How do you currently rank nations in hockey development ?

[kabidjan18]

Tiers of 8s
T1:
Canada
USA
Sweden
Russia
Finland
Czech Republic
Switzerland
Slovakia
T2:
Germany
Denmark
Latvia

Austria
France
Belarus
Norway
Kazakhstan
T3:
Slovenia
Italy
Hungary
Poland
South Korea
Ukraine
Great Britain
Japan

There are a few of what I call the mid-major countries that have really been dipping as far as prospect success but you'd never know unless you spent time following those countries specifically.

 

[Namejs]

Tiers of 8s
T1:
Canada
USA
Sweden
Russia
Finland
Czech Republic
Switzerland
Slovakia
T2:
Germany
Denmark
Latvia

Austria
France
Belarus
Norway
Kazakhstan
T3:
Slovenia
Italy
Hungary
Poland
South Korea
Ukraine
Great Britain
Japan

There are a few of what I call the mid-major countries that have really been dipping as far as prospect success but you'd never know unless you spent time following those countries specifically.

I would agree with Slovakia being placed there 5 years ago, but the quality of their domestic league and the number of young NHL tier prospects has really dropped for them.

There's a bunch of players being signed directly from the semi-pro Latvian Virsliga to Extraliga clubs. That would've been unheard of a decade ago. It's really dropping in quality and nowhere near the level of DEL ot NLA.

 

[tade]

Really? Some people are trying to say that Switzerland or even Denmark are on par with Czech Republic in hockey development, or trending better? Yes, Switzerland is closing the gap, but Czech Republic is still clearly above them.

Czech Republic (from 2017 draft eligible players to 23 years old players)

F: David Pastrnak, Tomas Hertl, Radek Faksa, Pavel Zacha, Jakub Vrana, Martin Necas, Ondrej Kase, Dominik Simon, Michael Spacek, Filip Chlapik, Dominik Kubalik, Martin Frk, David Kampf, Matej Stransky, Dominik Lakatos, David Kase, Adam Musil, Filip Chytil, Ostap Safin

D: Jan Kostalek, Jakub Zboril, Filip Hronek, Dominik Masin, Libor Hajek, Libor Sulak, Jan Stencel, Jakub Galvas, Vojtech Budik, David Sklenicka

G: Marek Langhamer, Matej Machovsky, Marek Mazanec, Vitek Vanecek, Dominik Hrachovina, Daniel Vladar, Karel Vejmelka

Switzerland (from 2017 draft eligible players to 23 years old players)

F: Nico Hischier, Kevin Fiala, Denis Malgin, Timo Meier, Pius Suter, Vincent Praplan, Damien Riat, Noah Rod, Calvin Thürkauf, Fabrice Herzog, Christoph Bertschy, Yannick Zehnder, Sven Leuenberger, Julian Schmutz, Dario Meyer, Luca Fazzini, Sandro Zangger, Nicolas Müller, Justin Sigrist

D: Jonas Siegenthaler, Mirco Müller, Dean Kukan, Yannick Rathgeb, Edson Harlacher, Livio Stadler, Lukas Frick, Roger Karrer, Tobias Geisser, Simon Le Coultre

G: Joren van Pottelberghe, Gauthier Descloux, Luca Boltshauser, Gilles Senn, Niklas Schlegel, Matteo Ritz

Denmark (from 2017 draft eligible players to 23 years old players)

F: Nikolaj Ehlers, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Mathias From, Joachim Blichfeld, Alexander True, Nikolaj Krag Christensen, Mathias Bau Hansen, Mikkel Aagaard, Rasmus T. Andersson, Lucas Andersen, Nicolai Meyer, Jonas Rondbjerg, David Madsen, Markus Jensen, Matthias Asperup, Søren Nielsen, Christian Wejse, Mikkel Hojbjerg, Tobias Ladehoff

D: Oliver Gatz Nielsen, Anders Krogsgaard, Matias Lassen, Mads Larsen, Christian Mieritz, Nicolai Waichel, Morten Jensen, Malte Setkov, Daniel Andersen

G: Thomas Lillie, George Sorensen, Lasse M. Petersen, Mathias Seldrup, Nicolaj Henriksen, Sebastian Feuk, Kasper L. Krog, Albert Adamsen

I don't see it, Czech Republic is clearly still one level above Switzerland and 2 levels above Denmark in terms of youth development. Some of you probably only see N.Hischier and that's all...

