's dead weight for a few years does not undo the massive amount of value he's brought.

He's done great with the hand he's been dealt, and applying some completely arbitrary 2-3 year timeline as if that's some cardinal rule rather than actually critically examining what he's done and the context in which he did it is foolish. So unless you can actually point to a concrete example of a thing or things he could and should have done to meet your accelerated timeline, then I can only assume your criticism is nothing but hot air.
It's a fair take. Yzerman has been great in the 1st round of drafting. 2nd round and later has been ugly especially when taking into account the number of draft picks. Free agency has also been ugly. Signing mediocre free agents to overpaid contracts to almost make the playoffs is something that pretty much any team can do. Detroit was the 7th oldest team last year, it's not like the young players outside of Raymond/Seider are carrying the team. Detroit is firmly in purgatory of not being good enough to make the playoffs, and not being bad enough to get into the lottery. The team still desperately needs a 1B center, #1 goalie, and 2 top 4 dmen, and thats not taking into account the likely departures of Kane/Perron. Bottom line is this team needs elite talent
 

norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
31,428
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It's a fair take. Yzerman has been great in the 1st round of drafting. 2nd round and later has been ugly especially when taking into account the number of draft picks. Free agency has also been ugly. Signing mediocre free agents to overpaid contracts to almost make the playoffs is something that pretty much any team can do. Detroit was the 7th oldest team last year, it's not like the young players outside of Raymond/Seider are carrying the team. Detroit is firmly in purgatory of not being good enough to make the playoffs, and not being bad enough to get into the lottery. The team still desperately needs a 1B center, #1 goalie, and 2 top 4 dmen, and thats not taking into account the likely departures of Kane/Perron. Bottom line is this team needs elite talent
Good thing we have a highly rated and well-rounded prospect pool.
 
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Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
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It's a fair take. Yzerman has been great in the 1st round of drafting. 2nd round and later has been ugly especially when taking into account the number of draft picks.

You can't even judge our later roud picks yet. Usually it takes like 4-5 years to pan out from lower round to NHL.

And after 1st round and getting Seider, Yzerman no say at 2019 draft, which went pretty much with Tyler Wrights ideas for lower rounds.

Also they have been changing those scouts like mad, which is good.

But since 2020, it has been Draper and more Stevie. Those lower round guys aren't at NHL yet, but still our prospect pool is pretty hyped.
 
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Snuggs

Registered User
Jun 24, 2018
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Are you not aware of his injury history? Wrist, groin, 2 herniated discs, and hip surgery on both sides.



Kuz got a 4 year IIHF ban for cocaine and went through PAP this season. Zero chance.
Yeah... but didn't Red Wings just sign the first player ever to successfully come back from hip resurfacing surgery? More serious than any of those.

Yeah, I know, just got to trust the medical guys. If it helps, he played 83* games this year. ;)

Every player gets hurt in the NHL. IF he was coming off another injury not sure he gets the multi-year deal. If he wasn't so injured, he'd be signed to a multi-year deal already. Risky sure, but It's an upgrade cheaper thank Copp/Compher, idk if that can be argued. He's been a consistent producer.
 
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jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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probably when we start getting a solid idea what we have in Danielson, Kaspar, Cossa, and Ed.
Which on a certain level is perfectly logical. And yet I think it's fair to say that in today's world of sports, giving a GM (even one with Yzerman's track record) 8-10 years before we even evaluate the rebuild is an enormously long leash.
 

Snuggs

Registered User
Jun 24, 2018
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Which on a certain level is perfectly logical. And yet I think it's fair to say that in today's world of sports, giving a GM (even one with Yzerman's track record) 8-10 years before we even evaluate the rebuild is an enormously long leash.
It's pretty ridiculous (IMO) but I'm just trying to see where fans are. Most are totally cool losing 2 or 3 more years. Insane to me.

Just have to hope Yzerman does work this offseason.
 
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jkutswings

hot piss hockey
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He's done great with the hand he's been dealt, and applying some completely arbitrary 2-3 year timeline as if that's some cardinal rule rather than actually critically examining what he's done and the context in which he did it is foolish. So unless you can actually point to a concrete example of a thing or things he could and should have done to meet your accelerated timeline, then I can only assume your criticism is nothing but hot air.
Here's my specific criticism: he ordered too many hamburgers instead of holding out for a steak.

Individually, any of Chiarot / Compher / Copp / Sprong / Petry / Fischer / Holl would be somewhere in the range of decent move to insignificant mistake. But collectively, adding that many plugs does two things:

1) Makes it much more challenging to fit any kids on the roster; and

2) Removes a good chunk of flexibility to land a bigger fish.

