How do you currently rank nations in hockey development ?

[NoMessi]

Your bias is showing in ridiculous ways it's hilarious.


The Finnish group is much younger but with much, much more potential. Especially at forward.


You're severely underrating Finland while overrating a lot of Swedish players. And your argument is based almost solely on points(And Norris voting which is a joke to begin with).


Sweden is maybe slightly better head to head right now, but give Barkov, Laine, Rantanen, Puljujarvi, Ristolainen, Juolevi, etc. a couple more years to further develop and they will most certainly overtake Sweden...


Also, I am not finnish nor do I have any ties to Finland at all. Please dont say things like "you Finns" as if trying to imply I have a bias towards them.

So everyone is wrong except you since if we compare the drafts since 2008:

- Sweden has more than double the amount of drafted players in every draft except the last two (in which they still had 15-20 more players drafted). Scouts must be clearly wrong.

- Sweden had 8 over 40 point scorers this year, Finland had 5. But then points don't mean anything, apparently. Barkov is a really good two-way player, but so is Silferberg and Forsberg, both of whom had selke votes last year, and will receive even more this year. Those voters must be wrong.

- Sweden had 5 u26 players getting norris votes last year (including 4 in the top 10), Finland didn't even receive 1 SINGLE VOTE. Voters must be wrong again.

- Sweden has 1 u26 starters in the league, Finland has 0. And that is our position of weakness.

i no way whatsoever are Finland EVEN CLOSE to Sweden at this stage.

How can it be a pissing contest when he is the only one on the whole planet defending this, and just says "everyone else is wrong" without bringing up ANY good indications as to why that is. Its like saying "the world is flat" and when someone questioning it he answers "its because I say it is"

 

[kabidjan18]

I think Tier system works best here.

1. Canadav - Largest percentile of children in hockey, rinks, leagues, etc... It's just a national identity.
2. USA, Sweden - Top tier programs.
3. Finland, Russia - Second top tier programs
4. Czechs/Slovakia - Have always had good hockey programs
5. Switzerland - It's coming along.
6. Norway, Germany - Still in it's infancy.

Then everything else.

Interesting to have Slovakia on a tier with the Czech Republic and Norway instead of Latvia or Denmark.

I'm going to take a page out of Tade's book but do 92-99 born athletes (translation, in prime for Beijing 2022), 12 forwards and 8 defensemen and to give my reasoning behind not considering Norway above or on Latvia and Denmark's level. If you seeing your country think you can do better or I missed someone just holla and go right on ahead.

Latvia
Forwards: Zemgus Girgensons, Teodors Blugers, Martins Dzierkals, Rihards Bukarts, Nikita Jevapalovs, Edgars Kulda, Rodrigo Abols, Nikolajs Jelisjevs, Frenks Razgals, Roberts Lipsbergs, Rudolfs Balcers, Renars Krastenbergs

Defensemen: Karlis Cukste, Kristian Rubins, Gvido Jansons, Uvis Janis Balinskis, Kristofers Bindulis, Janis Jaks, Kristaps Zile, Maksims Ponomarenko

Denmark
Forwards: Nikolaj Ehlers, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Nicklas Jensen, Patrick Russell, Nicolai Meyer, Mathias Bau Hansen, Mikkel Aagaard, Mathias From, Joachim Blichfeld, Nikolaj Krag Christensen, Jonas Rondbjerg

Defensemen: Emil Kristensen, Mathias Lassen, Oliver Gatz Nielsen, Anders Krogsgaard, Morten Jensen, Mads Larsen, Nicolai Weichel, Oliver Joakim Larsen

Norway
Forwards: Thomas Valkvae Olsen, Michael Haga, Sondre Olden, Jorgen Karterud, Mathias Trettenes, Alexander Reichenberg, Andreas Heier, Markus Soberg, Ludvig Hoff, Endre Medby, Eirik Salsten, Sebastian Johansen

Defensemen: Erlend Lesund, Mattias Norstebo, Adrian Saxrud Danielsen, Johannes Johanneson, Andreas Roykas Marthinsen, Christian Kasastul, Christian Bull, Magnus Eikrim Haugen

The Norwegian U20 group from the last 2 years is pretty awful so the Norwegian group is probably 2-3 years older on average but you probably get the gist. I don't think the future for these three countries is equal in any way. Denmark and Latvia have a few NHL/KHL tier athletes each, Norway has two guys near their mid-20s trying to stay in the SHL. I'll throw in a few bonus rounds for fun.