 

[BigWilly]

Yea I think it's hard to argue that Canada has been bringing more high level talent into the league than the USA over the last 2 drafts.

Matthews
Eichel
Werenski
Hanifin
McAvoy
Tkachuk
Keller

I would say that as of today, only McDavid and Marner could break into that top 7.

After McDavid and Marner, there is a bit of a drop off since 2015. Even going back to 2014, which at the time looked to be a strong top end draft for Canadians, looks much weaker today. I don't think Ekblad will be as good as advertised, same with Reinhart and Bennett. Strome still has a ways to go as well. Guys like Konecny and Beauvillier are very promising but not in the tier of the top guys from the USA group.

I would even look to the U23 NA team that had more Americans than Canadians.

Uh oh... This sucks
This poster speaks the truth.

edit: Actually, it's pretty damn close. I think I'd give Canada the edge since they bring more depth.

Top 3 Canadian rookies last 2 years:
Marner: 77 - 19 - 42 - 61
Point: 68 - 18 - 22 - 40
Brown: 82 - 20 - 16 - 36

Domi: 81 - 18 - 34 - 52
McDavid: 45 - 16 - 32 - 48
Duclair: 81 - 20 - 24 - 44

Total GP: 434, P: 281
0.647 PPG


Top 3 American rookies last 2 years:
Matthews: 82 - 40 - 29 - 69
Tkachuck: 76 - 13 - 35 - 48
Werenski: 78 - 11 - 36 - 47

Eichel: 81 - 24 - 32 -56
Gostisbehere: 64 - 17 - 29 - 46
Larkin: 80 - 23 - 22 - 45

Total GP: 461, P: 311
0.675 PPG

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Uh oh... This sucks
This poster speaks the truth.

edit: Actually, it's pretty damn close. I think I'd give Canada the edge since they bring more depth.

Top 3 Canadian rookies last 2 years:
Marner: 77 - 19 - 42 - 61
Point: 68 - 18 - 22 - 40
Brown: 82 - 20 - 16 - 36

Domi: 81 - 18 - 34 - 52
McDavid: 45 - 16 - 32 - 48
Duclair: 81 - 20 - 24 - 44

Total GP: 434, P: 281
0.647 PPG


Top 3 American rookies last 2 years:
Matthews: 82 - 40 - 29 - 69
Tkachuck: 76 - 13 - 35 - 48
Werenski: 78 - 11 - 36 - 47

Eichel: 81 - 24 - 32 -56
Gostisbehere: 64 - 17 - 29 - 46
Larkin: 80 - 23 - 22 - 45

Total GP: 461, P: 311
0.675 PPG

Well first off, two of those Americans are defenseman. Secondly, 4 of those Americans were drafted in 2015/2016 and Larkin was in 2014.

McDavid and Marner are the only two from 2015. Point is from 2014, and Domi and Duclair are from 2013, and Brown from 2012.

So not only was the USA group significantly younger and more productive, they also had 2 defenseman in that group.

 

[kabidjan18]

I would agree with Slovakia being placed there 5 years ago, but the quality of their domestic league and the number of young NHL tier prospects has really dropped for them.

There's a bunch of players being signed directly from the semi-pro Latvian Virsliga to Extraliga clubs. That would've been unheard of a decade ago. It's really dropping in quality and nowhere near the level of DEL ot NLA.

They don't play players from their domestic league so while the weakness of their domestic league is an issue, it's not the silver bullet you're looking for. You could make a fair argument that they're not tier 1 anymore, I don't think you could make the argument yet that they've been passed by denmark or germany. Going in tiers of 7 it'd look something like

T1: Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland, Czech Republic, Switzerland
T2: Slovakia, Germany, Denmark, Latvia, Austria, France, Belarus
T3: Norway, Kazakhstan, Slovenia, Italy, Hungary, Poland South Korea

Hmmm, I actually like that more. I know seeing Norway in T3 will be blood-curdling for some people but I'm definitely not one of them, I believe Norway is well on its way downwards.

