What? Everything but the NHL is a fail?
Bit late this year, but i'd advise a trip to europe somewhere around the playoffs next season. You might be surprised tough.
How do you feel about McDavid never playing in the Olympics? (Mod warning post 120)
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Bit late this year, but i'd advise a trip to europe somewhere around the playoffs next season. You might be surprised tough.
I feel nothing. they can participate in Olympics if they really want. They can make a contract ending before season with Olympics, play the next season in some nice European country, like Switzerland, have more time with their family, participate in Olympics and then return to NHL next season.op said:
More likely NHL players don't value Olympics that much, and want to ensure the cash flow from NHL. Still, it might be tempting for borderline NHLers to just play in Europe and have possibility to get an Olympic medal. It's a different thing for an NHL fan here to bark how little Olympic gold means if NHLers are not in, but tell it to the players who can enjoy of Olympic atmosphere and be an Olympic medalist.
Stanley Cup means next to nothing for 99% of the people in the world. >90% of people in the world don't even know what Stanley Cup is, while Olympic medal is something universally respected, regardless of if people even know the sport itself.
This is really the most realistic way to look at it. Brazilian kids do not dream of winning the Community Shield, they dream of getting rich in the Premier League and winning the World Cup.
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Nino33
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Top players from Czechoslovakia were defecting by the early 70s, and were so happy to get out/appreciative of the opportunity they played for their "new country" - so your views on how accepting the Czech players were to the idea of "fake amateur status" and restrictions placed on their freedom/earning power is just wrong
NA ideology didn't allow for restricting movement/market value.....not only did communist ideology cheat the rules/ideals of amateur competition, it cheated the basic freedoms/rights of their own athletes - no Europea/Russian hockey player would want to go back to the communist way of doing things (training/practicing/playing hockey more than professionals in NA while having no freedom of movement and making the same as those non-players working at the arena in NA)
Nino33
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The point/discussion is about business success and earning power for players, not singing/chanting fans (and you can see loud/passionate fans in the NHL playoffs too, and you actually can overseas (without having to spend many thousands and take an extended holiday from work) because the NHL business is so big it's made available to you...not so with Elite Hockey for NA viewers
From the point of view of a player looking to maximize their earning power, except for a handful of Russians everything but the NHL is an enormous fail (and those few Russians are making less than they could in the NHL too!)
And it's not me or NA fans saying money is most important, it's the actions of European/Russian hockey players (no one forces them to play in the NHL!)
You dont understand to what I am talking about by any means. No one gave a **** about fake amateur status - it was the most meaningless problem. You obviously can not even imagine how it is to live in completely twisted enviroment when you know exactly what is wrong but you have to behave within these burdens and sometimes do something good.
Again, if IOC set up these rules, best you can say is that soviets and czechoslovaks shouldnt allow their best to go. But once again no communist regime would accept idea of pro players. I dont justify communism, I just dont understand why you can complain so much about this when you exactly know that your opponent was from state which "believed" in completely opposite values. Noone can do anything with it. This is like to compete with North Korea and constantly crying that they cheat you because they have amateurs and breaching human rights. On behalf of czechoslovak people who lived "happy" in communist heaven, not being oppressed by anybody, we feel so sorry for how terribly you canadians were cheated by IOC and probably our government that you couldnt send your best players to olympic games. If only we can send you some compensation for such a terrible breach of int law and damage of your pride.
kp61c
Registered User
I would also add they support their local teams. You can not avoid local specifics. Guys here probaly also underestimate that europlayers grow up in system where one organization can provide you from midget to senior level. I can hardly imagine that some junior in Frolunda, Sparta, Oulun, would say that his most beloved team is Minnesota wild. Its probably their favourite NHL team, but thats all. They dont even know who will draft them....
Nino33
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You completely misunderstood what I was saying, I was speaking ONLY about how Canadians/North Americans felt about hockey issues
I am not in any way a supporter of totalitarian regimes, and I believe I "know my history"
But it's a hockey website, not a history/political website
Most importantly, you completely misunderstood what I was saying (I was not in any way speaking for those who lived in communist countries! and am baffled how you could think I was)
I've emphasized again and again, in multiple threads/posts, IMO Canadians never cared about the Olympics/Worlds back then and don't really care now
And Canada's won 9 of 14 best-on-best tournaments (more than the rest of the world combined), and 3 of 5 Olympics since full NHL involvement (more than the rest of the world combined) - there's absolutely no damaged pride for you to worry about
No need to "feel sorry" for us thanks
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The obvious answer.
