HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 9

[blogofmike]

Who do you prefer between Fleury and Liut? I feel like Fleury in the playoffs is basically (a worse?) Liut on a better team, but I'm interested to hear what you and others think here.

I don't know what to make of Fleury. But Fleury.

He's less helpful as a regular season presence, and his playoffs are also erratic, (this is why they traded for Tomas Vokoun or Rick Wamsley or Richard Brodeur), but he actually has some good runs in there.

Perhaps it helps that he was replaced a few times when he might've really done damage.

Fleury could string together a good series much more frequently than Liut did. Fleury fighting to make a scrambly save in the dying seconds of 2009 Finals is the opposite of Liut moving away from a shot for no reason against the Habs.

 

[rmartin65]

I don't know what to make of Fleury. But Fleury.

I'm sorry, but I don't know what this is?

Fleury could string together a good series much more frequently than Liut did. Fleury fighting to make a scrambly save in the dying seconds of 2009 Finals is the opposite of Liut moving away from a shot for no reason against the Habs.

I think that is true- Fleury's highs were better than I understand Liut's were. But Fleury's lows are atrocious. I mean-

 

[Michael Farkas]

- On a super light workload
- It also wasn't particularily close.
- Too many netminders who weren't good enough to be candidates here have done very well for that franchise since.

Is Tuukka Rask your modern Tiny Thompson? haha

I don't disagree with any of that, it's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. The only thing I will say is that my approach slices through the third bullet point pretty cleanly. You don't have to wonder about chicken or egg (system or player) when you evaluate the talent. Rask was relatively high on my list. Whatever that's worth (I guess 1/20th of a cent, as with most coupons)...

 

[blogofmike]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what this is?

I think that is true- Fleury's highs were better than I understand Liut's were. But Fleury's lows are atrocious. I mean-

I find him difficult to assess. But I choose Fleury.

There are some fun ones in the Fleury reel, and a couple that are kind of pedestrian.

As for Liut, here's him in 1982:

Here's Game 1


Fleury getting beat by Ryan Johansen from 50 feet out is bad, but Liut gives you multiple versions of that in the same game.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The post lockout Bruins certainly attract Vezina candidates. Much like the 1930s Rangers did. Thomas, Rask, Ullmark. Swayman won a Jennings.

I guess you could say Nashville too with Rinne and Saros and Vokoun. Or Rangers with Lundqvist and Shesterkin.

 

[rmartin65]

Fleury getting beat by Ryan Johansen from 50 feet out is bad, but Liut gives you multiple versions of that in the same game.

The difference for me is that I feel like goalies in the 80s- especially the early 80s- gave those kinds of goals up somewhat regularly. Fleury’s peers aren’t making the same gaffes at nearly the same frequency, in my opinion.

Since I’m big on relative-to-peer performance as a way to account for differences between eras, that matters to me.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Fleury occupies a pretty unique place in being eligible to play in multiple best on best tournaments, but never actually playing.

Him and Giacomin (though he was functionally only in his prime for 1972). Vernon will come up too. Besides that, do we count Resch? It's a small list.

Fleury will make the list, but I think he has the lowest peak of the four post lockout players available.

 

[MXD]

The post lockout Bruins certainly attract Vezina candidates. Much like the 1930s Rangers did. Thomas, Rask, Ullmark. Swayman won a Jennings.

I guess you could say Nashville too with Rinne and Saros and Vokoun. Or Rangers with Lundqvist and Shesterkin.

With all due respect, did you get your teams/decades messed up? Because JRR and Andy Aitkenhead didn't get much awards while playing with the Rangers, and Dave Kerr did get one 1AST and another 2AST during that decade...

 

[jigglysquishy]

With all due respect, did you get your teams/decades messed up? Because JRR and Andy Aitkenhead didn't get much awards while playing with the Rangers, and Dave Kerr did get one 1AST and another 2AST during that decade...

Strictly awards, no.

But JRR, Aitkenhead, Kerr, and Chabot all had some of the best performances of their career on the 1926-1940 Rangers. It was a carousal of goalies and I think speaks more to the team as a whole than just the goalie. I do think it's more of a Frank Boucher thing.

It really sticks out when you go year by year. They post strong stats, but get just okay praise compared to Boucher and the Cooks.

 

[MXD]

Strictly awards, no.