 

[BalticWarrior]

They don't play players from their domestic league so while the weakness of their domestic league is an issue, it's not the silver bullet you're looking for. You could make a fair argument that they're not tier 1 anymore, I don't think you could make the argument yet that they've been passed by denmark or germany. Going in tiers of 7 it'd look something like

T1: Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland, Czech Republic, Switzerland
T2: Slovakia, Germany, Denmark, Latvia, Austria, France, Belarus
T3: Norway, Kazakhstan, Slovenia, Italy, Hungary, Poland South Korea

Hmmm, I actually like that more. I know seeing Norway in T3 will be blood-curdling for some people but I'm definitely not one of them, I believe Norway is well on its way downwards.

Didnt Norway U20 fall to division 2? Seems like a fair assesment.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

For me the top 8 in order are:


1. Canada
2. Finland
3. USA
4. Sweden
5. Russia
6. Czech Republic
7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia



A few comments on the list:


1. Finland IMO is putting together a truly impressive group of players over the last ~5 years or so, impressive enough that they take the #2 spot just ahead of the other 3 powerhouses and truthfull they aren't far behind Canada right now for me.


I mean, at 26 or under right now they have all of Laine, Granlund(x2), Rantanen, Barkov, Puljujarvi, Aho, Haula, Kapanen up front. And on Defense ypu have Ristolainen, Vatanen, Juolevi, Maatta, Honka, Lindell.

As well as the likes of Heiskanen, Tolvanen, Valimaki, Vesalainen, Vaakaneinen, Ikonen, Jokiharju, etc. etc. in this years draft as well.


I think they're quickly establishing themselves as the #2 country behind Canada.


2. I think after Canada and Finland, the 3/4/5 spots between Sweden, USA, and Russia are pretty much interchangeable. I put USA at #3 because of the elite talent they've produced over the last few years in Eichel/Matthews. But realistically I think they're all very close.


3. I also think Switzerland and Germany have both surpassed Slovakia in terms of development and are becoming the 7 and 8 teams of the Top 8 in the world. Germany with it's biggest success story in Draisaitl but they're improving in general with its development and it shows in the international play that they've been improving in.

Switzerland this year again obviously did well with Hischier and Roman Josi. but they also have the likes of Niederreiter, Baertschi, Andreghetto, as recent success stories. They also have some good young players just starting to hit the NHL level. Timo Meier and Kevin Fiala in particular are doing extremely well but Denis Malgin, and Mirco Muller as well should be solid NHLers.

 

[Xokkeu]

Ignoring the fact that Larsson, Kylington and Liljegren were all at a point considered elite prospects (and Larsson is moving quickly into the elite defensive D status), you do know that the top prospect for 2018 draft is a Swedish defenseman (or Russian winger if you roll that way)?





Still quite a gap, but I would say that Finland is starting to produce defensemen at a much better pace than Sweden produces forwards of similar quality

Also, I am getting super frustrated by all great/promising Swedish junior goalies that never seem to develop into NHL starter level goalies.

I dunno I mean I guess if we are judging them as prospects and not as actual players. I forgot Hampus Lindholm he's borderline elite to very good. Larsson might not even be the best Swedish D on his team. I like Klefbom more. The other two are meh

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Why is Finland like 5th on everyones list when the last draft and this draft have been full of finnish prospect getting drafted high. Is this some sort of recency bias because of the crappy U20s? Ask this question a year ago and Finland is on top of everyones list

 

[kabidjan18]

Didnt Norway U20 fall to division 2? Seems like a fair assesment.

That's one thing, though definitely not the only thing or even the biggest indicator. Sometimes if a junior team has a rotting avocado as a coach and/or is struck with terrible injuries things can happen. I could go into a lot of detail but in short they've had a lot of busts or even just lack of decent prospects in their 92-99 group.

Why is Finland like 5th on everyones list when the last draft and this draft have been full of finnish prospect getting drafted high. Is this some sort of recency bias because of the crappy U20s? Ask this question a year ago and Finland is on top of everyones list

The complete opposite. When we evaluate this stuff we're doing our best to take into account results going back as far as the 91, 92, 93 kids, 5-6 years back, and also trying to look ahead into the future. We also take into account local league strength, number of NHL players and also number of capable non-NHLers. Going in our pants because Finland just had a few good prospects would be the definition of recency bias.