I agree, the NA system is so franchised out. You have junior teams and college teams and ECHL teams and AHL teams and finally NHL teams and there is absolutely no guarantee where you are playing at one point in your career is even loosely affiliated with where you end up next. In Europe you (baring your parents being the moving around every other year types) go from Frölunda U8 through to the major league team, if you are good enough.
And then there is the draft, which means that even if one kid followed the NHL as a young adult and Minnesota was their fave team, they are almost certainly not going there anyway.
I got what you speaking about. You just looking for any argument supporting your view. You are on int stage forum so you should see both sides. If you are not able to do it, then rather discuss these topics within some politic party. You describing OG like its super evil either because there was somebody brutally cheating befor or much politics involved now or even drugs?Wtf? Let me just remind you some facts. Right now we have a World cup, where all involved associations agreed to send their team. If, according to you posts here, NHL is focused just on NA market, I can guarantee you, that with this attitude, it will be hard for other associations to find the reason to participate next time. Also we have this OG case where, if I am not mistaken, NHL is interested in2022 China. I would assume that when somebody wants to have such an influence on int stage, he/it would also take appropriate responsibility for it, which at least means more focusing on fans worldwide than just focusing on its primary market as a league. Keep up when you think that hockey federations or IIHF will accept this attitude foreverer.....
Nino33
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No, you clearly didn't have a clue what I was speaking about
This is what you did
And international hockey is NOT limited to the Olympic Games and the Worlds
Your argument is completely from one side; the NHL is not going to see things your way, nor are the best players in the world, nor are NA fans (three different sides that you clearly don't understand).....I get it, you'd like to turn back time and have it be the way it was many decades ago, or have it be like it is in soccer/football, and IMO that's not going to happen! That's not seeing things "completely from one side" but rather seeing all sides and expressing an opinion on the views that have little credibility/possibility of happening
And you're the one that brought up politics/social conditions unrelated to hockey from many decades past
I don't care about the Olympic games, as is the case with most North Americans
I suggest you're projecting things onto my views because I don't see things the way you want me to, and you can't see anything but your own view (to you the Olympics must matter, so criticizing them means saying they're "super evil" - I don't care about them, I'm not the one who was suggesting stripping away past metals, but I am the one to show the 2010 Olympic Hockey Final had less viewers in the US than the singing contest American Idol regularly/repeatedly had.....I really don't think those in NA care much about the Olympics)
I have a different view...the associations will find it easy, because the best players of their countries will want to participate (all those players in the NHL that the Olympics/Worlds wants), and since the associations do NOTHING for those players they'll have little power/ability/reason to refuse
As I've said in multiple threads...get your players to agree with you and act on their agreement by leaving the NHL (and playing in Elite Leagues/the KHL and thus being available for all international play); IMO that'll be the most successful way of promoting hockey worldwide/making the game better worldwide - quit expecting the NHL to do everything for you about things you care about and they really don't
I don't think they really care much myself (I remember decades of the NHL not being fully involved in the Olympics, and the Canada [now World] Cup was a much better tournament than any Olympics ever IMO)
I agree the Forum is regarding international hockey.
But it's not just for your version of international hockey
Just because you don't like/agree with my opinions on international hockey doesn't mean they're not about international hockey
I think it's realistic to acknowledge "money and power make the world go 'round" and IMO the IOC, the IIHF, the Federations, and the Elite Leagues/KHL have so little money and power they will not be able to turn back time or make hockey like soccer/football and thus I don't see your wishful thinking coming true
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TheTwelfth
Registered User
Just to chime in, SHL average attendance this year was about 5000 people, down from last year. Allsvenskan had about 3000 people in attendance on average.
No, you clearly didn't have a clue what I was speaking
Seems you like arguing about anything
Just brief response. If NHL want to run international tourney with teams out of their organization and influence, it should also reflects their interest and their fan base, ie it should reflects everybody and try to find some compromise for them, so as IIHF has been doing to some extent. If you think money makes int hockey, I am telling you, this attitude will screw it soon or later. Shame to hear it from canadian supporter, whose country organized that famous serie against soviets (definetely just because of TV ratings).
I guess you dont know what canadian association does or did for their players, same for us, swedish etc...otherwise you would never said they did nothing. If you think they have to or they will agree to any NHL int. project, I will let you with that opinion and we will see in the future. If I were in their place I would really evaluate NHL steps on this stage and compare it to my interests. And this will not go in favour of NHL....