But JRR, Aitkenhead, Kerr, and Chabot all had some of the best performances of their career on the 1926-1940 Rangers. It was a carousal of goalies and I think speaks more to the team as a whole than just the goalie. I do think it's more of a Frank Boucher thing.

It really sticks out when you go year by year. They post strong stats, but get just okay praise compared to Boucher and the Cooks.

Fair for Chabot (and he probably be benefitted from the better team) but JRR's best season was probably with the Wings, Aitkenhead never played with another team, and Kerr was super young when he was a Maroon and had possibly not hit his prime. Also never played with a prime Boucher in the first place.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Never thought about it, the Rangers are in six Finals in 13 years and there's, what, 6 goalies involved (Lester Patrick and Joe Miller contributing)...? Only Kerr and JRR have multiple appearances?

 

[DN28]

Let's expand on Connell and have his career compared to Roach and Chabot.

Team results, official and unofficial all-star voting, Hart voting, retroactive Conn Smythe trophies determined by SIHR in 2001 along with a few of media top-X lists or significant praises.

Unfortunately the early 20s Eastern all-star coverage (or any explicit goalie rankings in general) is quite limited compared to West. But Roach was noticed since the beginning.

Official Hart & All-Star Votings are listed here.
All-Star Teams selected by NHL coaches are listed here.

1922
Roach got to play his 1st NHL season in Toronto when Jake Forbes decided to sit out entire season due to salary disputes. St. Patricks finished 2nd and upset the Senators in a two-game total goals series. St. Patricks then won the cup after defeating Vancouver in a best of five series 3-2.

Roach did receive a lot of attention during and after ´22. Few quotes have already been posted in the thread, I’ll add one or two more (Victoria Daily Times, Nov 30, 1922):

„The other two stars who will be under the fan's eyes tomorrow will be the famous Babe Day and John Ross Roach. Roach is only a youngster but he is the best goalie the East has ever produced. His judgement is absolutely uncanny."​

The Vancouver Sun, Mar 22, 1922:

„Toronto hockey fans were given an exhibition of goal-tending by Hughie Lehman the like of which has never been seen in the Queen City. Eastern sport writers have been singing the praises of John Ross Roach, the St. Patrick's goaler, but after seeing "Old Eagle Eye" in action they are convinced that the west has the greatest netminder in the business.“​

- PCHA all-star:
1. Hugh Lehman
2. Hap Holmes

- WCHL all-star:
1. Red Dutton
2. Bill Laird

1923
Toronto finished 3rd, missed the playoffs.

- PCHA all-star:
1. Hugh Lehman
2. Hap Holmes

- also PCHA fan voted all-star after 20-30 games in the season (Vancouver Daily World, Feb. 10, 1923):
1. Hugh Lehman
2. Hap Holmes
3. Hec Fowler

- WCHL all-star:
1. Hal Winkler
2. Bill Laird

- also WCHL fan voted all-star at the ca. half-season in late January:
1. Bill Laird
2. Hal Winkler
3. Bill Binney

- All Western team selected by a WCHL referee Skinner Poulin:
1. Hugh Lehman

1924
Toronto finished 3rd, missed the playoffs.

- goalies according to Hart voting:
1. John Ross Roach (3rd in Hart)
2. Jake Forbes (7th in Hart)

- The Ottawa Journal, Mar 6, 1924. All-Star team selected by a „neutral picker“:
1. John Ross Roach

- PCHA all-star:
1. Hugh Lehman

- WCHL all-star:
1. Red McCusker

- more on Lehman’s arguably last great season in The Morning Leader, October 31, 1924:

“Those who suggest that Lehman is about through should have seen him in action against Canadiens last year in the world‘s series. Early in the first game a flying puck broke the Lehman nose. He was of briefly for repairs, came on again and played spectacularly. Next game he played equally well. He was hailed as the most wonderful goalkeeping star in Canada and his work was regarded as faultless.”​

1925
St. Patricks finished 2nd, lost the subsequent 2-game playoff series with the Canadiens.
Connell plays his 1st NHL season in Ottawa. Senators finishes 4th and missed the playoffs.