France
Forwards: Tim Bozon, Alexandre Texier, Anthony Rech, Jordann Perret, Maurin Bouvet, Nicolas Ritz, Floran Douay, Gabin Ville, Bastien Maia, Eliot Berthon, Hugo Sarlin, Rudy Matima

Defensemen: Enzo Guebey, Florian Chajiavili, Hugo Gallet, Pierre Crinon, Raphael Faure, Aziz Baazzi, Thomas Thiry, Jeremie Penz

Austria
Forwards: Lukas Haudum, Konstantin Komarek, Mario Huber, Dominic Zwerger, Alexander Rauchenwald, Patrick Obrist, Christof Kromp, Florian Baltram, Johannes Bischofberger, Ali Wukovits, Henrik Neubauer, Dario Winkler

Defensemen: Layne Viveiros, Bernd Wolf, Nico Brunner, Steven Strong, Erik Kirchschlager, Christoph Duller, Gerd Kragl, Kele Steffler

I earlier put France above Norway and in retrospect that probably wasn't right. However, I think we're ahead, even if I'm a homer.

 

[DaJackal]

1. Canada
2. USA
3. Sweden
4. Russia
5. Finland

The top 3 is not even arguable IMO.

Concerning the original question, this top 5 is correct. Russia could be #3 if all their stars actually went to NHL instead of staying in KHL.

If we modify the question to reply straight to the topic (and ditch the NHL impact stuff), Sweden and Russia change places.

 

[Snowsii]

So everyone is wrong except you since if we compare the drafts since 2008:

He's not right, but neither are you..

- Sweden has more than double the amount of drafted players in every draft except the last two (in which they still had 15-20 more players drafted). Scouts must be clearly wrong.

when comparing drafts from 2010 -> top 10 pics are even(7-7) or 8-11 (fin-swe) if we look from 2008.

- Sweden had 8 over 40 point scorers this year, Finland had 5. But then points don't mean anything, apparently. Barkov is a really good two-way player, but so is Silferberg and Forsberg, both of whom had selke votes last year, and will receive even more this year. Those voters must be wrong.

You're really saying that those two are equal as defensive playing with Barkov?

Yeah Sweden had 8 u26 players with 40 points.. and Finland had 6.

- Sweden had 5 u26 players getting norris votes last year (including 4 in the top 10), Finland didn't even receive 1 SINGLE VOTE. Voters must be wrong again.

Finnish prospects production has been abysmal, until recents drafts.. That's why.. When we start looking Finnish dmen, who's drafted recently, things arent looking so bad anymore..(Not Sweden class, but better anyway)

- Sweden has 1 u26 starters in the league, Finland has 0. And that is our position of weakness.

I would not brag with that starter Of course, if you can name better prospects than; Saros, Husso, Luukkonen.

i no way whatsoever are Finland EVEN CLOSE to Sweden at this stage.

Finland is close to Sweden, doesnt matter how you try to spin things..

 

[smitty10]

1. Canada
2. USA
3.Sweden
4. Russia
5. Finland
6. Czech Republic
7. Slovakia
8. Switzerland
9. Germany
10. Denmark

 

[mosare]

1. Canada
2. USA
3.Sweden
4. Russia
5. Finland
6. Czech Republic
7. Slovakia
8. Switzerland
9. Germany
10. Denmark

this! but switzerland is clearly over slovakia currently.

 

[BusQuets]

1.Canada
2.Finland/USA
3.USA/Finland
4.Sweden
5.Russia
6.Czech
7.Swiss
8.Germany
9.Denkmark
10.Slovakia


Russia falls a bit due to their lack of high-end defenseman prospects.

