HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 7

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Joseph going from the leaky Oilers to the much more competent Leafs also resulted in a major change in Vezina recognition.
Also look at 1992. CuJo is 3rd and 4th the next two years, but he gets zero Vezina votes in 1992.

Since we're talking GSAA:

Goals Saved Above Average leaders, 1991-92
1.Patrick Roy* • MTL47
2.Curtis Joseph • STL43
3.Bob Essensa • WIN31
4.John Vanbiesbrouck • NYR29
5.Kirk McLean • VAN23
6.Kelly Hrudey • LAK17
7.Mike Richter • NYR16
8.Mark Fitzpatrick • NYI13
9.Stéphane Beauregard • WIN7
10.Ed Belfour* • CHI7

NHL general managers don't always know what they're talking about. A guy in St. Louis might get the Stan Musial treatment and be quietly ignored for a bit before people notice him.

Also whether or not he has 1 or 2 negative GSAA playoffs depends on your rounding. If you go by the method above, Joseph is neutral as one of his seasons was -0.4 GSAA.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
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Compiling?

For a goalie that is a net positive more often than not.

Cujo is a suspect case.

Sportscenter used to pimp him galore, and then he would lose against a key opponent, and there would be a pause and then rinse and repeat. (The Internet was not a huge factor in hockey until this century).

Curtis Joseph had a reputation of excelling against bad teams but ****ing the bed against good teams in the clutch.
Yeah like those terrible 1993 hawks, 1997 stars, and 1998 avs
 

Dr John Carlson

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Catching up on the thread now. I liked what I saw in an earlier post about grouping the goalies by their playoffs. I'll try and loosely group their whole careers here:

Group One - Inconsistent Cup winners
Barrasso
Bobrovsky
Fleury
Quick
Worsley

I don't know how well any of these guys will do for me this week. Looking at my initial list, I had 4 of these 5 all within an 8 spot range in the 50s, with Bobrovsky behind them by quite a bit. I don't think that'll change much in this vote.

I might take Fleury first among this group. Despite coming up on a team with two era-defining stars, he really was not put in a position to succeed at all. Each week when we have a recent goalie, I've been reaching out to team subforums to try and squeeze some extra info out of people who may have seen lots of these goalies' careers, and to get a bit more exposure onto this project. One Pens fan added this:

He's a goalie the team sabotaged because they were so cheap they tried to avoid playing him too much as a rookie so as not to pay him the rookie bonus.

Also didn't give him a proper goalie coach for years, his first proper goalie coach probably didn't come until a few years before he got dealt to Vegas, Mike Bales.

Meloche was awful and his tenure was more sporadic, didn't really do jack shit.
In the preliminary thread I learned that Fleury wasn't given a goalie coach when he started as a teenager, but I didn't know it took them this long to get him a real coach. If anyone here has any more on that, or any other coaching info for this week's names, I'd be greatly interested.

It's kind of shocking to me that an organization would draft an athletic, technically unrefined goalie 1st overall and just throw him overboard without a life preserver. That he wound up as successful as he's been speaks a lot to his talent.

On the other hand... man, some of those playoffs in the middle of his career... ugh.

Group Two - Weak team Hart finalists
Giacomin
Kiprusoff
Rayner
Vachon

I'm split on this group. I like Kiprusoff the most of the recent guys up for vote this week, and I like Vachon too. Rayner I'm still undecided on.

Giacomin I'm the most hesitant on, he'll almost certainly be an NR for me. From 66-67 to 69-70, here are just a sampling of some basic goalie counting stats leaders:

GP
Giacomin: 274
DeJordy: 179
Gamble: 177
Parent: 176
Maniago: 172

Wins
Giacomin: 139
Vachon: 85
Cheevers: 77
DeJordy: 72
Gamble: 72

Shutouts
Giacomin: 30
Esposito: 17
Hall: 16
Gamble: 13
Worsley: 11

It's really not surprising at all that he killed it in Hart/all star voting during this period... he was basically the only workhorse starter in a league of tandems! Then, it's also really not surprising that the award support dried up once he was utilized in a tandem, and the playoff results improved as well.