NHL all-star:
- still no official AST

- Calgary Daily Herald on Jan 12, 1925 posted the NHL all-star teams according to Hamilton Spectator:
1. Georges Vezina
2. Jake Forbes

- goalies according to Hart voting:
1. Clint Benedict (3rd in Hart)
2. Jake Forbes (9th in Hart)

- WCHL all-star:
1. Hap Holmes

Lorne Chabot’s NHL career started later but you can say his 1925 and 1926 seasons are worth mentioning. Port Arthur Bearcats with Chabot in nets won the Allan Cup in both of these years. To qoute what @overpass posted in the preliminary thread (Montreal Gazette):

„This season marked (Chabot's) first in an Allan Cup series, and in both games against Varsity he was largely responsible for the victory gained by his club in competition for the senior amateur championship of Canada.“​

1926
St. Patricks finished 6th and missed the playoffs.
Senators wins the regular season. Lost the playoff series with the Maroons.

NHL all-star:
- no official AST

- Brooklyn Daily Eagle on April 4, 1926 published its NHL all-star teams:
1. Alec Connell
2. Clint Benedict
3. Roy Worters

- according to Hart voting:
1. Roy Worters (4th in Hart)
2. Charles Stewart (9th in Hart)

- WHL all-star:
1. George Hainsworth

1927
St. Patricks finished 5th (last) in the Canadian division.
Rangers with Chabot in nets wins the American division, lost the 2-game playoff series with the Bruins.
Senators wins the regular season and more importantly the Stanley Cup. Connell had a great playoffs, great enough that SIHR gave him a „retro Conn Smythe“.

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-star:
1. George Hainsworth
2. John Ross Roach
3. Roy Worters
4. Clint Benedict & Lorne Chabot (as honorable mentions)

- New Castle News on February 19, 1927 published the goalie ranking according to "three qualified experts from New York, Boston and Montreal":
1. Alec Connell
2. Jake Forbes
3. Clint Benedict
4. John Ross Roach
5. Hugh Lehman
6. Roy Worters

- New York Times on April 4, 1927 published its all-stars:
1. Alec Connell („…is first, second and third for the season“)
2. George Hainsworth, Lorne Chabot, Clint Benedict & John Ross Roach („…are all good men at the nets“)

- according to Hart voting:
1. Roy Worters (11th in Hart)

1928
Leafs ends 4th in Canadian division and missed the playoffs.
Rangers ends 2nd in American division and beats Pittsburgh, Boston and eventually Maroons to win the Stanley Cup.
Senators advanced to playoffs. Lost the quarterfinals series with the Maroons.

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-star:
1. Roy Worters
2. George Hainsworth
3. Alec Connell
4. John Ross Roach

- New York Evening Post on March 24, 1928 published own all-stars as a sort of their response to the coaches all-star selection:
1. Roy Worters
2. Alec Connell

- Ottawa Citizen on Nov 2, 1928. Writer quotes an unnamed NHL referee’s take on goalies and then adds his own opinion:

„According to Dick Gibson, Windsor scribe, one N.H.L. referee rates John Ross Roach the second best goalkeeper in hockey, Roy Worters, Pittsburgh hold-out, getting the call. The name of the referee was not divulged but there is no good reason why it should not have been as he is entitled to his opinion, which, after all, is only that of one person. It appears to be generally accepted around the circuit that Worters is the best goalkeeper in the N.H.L., although local hockey fans, and this writer is one of them, are not of the opinion that the little Pirate is superior to Alex Connell of the Senators, and few local fans, who, by the way, know their hockey at least as well as those of any other city, believe that Johnny Roach is the equal of Connell.“​

- according to Hart voting:
1. Roy Worters (2nd in Hart)

1929
Roach and Chabot are traded. Roach’s Rangers finished 2nd in American division and go through Americans and Leafs, to eventually lose to Bruins the SC finals.

Leafs with Chabot advanced to playoffs by finishing 3rd in Canadian division. Toronto defeated Detroit in quarterfinals, lost to Rangers in semifinals.

Senators didn’t qualify to playoffs.

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-star:
1. Roy Worters
2. George Hainsworth
3. Tiny Thompson

- The Morning Leader on Jan 26, 1929 selects all-stars for the first half of 1929 season:
1. Roy Worters
2. Charlie Gardiner

- according to Hart voting:
1. Roy Worters (1st in Hart)

- Bruins win the Cup and Tiny Thompson got a retro Conn Smythe by SIHR.

 

[DN28]

1930
Rangers finished 3rd in American division. Defeated the Senators, then lost to Canadiens in the semifinals.
Leafs finished 4th in Canadian division and missed the playoffs.
Senators advanced to playoffs from a 3rd place in Canadian division. Lost the quarterfinals series with the Rangers.