 

[Xokkeu]

Dahlin, the talent Ottawa recently gave away to Vancouver for Burrows. Guess it will be difficult to critize if Ottawa manage to win the Cup this year though. ;-)

I can't stand the management in Ottawa. Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Lehner, Rundblad, etc, etc... considering they also prefered Redden in front of Chara I suppose it was just a lucky coincident they kept Karlsson? I prefer teams developing Swedish talents comparing using them as trade baits. Rundbland is perhaps out of hope though, looks like his style simply wasn't meant for the NHL, he couldn't adjust. Rundblad is a huge negative surprise for me, never foresaw him having his peak already as a junior in Skellefteå (???), I thought he was still developing and becoming a true star, wrong. Not even ZSC Lions in Switzerland wants to keep him.

Dahlin is looking really great playing vs men (!) even if he is having his head down quite a lot while doing his moves which could be devastating in the NHL, he is still young and learning I guess. Ottawa have Alfredsson in their management/organisation now, for me it is totally increadible how Alfredsson can recommend a Dahlin - Burrows trade? Dahlin is playing for Alfredssons home team in Sweden, Frölunda, making the trade even more confusing? Is Alfredsson aware of something with Dahlin the rest of us don't know about yet? The only logic I can think of is if Ottawa wanted to sacrifize their future for a better chance winning the cup now within 1-3 years. It's still a pretty bad trade though, should have been possible keeping their best future prospect.

Stupid Ottawa, congrats Vancouver and since Vancouver is a fantastic beautiful city, I love it, we will have to congratulate Rasmus too.

Why do you think Vancouver is going to get the 1st overall pick??

 

[Nebster]

You have mistaken Jonathan Dahlén the forward, born 1997, for defencemen Rasmus Dahiln, born 2000.

 

[21]

You have mistaken Jonathan Dahlén the forward, born 1997, for defencemen Rasmus Dahiln, born 2000.

Why do you think Vancouver is going to get the 1st overall pick??

Haha, my god, I need to sleep, sorry. ,-)

 

[Jakk123]

For me the top 8 in order are:


1. Canada
2. Finland
3. USA
4. Sweden
5. Russia
6. Czech Republic
7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia



A few comments on the list:


1. Finland IMO is putting together a truly impressive group of players over the last ~5 years or so, impressive enough that they take the #2 spot just ahead of the other 3 powerhouses and truthfull they aren't far behind Canada right now for me.


I mean, at 26 or under right now they have all of Laine, Granlund(x2), Rantanen, Barkov, Puljujarvi, Aho, Haula, Kapanen up front. And on Defense ypu have Ristolainen, Vatanen, Juolevi, Maatta, Honka, Lindell.

As well as the likes of Heiskanen, Tolvanen, Valimaki, Vesalainen, Vaakaneinen, Ikonen, Jokiharju, etc. etc. in this years draft as well.


I think they're quickly establishing themselves as the #2 country behind Canada.


2. I think after Canada and Finland, the 3/4/5 spots between Sweden, USA, and Russia are pretty much interchangeable. I put USA at #3 because of the elite talent they've produced over the last few years in Eichel/Matthews. But realistically I think they're all very close.


3. I also think Switzerland and Germany have both surpassed Slovakia in terms of development and are becoming the 7 and 8 teams of the Top 8 in the world. Germany with it's biggest success story in Draisaitl but they're improving in general with its development and it shows in the international play that they've been improving in.

Switzerland this year again obviously did well with Hischier and Roman Josi. but they also have the likes of Niederreiter, Baertschi, Andreghetto, as recent success stories. They also have some good young players just starting to hit the NHL level. Timo Meier and Kevin Fiala in particular are doing extremely well but Denis Malgin, and Mirco Muller as well should be solid NHLers.

And what is the reason for Germany surpassing Slovakia? Draisaitl is a gem, but I don't really think he is a result of improvement in their hockey development.
Our senior team has performed miserably in the last couple of years, we have a terrible coaching staff IMO, and this year, the team is simply horrendous.

Last 10 years at WJC, Slovakia vs Germany: 5 games, 2 regular time wins for Slovakia, 2 ot wins for Slovakia, 1 ot win for Germany. Score 20:10 for Slovakia.
Years 2008, 2010, 2012, 2016, 2017: Germany hasn't been in the elite division. Slovakia hasn't relegated once since 1996, although it was close sometimes.