The 70-71 season is interesting. First team all star, token Hart support, so the usual for him, but this was year one of being a tandem guy with Gilles Villemure rather than being the workhorse. Anybody got any more on this year for him?

Group Three - Longtime 'solid yet unspectacular' guys
Connell
Holmes
Joseph
Vanbiesbrouck

Holmes and Vanbiesbrouck will do very well for me this week. The Vanbiesbrouck case has been laid out in bits of pieces by others in the thread - supremely consistent and technically solid.

I completely forgot that I had some Holmes info from the pre-merger project that I can post here. I took a deep dive into the 1914 Cup final between Toronto and Victoria because it featured a concentration of names who were up for discussion in Round 5, Holmes being one of them. I came away thinking Holmes was the clear MVP of the series, on a team loaded with HOFers. Here's the post. Click on the spoiler tags to see individual players' praise, so skip ahead to the Holmes sections if you like:

The 1914 Stanley Cup Finals

ResilientBeast's table showing the eligible players for each Stanley Cup Finals team piqued my interest. It looks like the 1914 and 1919 Finals contained the most eligible players for this round, with five a piece, so I decided to dive deep into one of those series to see what I could dig up. Walker, Holmes, and Foyston feature in both, but I decided to do 1914 as I am a little bit more interested in Dunderdale and Cameron than Morris and Pitre as historical profiles. Plus, the famous Scotty Davidson played in the 1914 final, and he may or may not show up for voting. So, I went at it the past couple of evenings.

This is how I'll format the post. I'll separate each game, give a summary and make some commentary, and then throw in some specific mentions of the eligible players involved. The commentary will be pretty long, so I'll enclose it within spoiler tags, similar to rmartin's season recap posts in the other thread. I pulled from a number of sources for this, and one thing that needs to be mentioned up front is that the Western and Eastern papers have very different viewpoints on how the games went. In light of this, during the game summaries I'll mark each quote with a (W) for West and an (E) for East, to explain the sometimes seemingly contradictory reporting. Bolded emphasis will be my own, of course.

-----

I won't go too deep into previews for the series, as it's mostly just the papers trying to gas up their side of the battle. The West all like the Aristocrats (who, curiously, are never actually called the Aristocrats during this time period - always Victoria, Vics, or Senators), while the East like the Torontos. But I'll include this biased passage as it makes a few direct comparisons between the teams:

The Victoria Daily Times - 13 March 1914 said:
Taking the teams man by man, it is seen that Victoria widens the margin between the two clubs. Bert Lindsay is far more experienced than Holmes and has been through a couple of world's series...”

“Toronto had to depend upon Jack Marshall and Harry Cameron. Marshall never saw the day when he was rated as good as or in the same class as Lester Patrick, while it remains to be seen whether [Bobby] Genge or Cameron will crack in their first world's series...”

“The coast champions have an extremely well-balanced attack, while every man on the forward line is a goal-getter. [Dubbie] Kerr and Dunderdale are stars in this line, while [Skinner] Poulin, [Walter] Smaill and [Bobby] Rowe have no equals when it comes to checking back and lasting out a hard game.

Take the Victoria line. Dunderdale is rated the hardest shot in the game, with Kerr a close second...”

“Against this array of stars, Toronto will pit Davidson, a strong skater and heady shot; Foyston, a comparative junior, who has yet to win his spurs in professional hockey, and Walker, a smooth stickhandler who has fallen away badly of late.

It's not clear what evidence there was to back up this declaration, as the same paper, a day earlier, reported that Walker and Cameron had been the stars for Toronto in their NHA final win over Montreal. But it's interesting, and it would prove not to age very well. With all that said, let's get on with it.