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-star:
1. Tiny Thompson
2. Roy Worters

- according to Hart voting:
1. Charlie Gardiner (7th in Hart)

- Canadiens win the Cup and George Hainsworth got a retro Conn Smythe by SIHR.

1931
Rangers finished 3rd in American division. Defeated the Maroons, then lost to Hawks in the semifinals.
Leafs finished 2nd in Canadian division and lost to Hawks in quarterfinals.
Senators didn’t qualify to playoffs.

- official NHL all-stars:
1. Charlie Gardiner
2. Tiny Thompson
3. Roy Worters
4. George Hainsworth
5. John Ross Roach
6. Lorne Chabot

- no goalie featured in Hart voting

1932
Rangers win the American division, defeats Canadiens in semifinals but lost the SC finals to the Leafs.
Leafs finished 2nd in Canadian division, went on to win the Cup through Hawks, Maroons and Rangers.
Connell moved to Detroit Falcons which advanced to playoffs from a 3rd place in American division. Lost the quarterfinals series with the Maroons.

- official NHL all-stars:
1. Charlie Gardiner
2. Roy Worters
3. Tiny Thompson
4. George Hainsworth
5. John Ross Roach
6. Lorne Chabot
7. Alec Connell

- no goalie featured in Hart voting

1933
Roach moves to Detroit. Red Wings finished 2nd in American division, went past the Marrons but stumbled upon Rangers in the semifinals.
Leafs win the Canadian division and beats Boston in the semifinals, lost to Rangers in the finals.
Connell played merely 15 games for the Senators. The Ottawa team, with most starts given to Bill Beveridge, failed to qualify to playoffs.

- official NHL all-stars:
1. John Ross Roach
2. Charlie Gardiner
3. Roy Worters
4. Tiny Thompson
5. Lorne Chabot
6. Dave Kerr

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-stars:
1. Charlie Gardiner
2. Roy Worters

- this season’s Hart voting data is very limited. But according to one source:
1. John Ross Roach (3rd in Hart)

1934
Roach played only 19 games for the Wings. Detroit won the American division with 29 games given to Wilf Cude. With Cude, Detroit advanced to SC finals where they lost to Black Hawks.
Chabot plays entire season for Montreal Canadiens. After 2nd place finish in Canadian division the team lost the quarterfinals to Black Hawks.
Connell was injured for most of the season. Played 1 reg. season game for the NY Americans.

- official NHL all-stars:
1. Charlie Gardiner
2. Roy Worters
3. Tiny Thompson
4. Wilf Cude
5. George Hainsworth
6. Andy Aitkenhead
7. Dave Kerr
8. Lorne Chabot & Bill Beveridge

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-stars:
1. Charlie Gardiner
2. Roy Worters
3. Tiny Thompson & Wilf Cude
5. George Hainsworth

- according to Hart voting:
1. Roy Worters (5th in Hart)

1935
Roach (23 gp) and Normie Smith (25 gp) both start for Detroit which finished 4th (last) in American division.
Chabot takes over the starting position in Chicago after Charlie Gardiner. Hawks went 2nd in American division and lost the quarterfinals to the Maroons.
Connell is back into full-time starter mode. Maroons advanced to playoffs and win the Stanley Cup. And although SIHR didn't give him a retro Smythe here, there is no doubt Connell had a "Conn Smythe worthy" run. Tommy Gorman called his play the "greatest goalkeeping performance in the history of hockey."

- official NHL all-stars:
1. Lorne Chabot
2. Tiny Thompson
3. Roy Worters
4. Alec Connell
5. George Hainsworth
6. Dave Kerr
7. Wilf Cude

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-stars:
1. Tiny Thompson
2. Roy Worters
3. Lorne Chabot, Wilf Cude & Alec Connell all mentioned with an undisclosed number of votes

- St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Jan 11, 1935) wrote mid-season:

„Thompson a Marvel. It was a great exhibition that Thompson gave. He is regarded as the best goalie in the business now that Chuck Gardiner, formerly of the Chicago Black Hawks, is dead, and there are few among the St. Louis fans who saw his marvelous performance last night who would dispute his claim to the place of the No. 1 goal tender.“​

- no goalie featured in Hart voting

1936
Roach’s career is over. Connell also doesn’t play this season.
After Chabot took the Hawks‘ spot after Gardiner’s outstanding 1934 playoffs, he’s now moved to Maroons to replace Connell after Connell himself had an excellent 1935 playoffs himself. Marrons win the Canadian division but lost the semifinals to Wings. Chabot plays just 16 reg. season games while Bill Beveridge 32. But Chabot played all 3 Maroons playoff games.