 

[Jakk123]

1.Canada
2.Finland/USA
3.USA/Finland
4.Sweden
5.Russia
6.Czech
7.Swiss
8.Germany
9.Denkmark
10.Slovakia


Russia falls a bit due to their lack of high-end defenseman prospects.

Maybe you shouldn't rank youth development according to current senior WC results?

 

[BusQuets]

Maybe you shouldn't rank youth development according to current senior WC results?

I didn't.. The reason why Slovakia is behind Germany and Denmark is because they both have produced star level player (Draisaitl/Ehlers).

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Finland should be top 3 looking at the recent drafts.

 

[Jakk123]

I didn't.. The reason why Slovakia is behind Germany and Denmark is because they both have produced star level player (Draisaitl/Ehlers).

Okay, so one star level player means they produce more and better young players?

 

[BusQuets]

Okay, so one star level player means they produce more and better young players?

It's not like they don't have anyone else but yes i valued quality more than quantity.

 

[Jakk123]

It's not like they don't have anyone else but yes i valued quality more than quantity.

So I guess in 2005 Slovenia was above let's say Slovakia, Germany and Switzerland on your list?

 

[BruinLVGA]

I didn't.. The reason why Slovakia is behind Germany and Denmark is because they both have produced star level player (Draisaitl/Ehlers).

Ehlers is Danish (born in Aalborg), but the Danes didn't "produce" him. The Swiss did. All his non North American junior hockey was done in Bienne, Switzerland. He then moved to Halifax where he played two seasons for the Mooseheads.

 

[NoMessi]

He's not right, but neither are you..

1.when comparing drafts from 2010 -> top 10 pics are even(7-7) or 8-11 (fin-swe) if we look from 2008.

2.You're really saying that those two are equal as defensive playing with Barkov?

3Yeah Sweden had 8 u26 players with 40 points.. and Finland had 6.

4Finnish prospects production has been abysmal, until recents drafts.. That's why.. When we start looking Finnish dmen, who's drafted recently, things arent looking so bad anymore..(Not Sweden class, but better anyway)

5I would not brag with that starter Of course, if you can name better prospects than; Saros, Husso, Luukkonen.

6Finland is close to Sweden, doesnt matter how you try to spin things..

1. Why compare since 2010 since the discussion started from 2008? That is spinning if anything.

2. one was 4 spots lower in the Selke race last year. And we don't discuss 1vs1 player, we are talking about Finland u26-Sweden u26. He especially questioned the depth, which is strange since we have more top players u26.

3. Yeah, and what is more 8 or 6? He once again questioned our depth.

4. Yes, and that the whole friggin point, we are comparing since 2008 and then its not even close. From 2015 and forward it might be close since, but thats not the point at all.

5. No, but its 1 starter. The other is just that, PROSPECTS. Once again, we compare since 2008 and no Finnish player have yet to get that starting role.

6. Finland is not close to Sweden at all since 2008 as I showed several times. If you want to compare since 2015 it might be another conversation. And even if you did, its too small sample size imo. Then atleast start the debate around 2013 so we don't have to tell you about the 5 players in the top 17 in the norris race. That would be a lot closer.

 

[Snowsii]

1. Why compare since 2010 since the discussion started from 2008? That is spinning if anything.

2. one was 4 spots lower in the Selke race last year. And we don't discuss 1vs1 player, we are talking about Finland u26-Sweden u26. He especially questioned the depth, which is strange since we have more top players u26.

3. Yeah, and what is more 8 or 6? He once again questioned our depth.

4. Yes, and that the whole friggin point, we are comparing since 2008 and then its not even close. From 2015 and forward it might be close since, but thats not the point at all.

5. No, but its 1 starter. The other is just that, PROSPECTS. Once again, we compare since 2008 and no Finnish player have yet to get that starting role.

6. Finland is not close to Sweden at all since 2008 as I showed several times. If you want to compare since 2015 it might be another conversation. And even if you did, its too small sample size imo. Then atleast start the debate around 2013 so we don't have toy tell you about the 5 players in the top 17 in the norris race. That would be a lot closer.

i'm talking about 2010 draft, coz most players from 2009 draft arent u26 anymore..