Now are #1 and #2 each still technically possible? Yes. I'm not saying he completely ruined anything. But I don't see the need or benefit to have made as many "filler" moves as he did. Even at the time, it felt like an overreaction to the lack of depth from the previous year. He needed to sign a couple forwards and one defenseman, not a zillion guys all at once.

So I hope that they let several go this summer and refocus on quality over quantity. Because the Jeff Petrys of the world are not helping this rebuild.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Which on a certain level is perfectly logical. And yet I think it's fair to say that in today's world of sports, giving a GM (even one with Yzerman's track record) 8-10 years before we even evaluate the rebuild is an enormously long leash.

It today's world it does seem crazy, but I don't think that's a bad thing. If we had gotten really lucky with the drafts and hit on a couple of generational talents or if there was more in the cupboard when Yzerman took over or if we had a guy like Panarin want to sign with us, etc....I'd probably expect success sooner. But we didn't have those luxuries.

We're going to rise or fall with the high picks we did have. So that's where I'm setting my time line.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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We're going to rise or fall with the high picks we did have. So that's where I'm setting my time line.
Then I think you're just more optimistic about the impact of said picks than I am. Even if Larkin, Raymond, and Debrincat are PPG going forward and both Seider and Edvinsson grow into bona fide top pairing guys, I still think that at least one more really really good top six forward and top four defenseman are mandatory (in addition to whatever we get from Danielson, Kasper, Johansson, Mazur, etc.). Otherwise I see this being a second round exit kinda team, even after all the kids grow up.

Time will tell.
 
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RRhoads

Registered User
Mar 10, 2015
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I think the future is pretty bright because of the prospect pool.

I really only have an issue with these players, and I think they should be moved out:

Husso. He is injured too much, and I don't think it is a good idea to go with him and Lyon as the tandem with Cossa as the third next year. Could put Cossa in a really bad spot.

Holl. Way too much spent on a guy that doesn't play.

Maatta. He is OK, but with Ed back in the lineup, it pushes him out.

Move these players out, and we have over 10M in cap space. Enough to sign a servicable goalie and a top 4 RD. Might have to sweeten the deal on Holl and Husso, maybe with a pick or two.

We also really need a 2C, but with Kasper and Danielson in the prospect pool, and the UFA market the way it is, I would rather just go with Compher. Unless we can find someone on a one year deal.

We could really use a top 6 winger if Kane's not coming back.
 

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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Then I think you're just more optimistic about the impact of said picks than I am. Even if Larkin, Raymond, and Debrincat are PPG going forward and both Seider and Edvinsson grow into bona fide top pairing guys, I still think that at least one more really really good top six forward and top four defenseman are mandatory (in addition to whatever we get from Danielson, Kasper, Johansson, Mazur, etc.). Otherwise I see this being a second round exit kinda team, even after all the kids grow up.

Time will tell.

I just don't think we can buy our way into contention. In a few years, those kids pan out, then we can start dealing 1st rounders more easily to plug holes. But this team is going to rise and fall on its drafting.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
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I just don't think we can buy our way into contention. In a few years, those kids pan out, then we can start dealing 1st rounders more easily to plug holes. But this team is going to rise and fall on its drafting.
And I think it's based on opportunities, not when the kids are ready. Debrincat and Kane were added because of the circumstances of the added players. So, without forcing anything, keep looking for those opportunities and keep making trades when you can.

For example: say the Blues suddenly change ownership and want to blow it up this summer. I don't care if Danielson is one year away or five years away - if I can deal a handful of picks and a middle prospect or two to land a guy like Robert Thomas, I do that 10/10 times. It's an opportunity you just can't pass up, no matter where you are on the timeline.

Now obviously that's an extreme case. But all I'm asking for is to be comprehensive: continuously pursue all options for quality players that fit the timeline, and keep improving the team each year.
 

Indrid Cold

Registered User
Oct 24, 2022
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1. Extend Ray and Mo X 8. (Both at 8 aav should be considered a win)

2. Ditch Holl and Copp (Buy out for Holl, trade for Copp)

3. Trade 1st rounder for top 6 winger to replace Kane, or part of a bigger trade

4. Berger to 3rd line C

5. Ed full time top 4 pairing

6. Add a Lyon like gamble G to the mix (Adin Hill type?)

7. Keep a somber eye to the sky for a potential blockbuster trade (Zegras? Buch? Ullmark?)
 
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Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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And I think it's based on opportunities, not when the kids are ready. Debrincat and Kane were added because of the circumstances of the added players. So, without forcing anything, keep looking for those opportunities and keep making trades when you can.