One add. I definetely respect that blue bolded article. I dont agree anything you written there but I strongly believe this is what NHL commisioner thinks and try to follow. And that is the reason why we dont have at least one normal proper int. tourney. I hope he will crash into the wall with that attitude soon or later. It will have happen, because, at least, no one voted that guy to be leader of int. hockey (you know these stupid old school habits like elections are fortunately still valid)
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Nino33
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[Mod]
The NHL doesn't have to do anything you're saying
Given the immense criticism of the NHL and NA by European/Russian hockey fans, I less and less believe said fans are the NHL's "fan base" (you just refuse to accept the reality that the NHL fan base is NA, and NA doesn't care about any of the issues you're talking about.....why would they? the best players in the world come to NA on their own!)
What exactly to you think Hockey Canada did for Connor McDavid that made any difference whatsoever?
The NHL is NOT telling other Leagues or the Olympics/Worlds what to do! The NHL actually does have votes on their leadership (the owners vote on NHL decisions, including keeping Bettman in his job); you don't even know what you're talking about!
Fans like you have been hoping for that wall crash since the 1970s...how's that working out for you? The NHL's more powerful than ever, with all the best players worldwide coming to them (it hasn't gotten better for your view, it's gotten worse)
[Mod]
Best wishes to you...
Who made you the boss that dictates the rules
The NHL doesn't have to do anything you're saying
Given the immense criticism of the NHL and NA by European/Russian hockey fans, I less and less believe said fans are the NHL's "fan base" (you just refuse to accept the reality that the NHL fan base is NA, and NA doesn't care about any of the issues you're talking about.....why would they? the best players in the world come to NA on their own!)
Hockey exists in Canada because parents pay for it, and taxpayers too (building arenas)...Hockey Canada in comparison does nothing; I've seen Swedish posters post the same thing (parents pay for it)
What exactly to you think Hockey Canada did for Connor McDavid that made any difference whatsoever?
I don't "agree" with it either, it's called recognizing/admitting reality (this is a good example of your not understanding at all what I'm saying)
I take it you're really young...there'll be no crashing into a wall based on what happened in the past - NHL will put on World Cups (that'll be better than any Olympics/Worlds, but many European/Russian fans will rant they're meaningless, while North American fans won't care about the ranting or the Olympics/Worlds.....that's the way it was before full involvement of the NHL in the Olympics, that's what'll happen again)
The NHL is NOT telling other Leagues or the Olympics/Worlds what to do! The NHL actually does have votes on their leadership (the owners vote on NHL decisions, including keeping Bettman in his job); you don't even know what you're talking about!
Fans like you have been hoping for that wall crash since the 1970s...how's that working out for you? The NHL's more powerful than ever, with all the best players worldwide coming to them (it hasn't gotten better for your view, it's gotten worse)
[Mod]
Best wishes to you...
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Nino33
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Add in the cost differences in tickets between the SHL and NHL, and the fewer games the SHL plays, and it's just more evidence of essentially no hope to compete with the NHL
The only "hope" is their best players will choose to make WAY less money and play in Europe/Russia and not the NHL because they believe in all the things some fans rant about (in particular nationalism and international play)
But expecting the NHL to pay more when they don't need to, so that a small minority of hockey fans that rant against them are happier.....I don't see it happening
I have hoped more than once over my lifetime there'd be less NHL teams, international Leagues/Tournaments would be better because most of the top players from outside of NA would stay in Europe/Russia and play (for nationalistic purposes, quality of life, to play internationally, to improve Elite Leagues/the KHL because they believe that's best.....alas what I've seen in my lifetime is these players are all capitalists just as greedy as any NHL owner)
I don't want to restrict player movement/choice (that just ultimately seems "wrong" to me), but I do wish that most players from Europe/Russia believed in the nationalism/Elite Leagues-KHL/international play/Federations as much as some fans so passionately do (and actually acted on these beliefs! sometimes players say they do, but their actions prove they don't); if they all chose not to play in NA I'd be totally OK with that too
I feel this way as I liked hockey better in the 70s and 80s and international Leagues and international play seemed "special" (doesn't anymore at all for me) and there seemed to be far less homogenization of the way hockey is played - now it's all about money on all sides, though those that seem to "hate" the NHL can't seem to see that...I think they're simply jealous that what they believe in doesn't have anywhere close to the same power/money, and so the NHL doesn't have to listen to them...I don't see these power/money issues changing myself, unless the European/Russian players in large numbers give up their "capitalist ways" which I think is pretty unlikely
Bixby Snyder
IBTFAD
Why do you think Canada produce so many top players right now compare to lets say 90s? Is it because parents pay more or isnt it by coincidence because of hockey summit in 99, changing metodology etc.? Why USA is much better now? Isnt it because of that centralized developing system (powered by US hockey)? What do you know about developing and financing youth in Sweden, Finnland or Czech Republic?