 

[NoMessi]

i'm talking about 2010 draft, coz most players from 2009 draft arent u26 anymore..

And you get in to our debate saying we are wrong and use different years, without saying you actually do. That is wrong on so many levels.

And btw, you are wrong once again. Most of the players are u26 (and under 26, which is what we are discussing) from the 2009 draft. They are mostly born 1991 which is u26 this season. I get that its hard to keep track of those things, but if you can't - then you might not go in to a debate saying we are wrong.

And to use under 26 (not u26, which got mixed in translation), which we began the discussion by doing, you could include players like Erik Karlsson for another 16 days.

 

[Snowsii]

And you get in to our debate saying we are wrong and use different years, without saying you actually do. That is wrong on so many levels.

Maybe you should read again, what i wrote in first place.. I took 2010 as a starting points coz, Finnish player deveploment sucked for some years before that.. And still counted top ten pics from 2008 also.

And btw, you are wrong once again. Most of the players are u26 (and under 26, which is what we are discussing) from the 2009 draft. They are mostly born 1991 which is u26 this season. I get that its hard to keep track of those things, but if you can't - then you might not go in to a debate saying we are wrong.

My bad.. Just checked swedish players and Hedman isnt u26 anymore.. And keep saying 5 = 6

And to use under 26 (not u26, which got mixed in translation), which we began the discussion by doing, you could include players like Erik Karlsson for another 16 days.

Under 26 still means younger than 26, if you want include 26 years olds.. Then use 26 and younger.

1. Why compare since 2010 since the discussion started from 2008? That is spinning if anything.

i'm talking about 2010 draft, coz players from 2008 draft arent u26 anymore..

2. one was 4 spots lower in the Selke race last year. And we don't discuss 1vs1 player, we are talking about Finland u26-Sweden u26. He especially questioned the depth, which is strange since we have more top players u26.

He mentioned like; he thinks Forsbergs and Silferbergs two way game is as good as Barkovs.

3. Yeah, and what is more 8 or 6? He once again questioned our depth.

6 i still more than 5...

4. Yes, and that the whole friggin point, we are comparing since 2008 and then its not even close. From 2015 and forward it might be close since, but thats not the point at all.

Read chapter one.. 2008 draftees arent u26 anymore.. And it's close in forward position since 2010. (Alltough, i got no shame to admit that Swedens depth is far better than Finlands.)

5. No, but its 1 starter. The other is just that, PROSPECTS. Once again, we compare since 2008 and no Finnish player have yet to get that starting role.

Oh yeah? i wonder why.. Saros competes against Rinne. Korpisalo against Bobrovsky and Husso against Allen

6. Finland is not close to Sweden at all since 2008 as I showed several times. If you want to compare since 2015 it might be another conversation. And even if you did, its too small sample size imo. Then atleast start the debate around 2013 so we don't have toy tell you about the 5 players in the top 17 in the norris race. That would be a lot closer.

Rolf.. First of all, maybe you should check your facts first.. You keep babling about u26 and then keep talking about 2008 draftees.. Which is quite odd..

and please name those 5 U26 players then.. and 2010 will do just nicely..

 

[NoMessi]

Maybe you should read again, what i wrote in first place.. I took 2010 as a starting points coz, Finnish player deveploment sucked for some years before that.. And still counted top ten pics from 2008 also.


My bad.. Just checked swedish players and Hedman isnt u26 anymore.. And keep saying 5 = 6
Under 26 still means younger than 26, if you want include 26 years olds.. Then use 26 and younger.


i'm talking about 2010 draft, coz players from 2008 draft arent u26 anymore..
He mentioned like; he thinks Forsbergs and Silferbergs two way game is as good as Barkovs.


6 i still more than 5...

Read chapter one.. 2008 draftees arent u26 anymore.. And it's close in forward position since 2010. (Alltough, i got no shame to admit that Swedens depth is far better than Finlands.)