Last 10 years at U18 WC: Slovakia vs Germany: 6 games, 2 regular time wins for Slovakia, 1 ot win for Slovakia, 1 regular time win for Germany, 2 ot wins for Germany. Score 19:18 for Slovakia.
Years 2010, 2016, 2017: Germany hasn't been in the elite division. This year, Germany finished second to last in the I.A division.
2012: Slovakia hasn't been in the elite division.

So I don't really see how did Germany surpass Slovakia. Their senior league is much better, that is a great advantage, but in terms of youth development, I don't know.

As for Switzerland, I agree that at the moment they are above both Slovakia and Germany. However, the Czech Republic is still way ahead of everyone mentioned.

 

[NoMessi]

For me the top 8 in order are:


1. Canada
2. Finland
3. USA
4. Sweden
5. Russia
6. Czech Republic
7. Switzerland
8. Germany
9. Slovakia



A few comments on the list:


1. Finland IMO is putting together a truly impressive group of players over the last ~5 years or so, impressive enough that they take the #2 spot just ahead of the other 3 powerhouses and truthfull they aren't far behind Canada right now for me.


I mean, at 26 or under right now they have all of Laine, Granlund(x2), Rantanen, Barkov, Puljujarvi, Aho, Haula, Kapanen up front. And on Defense ypu have Ristolainen, Vatanen, Juolevi, Maatta, Honka, Lindell.

As well as the likes of Heiskanen, Tolvanen, Valimaki, Vesalainen, Vaakaneinen, Ikonen, Jokiharju, etc. etc. in this years draft as well.


I think they're quickly establishing themselves as the #2 country behind Canada.


2. I think after Canada and Finland, the 3/4/5 spots between Sweden, USA, and Russia are pretty much interchangeable. I put USA at #3 because of the elite talent they've produced over the last few years in Eichel/Matthews. But realistically I think they're all very close.


3. I also think Switzerland and Germany have both surpassed Slovakia in terms of development and are becoming the 7 and 8 teams of the Top 8 in the world. Germany with it's biggest success story in Draisaitl but they're improving in general with its development and it shows in the international play that they've been improving in.

Switzerland this year again obviously did well with Hischier and Roman Josi. but they also have the likes of Niederreiter, Baertschi, Andreghetto, as recent success stories. They also have some good young players just starting to hit the NHL level. Timo Meier and Kevin Fiala in particular are doing extremely well but Denis Malgin, and Mirco Muller as well should be solid NHLers.

That not very good compared to the other top nations.

Sweden under 26: Forsberg, Burakovsky, Johansson, Zibanejad, Arvidsson, Rakell, Landeskog, E. Lindholm, Nylander, Wennberg, Rask, Järnkrok, W. Karlsson, Fast, Lindberg, Kruger

Hedman, E. Karlsson, Ekman-Larsson, Klingberg, Brodin, Klefbom, H. Lindholm, M Ekholm, Claesson

Lehner

USA and Russia should be almost the same, probably more depth for USA

Edit: I might actually say that not even 1 Finnish D would get a spot on that Swedish team.

Edit 2: Its a shame that we always see this overrating of Finnish prospects around here. That makes it even harder to enjoy their recent upswing. Fresh in my memory I was getting a lot of hate in a "Finland has better D than Sweden" thread where I said Hampus Lindholm was a lot better than Määttä. Guess who's laughing now.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

That not very good compared to the other top nations.

Sweden under 26: Forsberg, Burakovsky, Johansson, Zibanejad, Arvidsson, Rakell, Landeskog, E. Lindholm, Nylander, Wennberg, Rask, Järnkrok, W. Karlsson, Fast, Lindberg, Kruger

Hedman, E. Karlsson, Ekman-Larsson, Klingberg, Brodin, Klefbom, H. Lindholm, M Ekholm, Claesson

Lehner

USA and Russia should be almost the same, probably more depth for USA

Edit: I might actually say that not even 1 Finnish D would get a spot on that Swedish team.

Edit 2: Its a shame that we always see this overrating of Finnish prospects around here. That makes it even harder to enjoy their recent upswing. Fresh in my memory I was getting a lot of hate in a "Finland has better D than Sweden" thread where I said Hampus Lindholm was a lot better than Määttä. Guess who's laughing now.