For example: say the Blues suddenly change ownership and want to blow it up this summer. I don't care if Danielson is one year away or five years away - if I can deal a handful of picks and a middle prospect or two to land a guy like Robert Thomas, I do that 10/10 times. It's an opportunity you just can't pass up, no matter where you are on the timeline.

Now obviously that's an extreme case. But all I'm asking for is to be comprehensive: continuously pursue all options for quality players that fit the timeline, and keep improving the team each year.

Oh, I agree. And I don't think Yzerman is refusing to look for opportunities to improve the team. And I don't think we're in a position where Yzerman couldn't find the roster/cap space if he had to. All of the contracts people are upset about, none of them are immovable, imo.

I think such a deal is a bonus, though. Take it if you can, like Debrincat/Kane, but I don't think those are deals we can hope to be the norm.
 

The Flying Octopus

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Sep 18, 2017
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Make a big trade involving a top player from the team to send a message, like Yzerman did w Vinny. It’s not a matter of who, it’s a matter of when he does this. This core could use a lil shakeup, mixed in with, no one is safe. If Yzerman is gonna be serious, then he has to get serious and manage the roster better.
 

norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
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Which on a certain level is perfectly logical. And yet I think it's fair to say that in today's world of sports, giving a GM (even one with Yzerman's track record) 8-10 years before we even evaluate the rebuild is an enormously long leash.
What does it help to shitcan a GM in the middle of the rebuild if the GM is doing a logically good job? Just to feel better?
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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Which is by far the most likely scenario for any team at the bottom in this current lottery structure.
Agreed. This is not the same NHL that Detroit was previously successful with, nor is it the same one that Pittsburgh and Chicago used to tank their way to superstars.

I think in today's game, a successful GM needs to be an opportunist. Tampa found ways to bend the cap rules. Florida made the Tkachuk blockbuster happen. Vegas exploited the crap out of the expansion draft, took a chance on Eichel, and does a yearly rinse and repeat of adding and ditching players.

I don't want Yzerman to deal off Danielson for a veteran, or burn all their picks at once. But I think building a real contender in the lottery era is borderline impossible without turning over every rock there is, including getting lucky on a bold trade or two.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Agreed. This is not the same NHL that Detroit was previously successful with, nor is it the same one that Pittsburgh and Chicago used to tank their way to superstars.

I think in today's game, a successful GM needs to be an opportunist. Tampa found ways to bend the cap rules. Florida made the Tkachuk blockbuster happen. Vegas exploited the crap out of the expansion draft, took a chance on Eichel, and does a yearly rinse and repeat of adding and ditching players.

I don't want Yzerman to deal off Danielson for a veteran, or burn all their picks at once. But I think building a real contender in the lottery era is borderline impossible without turning over every rock there is, including getting lucky on a bold trade or two.
Still blows my mind that the league's takeaway from Edmonton getting multiple #1s and still sucking was to make #1 picks harder to get. All they seemed to care about was the PR side of things.

What the league did was very intentional. I am very curious to see how much longer this system will last.

I mean we aren't saying anything new here, this was all pretty easy to predict if you just broke it down.

1) Most franchise changing players come from the top 2-3 picks of the draft.
2) The league made it so if you finished dead last your most likely scenario was still picking outside the top 3.
3) As a result of 1) and 2), you will now have teams either stuck at the bottom or in purgatory.

I mean could you imagine if the Bears were picking 4th instead of 1st in the NFL draft this week? They would probably still continue to suck.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
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Meaning that Yzerman would be 7-8 years without the playoffs.

I cannot fathom how any of you view that as even remotely acceptable. The fact that we're sitting here at the end of Year 5 and he's still not made the playoffs as Red Wings GM is a major problem.

And spare me the "oh but he improved them every year" nonsense. At some point, you need to start producing meaningful results. Why these sports executives get an unlimited runway until they finally start producing said results I find nothing short of astounding.

Once again, what is your brilliant moves to make us better? Only thing you do is ad nausea um complain about the state of what Yzerman has done, yet you never offer anything of note to improve the team. What GM puts us in a better spot? Expecting nothing in response!
 
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Henkka

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A) Some goalie move will be made - again. Either trade or UFA.
B) Left side defenceman will be traded away
C) Yzerman will do one or two 35+ contracts, using cap space from next year.
D) Either Danielson or Kasper will be at opening night roster, as the fourth Center.
 

lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
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Team full of guys like Copp, Rasmussen, Veleno, Fischer, Compher, Danielson, Kasper. Team needs guys like Raymond. We got lucky with Larkin who was projected #2-3 line center, but becomes average to good first line center
 

DoMakc

Registered User
Jun 28, 2006
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I think by fix it the most actually think, getting into playoffs. But if we are trying to fix something, we need understand what was broken before start throwing random names. But I agree bitching about 2nd round picks is a fun alternative.