Oh yeah? i wonder why.. Saros competes against Rinne. Korpisalo against Bobrovsky and Husso against Allen

Rolf.. First of all, maybe you should check your facts first.. You keep babling about u26 and then keep talking about 2008 draftees.. Which is quite odd..

and please name those 5 U26 players then.. and 2010 will do just nicely..

Unless they actually reach potential they still suck imo. Päärjärvi was talent, but look how that turned out. Määttä looked promising in his rookie year, look at him now.

Yeah, 5 or 6 doesn't really since the point still sticks, we have 33% more 40 point players.

AND TO THE BOLDED PART. I WIN, ITS OVER, GO TO BED - SINCE THAT IS ALL WE F-ING DEBATING HERE. I know that Barkov, Laine etc are good prospects, thats not the point. You've got a couple of top end talent, I'm happy for you - but you can't say that Finland is clearly number two uncontested on a site with people that actually knows something about hockey. Lets make this case in 3, 5 or 10 years and the answer might be different. But as of NOW, its Not Even Close. We can change "best top 3 players drafted 2013 and later" and you will win over us (not over Canada though), But yet again - thats not what we are discussing.

Yeah, but Saros, Korpisalo and Husso has proven Jack *****. So once again its premature, I talk about what players have achieved and not about ceilings since that is too subjective. Based on numbers, votes and data Sweden are at the moment better. Once again, this might change. (Depthwise it will presumably take a looot of years for skaters though)

Ok. John Klingberg and OEL is still u26, and Under 26 - which once again you should have known since we talked about the 2008 draft as a starting point, but it might be hard to read more than one post at the time - its also Hedman and Karlsson, both who are still 26 years old.

 

[Snowsii]

Unless they actually reach potential they still suck imo. Päärjärvi was talent, but look how that turned out. Määttä looked promising in his rookie year, look at him now.

You know that this thread was about deveploment

Yeah, 5 or 6 doesn't really since the point still sticks, we have 33% more 40 point players.

33% more from 6 is 9.. Not 8
EDIT: dont do math, while tired You're right.

AND TO THE BOLDED PART. I WIN, ITS OVER, GO TO BED - SINCE THAT IS ALL WE F-ING DEBATING HERE. I know that Barkov, Laine etc are good prospects, thats not the point. You've got a couple of top end talent, I'm happy for you - but you can't say that Finland is clearly number two uncontested on a site with people that actually knows something about hockey. Lets make this case in 3, 5 or 10 years and the answer might be different. But as of NOW, its Not Even Close. We can change "best top 3 players drafted 2013 and later" and you will win over us (not over Canada though), But yet again - thats not what we are discussing.

Once again.. Finland is close, when we look how we're deveplomenting players right now.

Forwards:

- Laine
- Pulju
- Kapanen
- Aho
- Rantanen
- Tolvanen
- Vesalainen
- Hinz
- Borgström
- Saarela

Surely all of them doesnt become "superstar" players in NHL (i think maybe 3-4 become 1st line players) but they have chance to do it.

Add those prospects to: Barkov, Granlund(s), Donskoi, Lehkonen, Teräväinen, Armia, Haula and Salomäki and we got a nice core, which surely can complete with Swedens one.

Defenders:

- Vaakanainen
- Heiskanen
- Juolevi
- Niemeläinen
- Saarijärvi
- Nutivaara
- Honka

Added with: Ristolainen, Määttä, Vatanen, Pokka, Lindell, Lindbohm and Jokipakka

Not Sweden class yet, but not several tiers below, if everyone pans out.

Yeah, but Saros, Korpisalo and Husso has proven Jack *****. So once again its premature, I talk about what players have achieved and not about ceilings since that is too subjective. Based on numbers, votes and data Sweden are at the moment better. Once again, this might change. (Depthwise it will presumably take a looot of years for skaters though)

Saros hasnt proven anything? ok..

Ok. John Klingberg and OEL is still u26, and Under 26 - which once again you should have known since we talked about the 2008 draft as a starting point, but it might be hard to read more than one post at the time - its also Hedman and Karlsson, both who are still 26 years old.