- official NHL all-stars:
1. Tiny Thompson
2. Wilf Cude
3. Mike Karakas
4. George Hainsworth
5. Roy Worters
6. Normie Smith

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-stars:
1. Tiny Thompson
2. Wilf Cude
3. Mike Karakas & George Hainsworth being mentioned

- no goalie featured in Hart voting

- Red Wings win the Cup and Normie Smith got a retro Conn Smythe by SIHR.

1937
Connell plays 27 reg. season games for the Maroons. Retires in January. Maroons advanced to playoffs with Bill Beveridge re-taking the starting role with 21 reg. season games.
Chabot played 6 reg. season games for NY Americans.

- official NHL all-stars:
1. Normie Smith
2. Wilf Cude
3. Tiny Thompson
4. Dave Kerr
5. Mike Karakas
6. Bill Beveridge

- unofficial NHL coaches‘ all-stars:
1. Wilf Cude
2. Normie Smith
3. Tiny Thompson, Mike Karakas & Dave Kerr being mentioned

- according to Hart voting:
1. Tiny Thompson (4th in Hart)

 

[DN28]

On superficial level, Roach career path reminds me of Tuukka Rask. They made a really good name for themselves in their first seasons. But then they were kind of okay, kind of on-and-off through the middle of their careers. Leafs with Roach and Bruins with Rask missed the playoffs couple of times..

Similarity continues with Roach getting the all-star recognition near his end in 1933 and Rask had a similar spike in 2020 season (2nd in Vezina and all-star). They were both 32 y/o and they both more or less vanished after 2 more seasons.

I'm leaning toward Roach ahead of Connell at the moment. Connell is in the HOF while Roach isn't so that goes against the canon but I wonder how much of Connell's fame rests on his two excellent playoffs. Roach just has more relevant seasons and doesn't look like a liability in playoffs either.

Rangers won Stanley Cup the season before and the season after they acquired Roach. Bad look for Roach and a possible explanation why the HOF left him behind and inducted Connell. But there is no indication that Roach himself was responsible for Rangers not winning the cup during his tenure there. In fact the opposite, the thread showed Roach received plenty of praise when he was on Rangers.

Both Roach and Connell should be a tier above Chabot. Chabot himself earned a money goalie reputation but at times he was also seemingly playing himself out of NHL. Leafs in the early 1930s put him on waivers. I don't think Roach was ever at the risk of losing his job from about 1922 till around 1934. Connell has some seasons with missing games but that seems to be entirely due to Connell's own professional choice or injuries, not by actually losing his form and falling behind.

On Chabot on waivers, The Leader-Post on March 19, 1931:

For example take Lorne Chabot. This year he is goalkeeper extraordinary and on one and more occasion has saved the day for the Toronto Leafs. Yet last year he appeared to have slumped to such an extent that the club offered waivers on him. Yet Lorne is as fine a net-minder as there is in the game today

The Vancouver Sun, Jan 15, 1932:

...waivers were asked on Chabot by the Leafs, and chances are that, had the waivers been pressed, he would have passed out of the major loop for every other club is pretty well fortified in the matter of net-minders. But, just about that time, Leafs were losing, and when Benny Grant cracked up in front of the powerful Maroon snipers in Montreal on the night of December 3, and lost 8-2, with Maroons bagging three goals in 38 seconds, the Leafs laid off Grant and gave Chabot another chance. Immediately Leafs started a terrific winning streak which ultimately swept them into the lead in their section...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not to derail (great work, DN28, this is awesome - I want to read this all again later), but is this the first mention of waivers? I can't imagine what that "system" looked like in 1931. They mention it pretty casually in the quoted above. But it looks like that term is fairly recent for the time...

Google Books Ngram Viewer

Google Ngrams: waivers, 1800-2022

books.google.com

Which is weird, because I doubt player contracts were guaranteed back then like they are today. @seventieslord does your library include NHL by-laws from 1926 by any chance?

(I guess the better question is: how many copies of it do you have? haha)