Game 1 – NHA Rules – Toronto Win 5-2

Victoria -
G – Lindsay
Point – L. Patrick
Cover – Genge
Centre – Dunderdale
RW – Poulin
LW – Kerr

Torontos -
G – Holmes
Point – Marshall
Cover – McNamara
Centre – Foyston
RW – Davidson
LW – Walker

Summary -

1st
Torontos – McNamara

2nd
Victorias – Dunderdale
Torontos – Marshall

3rd
Torontos – Walker
Torontos – Davidson
Torontos – McNamara
Victorias – Poulin

Before I even write about the game, an aside to show the odd narrative differences between Vics supporters and Blueshirt supporters in the press:

"When the red-shirted Victoria challengers skated on the ice the applause could easily have been drowned out by half a dozen ball fans from Lansdowne Parke stepping on an assortment of peanut shells.” (E)

"The Victorias were given a rousing and demonstrative welcome when they came on the ice fully ten minutes before the home team and indulged in an easy work-out to limber up.” (W)

Like, are you serious? Anyway. The score suggests a comfortable Blueshirt victory, but the reports illustrate a different story. In the West, it's claimed that the Vics outplay Toronto. In the East, Toronto is just a better team. But one thing is for certain - Hap Holmes saved the day for the home squad. Skinner Poulin and Bobby Genge are generally considered the best players for the visitors, and it's remarked that the Vics defense is better than their Toronto counterparts in old Jack Marshall and George McNamara. Scotty Davidson is reported to have come down with 'the grippe', or the flu as we now call it, and his play reflected it - little mention is made of him. And where's Harry?

As for the quality of hockey, the reports are that the spectators will not look back upon the game with rosy memories:

“The finest cure for insomnia on the market – watching the world's hockey series.” (E)

“The players in the world's hockey series will get a few hundred dollars apiece. If Saturday night was any criterion they should get six months.” (E)

“The Torontos are credited with having conditioned on strong liquor. And a casual observer on Saturday night would figure two or three of the Victoria team train exclusively on laudanum.” (E)

Finally, poor old Winnipeg is so lost in the sauce with amateur hockey that they get their signals crossed, and incorrectly report that the Stanley Cup final is being played in a two game, total goals series like the Allan Cup:

“In the opening contest Saturday night Toronto disposed of the westerners by a count of five to two and will enter the final game with a three-goal advantage. Total goals will decide the issue, but Victoria is far from being out of the battle.” (W)

Tommy Dunderdale

Dunderdale seems to have had a solid game. His stickhandling is noted quite often, and he did score one of the goals, though his skating was not noted as being a strength like I'd expected.

“Victoria proved to have three pretty fair hockey players in Genge, Dunderdale and Poulin, but Genge was the only man who can lay claim to any great speed. Lester Patrick is not the Lester Patrick of Wanderer days...” (E)

“Both Dunderdale and Poulin are elegant stick-handlers, and they could easily worm their way through three or four of the Torontos, but they hadn't the speed to get away and, once they really got going, Walker, Foyston and Davidson backchecked the westerners off the face of the hockey map.” (E)

“Genge and Poulin also showed up well, while Dunderdale scored one of Victoria's two goals, and was always a source of danger to the Toronto's defense.” (W)

“Dunderdale stick-handling the puck from behind the Toronto nets in front for a score, but was called back for kicking the puck.” (E)

“Walker handed the Victoria team their first score when he attempted to carry the puck out in front of his nets. Dunderdale is just about as good an exponent of the 'poke' check as the Toronto man and he used it to advantage, grabbing the puck and catching one bottom corner for a score.” (E)

^ Didn't expect that! It may only be one mention of Dunderdale's defensive work, but still better than nothing.

“Both teams made many replacements during the period and, with Wilson on for Davidson and Ulrich, the deaf mute replacing Dunderdale, Jack Marshall shot from well out and scored the third goal.” (E)

^ Yes, Jack Ulrich, a Victoria sub, really was deaf. sr edler has an interesting article on that here.

“Dunderdale tripped Foyston and drew a penalty and, while he was off and Smaill in his place, Toronto carried the play to Victoria.” (E)

“Another combination rush gave McNamara a shot and it was 5 to 1 with the Blueshirts still sweeping down on Lindsay, while Dunderdale and Poulin worked desperately to hold them out.” (E)

“In the last couple of minutes the Blueshirts merely loafed and appeared satisfied to let the defence do the rushing and checking. Dunderdale and Poulin, always trying, finally landed another goal just before the final whistle sounded, Poulin taking a pass from a scrimmage at the corner right in on Marchand for the final goal.”(E)

^ See the Hap Holmes section for explanation on the appearance of a rogue 'Marchand' in nets.