 

[PittsburghHustlers]

Unless they actually reach potential they still suck imo. Päärjärvi was talent, but look how that turned out. Määttä looked promising in his rookie year, look at him now.

Yeah, 5 or 6 doesn't really since the point still sticks, we have 33% more 40 point players.

AND TO THE BOLDED PART. I WIN, ITS OVER, GO TO BED - SINCE THAT IS ALL WE F-ING DEBATING HERE. I know that Barkov, Laine etc are good prospects, thats not the point. You've got a couple of top end talent, I'm happy for you - but you can't say that Finland is clearly number two uncontested on a site with people that actually knows something about hockey. Lets make this case in 3, 5 or 10 years and the answer might be different. But as of NOW, its Not Even Close. We can change "best top 3 players drafted 2013 and later" and you will win over us (not over Canada though), But yet again - thats not what we are discussing.

Yeah, but Saros, Korpisalo and Husso has proven Jack *****. So once again its premature, I talk about what players have achieved and not about ceilings since that is too subjective. Based on numbers, votes and data Sweden are at the moment better. Once again, this might change. (Depthwise it will presumably take a looot of years for skaters though)

Ok. John Klingberg and OEL is still u26, and Under 26 - which once again you should have known since we talked about the 2008 draft as a starting point, but it might be hard to read more than one post at the time - its also Hedman and Karlsson, both who are still 26 years old.

Just let it go, everybody knows that Sweden is ahead of Finland, AINEC

 

[AstrophysicalJet]

Ehlers is Danish (born in Aalborg), but the Danes didn't "produce" him. The Swiss did. All his non North American junior hockey was done in Bienne, Switzerland. He then moved to Halifax where he played two seasons for the Mooseheads.

Im sure his dad being a coach and player helped.
plus he also played in Germany and Denmark before SUI.

 

[21]

I'm impressed by Finland, a huge talent like Laine is worth like 15-20 "normal"/average talents I would say. Sweden obviously produces more talent but with Finland having the top talent lately comparisons are not that easy.

It's not every day you see talents like Laine from the Nordic countries, this is a guy up there on Forsberg, Sundin, Loob, Koivu, Selänne och Kurri level of talent, rare.

 

[NoMessi]

I'm impressed by Finland, a huge talent like Laine is worth like 15-20 "normal"/average talents I would say. Sweden obviously produces more talent but with Finland having the top talent lately comparisons are not that easy.

It's not every day you see talents like Laine from the Nordic countries, this is a guy up there on Forsberg, Sundin, Loob, Koivu, Selänne och Kurri level of talent, rare.

Lol, just lol. I don't know what criteria you use. But I say Erik Karlsson 2008 (as for career after draft) and Viktor Hedman 2009 and Rasmus Dahlin 2018 (pre draft hype). Or for forwards Niklas Bäckström 2006 (as for career after draft, had a little less hype), it would be wonderful if he could be as good as him.

Barkov is ahead of Laine atm Imo, Laines ceiling is probably higher which is something we will see in a couple of years.

You guys might be too young to remember, but there were actually threads around here on HFboards that said Prucha was a better prospect than Crosby. Believe it or not. Ofc I don't believe this is the situation here, but that shows how little people know about prospects.

 

[21]

Lol, just lol. I don't know what criteria you use. But I say Erik Karlsson 2008 (as for career after draft) and Viktor Hedman 2009 and Rasmus Dahlin 2018 (pre draft hype). Or for forwards Niklas Bäckström 2006 (as for career after draft, had a little less hype), it would be wonderful if he could be as good as him.

Barkov is ahead of Laine atm Imo, Laines ceiling is probably higher which is something we will see in a couple of years.

You guys might be too young to remember, but there were actually threads around here on HFboards that said Prucha was a better prospect than Crosby. Believe it or not. Ofc I don't believe this is the situation here, but that shows how little people know about prospects.

Sorry, you are right, now I was referring to recent drafts.

I don't agree with you with Barkov being ahead of Laine but he for sure is a great and promising player.

Laine is a generational talent upp there among the best we have seen, talents like him are very, very rare. He will be extremely interesting following.