I think three most popular reasons for Red Wings missing playoffs are:

- Team defense
- Goaltending
- Inability to survive without Larkin

Goaltending is difficult to me to separate from team defense, especially with Husso he was basically thrown to wolfes in the beginging of the season. Lyon did actually quite a good job at holding the fort with starting goalie out, but he was not supposed to be the answer, he even almost managed to save the season. Reimer sucked and hopefully he is not back. My approach to goaltending would be not to do anything with it, which might be not the most popular. I think fixing defense will actually help to improve goaltending situation as much less pressure will be put on it. The ultimative answer is supposed to be Cossa, who is a year or two away now, from that perspective we don't need an expensive solution which will be difficult to deal with down the road. One caveat is Husso's health, we need to do something if he is not able to recover.

Defense issue has several layers to it - one is general roster compilation approach - Yzerman tried to "outdepth" other team having the likes of Sprong and Fabbri to feast on oppponent's weak lines. In return it meant that Red Wings sacrificed defense for that having more offensive minded players all over roster. The other issue is a lack of speed - which combined with very attacking approach lead to easy opportunities from the rush. The solution here is to have different depth players to compliment extended core.

Surviving without Larkin is a difficult task. I think it is also caused by a strategy to "outdepth" other teams. Without Larkin that approach was not working anymore, as everybody slotted a notch above, with players like Sprong, Veleno or Fabbri being exposed, especially defensively. Usually you win in absence of the most talanted players by grinding out the wins, but this roster was not compiled with an idea of grinding something out. Additionally, Larkin was one of the best or maybe even the best defensive forward with not many of them on the roster, so the defensive issues were significantly magnified by it. There are three possible solutions: add center depth, add "Larkin-like" depth regardless of position, construct the roster in way to grind out wins. I don't think adding a center is feasible - Lindholm is going to be expensive and there is not much behind him (that's why wet dreams of some posters of Copp's buyout are just that). I'm not sure if Red Wings actually can afford Guentzel or Reinhart level of player. So i think the best way is to align solution with defense solution.

Roster:

- do not resign any of Gost, Sprong, Reimer, Kane
- get rid of two out of Chiarot (yes, i think he is a part of the problem more than a part of the solution, maybe after a relatively ok season there might be some taker), Maatta, Petry, Holl. Maybe three. Petry might be open to LTIRerment. Holl buyout is also an option, but only if we there is no other solution in sight
- get rid of Fabbri - i think he just not fit into more defense-oriented roster and he cannot score while playing on top lines.
- split Raymond and Larkin in order to generate more offense
- re-sign Raymond and Seider at around 16 mil combined, Veleno and Berggren at low 1mil, AlJo at minimum. Re-sign Fischer at similar rate as for this year.
This leaves us with:
DeBrincat-Larkin-X1
X2-Compher-Raymond
Rasmussen-Copp-Berggren
Fischer-Kasper-Veleno

Edvinsson-X3
Chiarot/Maatta-AlJo
Petry/Holl

Husso/Lyon (with Cossa as Nr.3)

X1: Somebody who can keep up with Larkin and score some goals while playing defense on a certain budget. DeBrusk would a good fit, he is young enough to sign 2x5 somewhere he gets an opportunity to shine and sign a big contract after that. Alterantively, Teravainen would be also a fit to a degree, but he will look for term, is permanently injured and quite slow. Marchessault is good defensively, but also slow and old - might come on limited term. Arvidsson is not good defensively, and i think has a reputation of being somewhat lazy.

X2: Some middle of line up who is not fully inept offensively, but can provide defense and support Raymond. It get's more difficult. Foegele seems like a fit, good skater, is not a black hole offensively or defensively. He always slide to a third line if Kasper or Berggren. Alternatives: Martinook - older and more limited offensively, Stephenson - too expensive.

X3: A good skating D, who can defend in transition. Matt Roy seems like a good fit, but might be rather expensive, Sean Walker seems to be more offense oriented, but fits the bill skating- and derfense-wise. Chatfield is an interesting option, but he had the easiest minutes so his results might be driven teammate and opposition quality.

Result:

DeBrincat-Larkin-DeBrusk
Foegele-Compher-Raymond
Rasmussen-Copp-Berggren
Fischer-Kasper-Veleno

Walman-Seider
Edvinsson-Walker
Chiarot-AlJo
Petry

Have at it
 
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