I dont think I could possibly stress how easily I prefer the Finnish group to that Swedish group.


Swedens Defense is better right now, but that's mostly because of Hedman and Karlsson.



You're massively overrating Swedens Forward core. Finland has way more depth and way more high end talent.


You're also underrating Finlands Defense. Ristolainen would quite easily make Team Sweden. Finlands Defense is younger then Swedens right now but it has a lot of potential.


It's funny to read about Finland being overrated coming from a Swede that's for sure.

 

[ChiefWiggum]

Finland and Sweden by far number 1. For tiny countries, they are always competitive. They are the most productive nations.

Russia/Soviet Union was a big producer but has tailed off of late, especially when it comes to defensemen.

Canada is the best simply because it is our national pride. If you have a population of 35 million and a large percentage has interest in hockey, you are bound to produce elite talent by default. It like buying a million tickets in the lottery. You got a pretty good chance of winning.

 

[Xokkeu]

Finland and Sweden by far number 1. For tiny countries, they are always competitive. They are the most productive nations.

Russia/Soviet Union was a big producer but has tailed off of late, especially when it comes to defensemen.

Canada is the best simply because it is our national pride. If you have a population of 35 million and a large percentage has interest in hockey, you are bound to produce elite talent by default. It like buying a million tickets in the lottery. You got a pretty good chance of winning.

If it's a per capita thing then Finland is far and away number 1 with no comparison.

 

[NoMessi]

I dont think I could possibly stress how easily I prefer the Finnish group to that Swedish group.


Swedens Defense is better right now, but that's mostly because of Hedman and Karlsson.



You're massively overrating Swedens Forward core. Finland has way more depth and way more high end talent.


You're also underrating Finlands Defense. Ristolainen would quite easily make Team Sweden. Finlands Defense is younger then Swedens right now but it has a lot of potential.


It's funny to read about Finland being overrated coming from a Swede that's for sure.

last year Sweden had 6 defensemen in top 20 of Norris voting. FINLAND DIDNT EVEN RECEIVE A SINGLE VOTE. (Strålman doesn't count, but the other 5 swedes are 26 or younger.)

Ristolainen would most definitely NOT get a place in the team Sweden, not in u26 either. AINEC. Ristolainen is for sure a great talent, but he has yet to figure out how to play proper defense. You Finns have like 2 defenders that is even above average in the whole league, and that including over26 as well. (Määttä is slow as a snail and meh but Vatanen and Ristolainen are good)

That norris voting alone makes your post look pretty stupid.

You don't like our depth, when in reality its the top tier guys we might be lacking. (Which makes your post even more wrong.) So do you finns though. You've got Barkov and Laine, which is really good but lets compare over 40 point scorers this year.

Sweden: Rakell, Silfverberg, Arvidsson, Rask, Lindholm, Nylander, Johansson, Wennberg (8)

Finland: Granlund, Laine, Barkov, Aho, Teravainen (5)

Or we can compare top 10 draft pics since 2008. Then its 11-7 in favor of Sweden (if my math is correct, its late here in sweden)

There is just no way Finland is ahead of Sweden atm. Not even close. Its like comparing Canada and Russia. This might change in a couple of years, which would be good for international competition and Finland will for certain have a very competitive squad, but don't get ahead of yourself.

If you want to know, since 2008 its only been two years that Sweden has NOT had more than double the amount of drafted players. Its the last two years, and still - there have been like 15-20 more drafted swedes in total those years combined.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

last year Sweden had 6 defensemen in top 20 of Norris voting. FINLAND DIDNT EVEN RECEIVE A SINGLE VOTE. (Strålman doesn't count, but the other 5 swedes are 26 or younger.)

Ristolainen would most definitely NOT get a place in the team Sweden, not in u26 either. AINEC. Ristolainen is for sure a great talent, but he has yet to figure out how to play proper defense. You Finns have like 2 defenders that is even above average in the whole league, and that including over26 as well. (Määttä is slow as a snail and meh but Vatanen and Ristolainen are good)

That norris voting alone makes your post look pretty stupid.

You don't like our depth, when in reality its the top tier guys we might be lacking. (Which makes your post even more wrong.) So do you finns though. You've got Barkov and Laine, which is really good but lets compare over 40 point scorers this year.