“As spectacular stick handlers at centre ice, Dunderdale and Poulin carried off the honors, but in scoring their work was not as effective as that of the men on the opposing line.” (E)

Kerr, Dunderdale and Poulin are not the equals of Foyston, Walker and Davidson in speed, back-checking or shooting ability, and even their vaunted combination play didn't show up.” (E)

Frank Foyston

Foyston didn't have a very noteworthy game, it seems. He is the player of this group who's probably the furthest from his prime (either him or Holmes), despite having a pretty solid season for the Blueshirts statistically, so my expectations weren't too high of him anyway.

“Genge rushed straight for the nets when he got possession and both McNamara and Marshall usually tried to carry right through but Davidson, Foyston, Kerr and Poulin did all kinds of ineffective circling round and stickhandling.” (E)

“The Torontos played a three man defence and appeared unwilling to open up and take chances, allowing Walker and Foyston to do all the work.

“McNamara started a three-man rush, he carrying the puck into the corner, drawing out the Victoria defence. He passed out to Foyston, who missed an open net as Lindsay had come out to meet him.”

Jack Walker

Walker played what could be described as 'Jack Walker game'. Noted for his active stick, he also nets what would end up being the winning goal.

“Jack Walker was doing the major portion of the work for the Torontos, his 'poke' check breaking up the rushes by Poulin and Dunderdale. Kerr did little but loaf during the opening period and, if he got in a shot on the nets, it passed unnoticed.” (E)

“Lindsay failed to stop a long shot from Walker and it was 3 to 1.” (E)

“Patrick relieved, but was checked by Walker who tried one of his long shots and scored from almost centre ice. This was the undoing of Victoria, as Torontos outplayed them from then until the call of time.” (E)

^ Interesting that it says 'one of his' long shots, like the implication is that Walker is known for trying long shots.

“... Marshall got away for a rush after taking a pass from Walker. The two went down together, and in watching Walker at centre Marshall was overlooked, which afforded him an opportunity to score, which again placed Torontos in the lead.” (E)

Hap Holmes

Undoubtedly the star of the game. Happy was everywhere in the game summaries. And, as well as Holmes played, Bert Lindsay appears to have played as poorly.

“In the Toronto nets Holmes, unaffected by any stage fright, [unintelligible] turned aside a dozen shots aimed at him by Poulin, Genge or Dunderdale.” (E)

“... Holmes turned away two or three dangerous mix-ups from his nets before the period ended.” (E)

“The Victorias came down time and time again and simply bombarded the Toronto nets, but could not beat Holmes.” (W)

“Holmes, the Toronto goalkeeper, was forced to put up the game of his life in stopping the spectacular rushes.” (W)

“Genge was showing to advantage, but Holmes was doing wonderful work.” (W)

“Satisfied that the game was won Marchand was sent in by Manager Marshall to replace Holmes, and the Toronto goaler was given an ovation when he skated off the ice.” (E)

^ This quote is later contradicted by The Gazette, who stated it was Claude Wilson who replaced Holmes at the end of the game with the result in hand, rather than who I presume to be Raymond Marchand. Marchand was also named in an above quote, which came from the same paper as this quote. Wilson is probably the correct goaler, but I included this because of the mention of an ovation, which I believe is likely true.

“In the nets Lindsay was the weak spot of the western outfit, he allowing two long shots to pass him, while at the other end Holmes played almost a flawless game.” (W)

^ Long shots... a real problem for those net-tenders on the Coast!