You are telling me that I push you to follow my view. I dont, I just aksing you to see complex situation or at least respect it. Instead of it you speak like a fanatic. Yeah, better World cups than any OGs. Not even canadians say that 2016 World Cup with empty squares in Toronto was better than any Olympics. What a nonsense.
Funny is that NHL is listening NA fans, making surveys among them and since my team is in World cup and in international competition I am now the bad boss dictating something. I never entered NHL threads here to suggest what NHL should do. But I dont find any reason why I should not be entitled to suggest or share opinions on what NHL should do with competitions involving my team. You are not only one who does not want to understand to it. If you think that you can bring team Sweden or team Czech Republic and simultanously cutting out their fan base, I dont really see it in that way. So since Czech republic will be there, I somehow feel entitled to comment or be critical about NHL arrangments (when NHL organizes tourney or influences players participation in other tourney). I guess we would find conclusion that WJC in Russia is not just for russian fans and also canadians or czechs can say something about it.
I see you dont respect me so much when you think I dont know NHL leadership was voted. Still I dont know how does it relate to World cup where there are six teams outside NHL structure.
Btw I shared the opinion before that some canadian posters, luckilly minority, need to see the picture "we against them". You take it too much emotionally
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Tweaky
Solid #2
For everyone here saying the Olympics dont matter, or that anything outside the NHl does not matter....honestly answer this question: what is the single most impactful game/series in your hockey memory?
For most Americans that are old enough, that will be 1980. For a number of Russians as well, as I did not specify good memory.
For many Canadians old enough, it will be the 1972 Summit Series...Russians may also have this as well due to the lumberjack impression by Bobby Clarke.
For other (younger?) Canadians, it could be Joe Sakic winning Olympic Gold for Canada the first time in what, 60 years? Or Crosby beating Miller 8 years later.
For Swede's, their mail system says it is Forsberg's stamp goal.
For Czech's, Hasek doing his slinky impression in net in Nagano.
And so on.
And, yes, for many it will be NHL centered moments. Sakic handing the Cup to Bourque. Messier's guarantee, Konstantinov getting wheeled around the ice with the Cup on his lap, etc.
But really, honestly ask yourself what you consider to be the best moments in hockey history. How many of them are about international play?
Heck, of the the 4 hockey moments in SI's list of 100 Greatest moments in sports, two are Olympic (including #1), and two are Gretzky.
Why take away the opportunity for players to be a part of making those kinds of memories?
The ideal solution in my mind is shift hockey to the Summer Games...not hard to make ice anywhere now...they can do it for outdoor games in relatively warm weather....and I play and run tournaments in frakking Thailand for crying out loud. If we can have ice year round here, they can do it for a summer games. And that might be better for growing the sport worldwide as well...summer games are much more watched, and something totally different might be just the thing that garners interest. Move a random indoor sport from the summer games to winter to even it out. Badminton and/or Volleyball would work.
For most Americans that are old enough, that will be 1980. For a number of Russians as well, as I did not specify good memory.
For many Canadians old enough, it will be the 1972 Summit Series...Russians may also have this as well due to the lumberjack impression by Bobby Clarke.
For other (younger?) Canadians, it could be Joe Sakic winning Olympic Gold for Canada the first time in what, 60 years? Or Crosby beating Miller 8 years later.
For Swede's, their mail system says it is Forsberg's stamp goal.
For Czech's, Hasek doing his slinky impression in net in Nagano.
And so on.
And, yes, for many it will be NHL centered moments. Sakic handing the Cup to Bourque. Messier's guarantee, Konstantinov getting wheeled around the ice with the Cup on his lap, etc.
But really, honestly ask yourself what you consider to be the best moments in hockey history. How many of them are about international play?
Heck, of the the 4 hockey moments in SI's list of 100 Greatest moments in sports, two are Olympic (including #1), and two are Gretzky.
Why take away the opportunity for players to be a part of making those kinds of memories?
The ideal solution in my mind is shift hockey to the Summer Games...not hard to make ice anywhere now...they can do it for outdoor games in relatively warm weather....and I play and run tournaments in frakking Thailand for crying out loud. If we can have ice year round here, they can do it for a summer games. And that might be better for growing the sport worldwide as well...summer games are much more watched, and something totally different might be just the thing that garners interest. Move a random indoor sport from the summer games to winter to even it out. Badminton and/or Volleyball would work.