Sweden: Rakell, Silfverberg, Arvidsson, Rask, Lindholm, Nylander, Johansson, Wennberg (8)

Finland: Granlund, Laine, Barkov, Aho, Teravainen (5)

Or we can compare top 10 draft pics since 2008. Then its 11-7 in favor of Sweden (if my math is correct, its late here in sweden)

There is just no way Finland is ahead of Sweden atm. Not even close. Its like comparing Canada and Russia. This might change in a couple of years, which would be good for international competition and Finland will for certain have a very competitive squad, but don't get ahead of yourself.

If you want to know, since 2008 its only been two years that Sweden has NOT had more than double the amount of drafted players. Its the last two years, and still - there have been like 15-20 more drafted swedes in total those years combined.

Your bias is showing in ridiculous ways it's hilarious.


The Finnish group is much younger but with much, much more potential. Especially at forward.


You're severely underrating Finland while overrating a lot of Swedish players. And your argument is based almost solely on points(And Norris voting which is a joke to begin with).


Sweden is maybe slightly better head to head right now, but give Barkov, Laine, Rantanen, Puljujarvi, Ristolainen, Juolevi, etc. a couple more years to further develop and they will most certainly overtake Sweden...


Also, I am not finnish nor do I have any ties to Finland at all. Please dont say things like "you Finns" as if trying to imply I have a bias towards them.

 

[Volica]

I think Tier system works best here.

1. Canadav - Largest percentile of children in hockey, rinks, leagues, etc... It's just a national identity.
2. USA, Sweden - Top tier programs.
3. Finland, Russia - Second top tier programs
4. Czechs/Slovakia - Have always had good hockey programs
5. Switzerland - It's coming along.
6. Norway, Germany - Still in it's infancy.

Then everything else.

 

[Sempiternal]

Sweden has been producing amazing dmen...

 

[TheTwelfth]

Your bias is showing in ridiculous ways it's hilarious.


The Finnish group is much younger but with much, much more potential. Especially at forward.


You're severely underrating Finland while overrating a lot of Swedish players. And your argument is based almost solely on points(And Norris voting which is a joke to begin with).


Sweden is maybe slightly better head to head right now, but give Barkov, Laine, Rantanen, Puljujarvi, Ristolainen, Juolevi, etc. a couple more years to further develop and they will most certainly overtake Sweden...


Also, I am not finnish nor do I have any ties to Finland at all. Please dont say things like "you Finns" as if trying to imply I have a bias towards them.

The real standouts among Finnish forwards is Barkov, Laine and Puljujärvi. Sweden has in similar time period have had at least three similarly touted players in Landeskog and Nylander. Now, the Finnish group is much more talented and have developed better, but it isn't like the system isn't producing. If you disagree, please tell me what the difference in quality is between Granlund and Forsberg, or why Teriväinen is pushed down the depth chart by a Swedish center.

Juolevi and Ristolainen are good prospects, but Sweden produces on at least one defender of that quality per draft (since 2009: Hedman, Karlsson, OEL, Brodin, Lindholm, Larsson, Klefbom, Klingberg). Finland would ice Fredrik Claesson and Patrik Nemeth in an Olympic squad next year if they were Finnish, while they are around 20:th in line to make the Swedish team.

The big difference is in the net, although Finland hasn't had a home run there in quite some time now. I really liked what Saros showed in the NHL this year. Will be interesting to see if he can keep succeeding in the NHL as an undersized goalie.

 

[Jablkon]

Your bias is showing in ridiculous ways it's hilarious.


The Finnish group is much younger but with much, much more potential. Especially at forward.


You're severely underrating Finland while overrating a lot of Swedish players. And your argument is based almost solely on points(And Norris voting which is a joke to begin with).


Sweden is maybe slightly better head to head right now, but give Barkov, Laine, Rantanen, Puljujarvi, Ristolainen, Juolevi, etc. a couple more years to further develop and they will most certainly overtake Sweden...


Also, I am not finnish nor do I have any ties to Finland at all. Please dont say things like "you Finns" as if trying to imply I have a bias towards them.

What you mean by overtake? You overhype names which is so typical for hfboards. What is their ceiling? Even if they become 90 points players, which they dont, it does not gurantee you that they will beat or even overtake Sweden