“According to telegrams that have been received from the Victoria players, the Pacific coast champions are just as confident as ever that they can return with the Stanley cup. The players state in their wires that the Torontos were lucky to hold the Victoria team down to two goals, Holmes being the great factor in the win of the Toronto club.” (W)

“Next to McNamara, Harry Holmes, in goal for the locals, was the shining star. Holmes had more work to do than Lindsay, but he did it well, while, on the other hand, Lindsay let several easy ones get by him.” (E)

“The wonderful work of Holmes in the Toronto nets broke the hearts of the Victoria players in the third period, the former Parkdale boy blocking seemingly impossible shots.” (W)

“Five to two for Toronto hardly reflects the credit due the Victoria team for their work in the opening game of the world's series Saturday. With a bit more luck the score might easily have been reversed. The visitors in the first and second periods shaded the NHA champions and but for the marvellous work of Holmes, who gave one of the best exhibitions of goal keeping ever witnessed on the local team, the westerners would have piled up a substantial lead in the three periods.” (W)

Harry Cameron

And then... there's our favourite problem child, Harry Cameron. His absence in the lineup above is conspicuous, to say the least. I'll let the papers explain what happened - in frustratingly vague language.

“It was freely rumored that Cameron wasn't in shape to play hockey early in the day and that his absence from the line-up was due to this fact.” (E)

“McNamara replaced Cameron on the local defence, and although not as speedy a player as regular rushed just as well and used good judgment when close in on the visitors' goal.” (E)

“The ginger and snap of former games here this season was sadly lacking, although at that the Toronto defence bodied better than they have all season, but this was accounted for by the fact that McNamara replaced Cameron.” (E)

“Cameron was kept on the bench throughout the match, he being disciplined by the club for an alleged misdemeanor on Friday. McNamara took his place at coverpoint, and proved himself a useful man, scoring two of the five goals through individual rushes.” (E)

"Playing under NHA rules the Vics were practically outclassed by the Toronto NHA title holders, despite the fact that the defenders of the 'mug' were without the services of Cameron, who was replaced by Geo. McNamara. Cameron was in uniform, but though Marshall used every spare available in the contest, for obvious reasons he did not deem it necessary to call upon his brilliant but erratic defence man.” (E)

And, of course, I was unable to find any further details. What on earth was Harry's deal? 'Obvious reasons'? Were the reporters unaware that amateur hockey historians 110 years later would not find these reasons to be obvious? Ugh.


Game 2 – PCHA Rules – Toronto Win 6-5

Victoria -
G – Lindsay
Point – Genge
Cover – L. Patrick
Rover - Poulin
Centre – Dunderdale
RW – Smaill
LW – Kerr

Torontos -
G – Holmes
Point – Marshall
Cover – Cameron
Rover - McGiffin
Centre – Foyston
RW – Wilson
LW – Walker

Summary -

1st
Torontos – Foyston
Torontos – Wilson
Victorias – Smaill
Victorias – Poulin
Torontos – Wilson

2nd
Victorias – Patrick
Victorias – Patrick
Victorias – Dunderdale

3rd
Torontos – McGiffin
Torontos – Foyston

Overtime
Torontos – McGiffin

After the first game, the Westerners were out in full force with their excuses:

“That the Senators took the ice with a crippled team at Toronto is the impression gained from a letter which Phil Burnett sent to the coast... Lester Patrick and Jack Ulrich collided in practice last week, Lester sustaining a huge gash in his hip, while Ulrich took the count... Dubbie Kerr collided with Genge at the same workout and the Brockville youth was unable to go the full route in Saturday's match.” (W)

Whatever their health may have been, the Vics suffered a very similar fate in game two. Mixed reports on who carried play, but the consensus was that Hap Holmes stole the show once again. A lot of what I read on Holmes, both in contemporary reports and after-the-fact writings, suggest he was sort of 'along for the ride' much of the time, and that he was not more than just a steady net guardian. At least in 1914, that label can't apply to him. What a performance!

The main story of the game, however, is the adjustment made by the Torontos to the seven-man Coast system. Reviews from the East show that fans could give or take the rover position, which had only been banished from the Eastern pro game a few years earlier, but the offside rule proved enthralling to the locals. The Ottawa Citizen diagnosed the impact of the rule like so:

“The new offside rule in center ice came in for a good deal of attention from the 'fans' and the general opinion is that it is a good style for an old man's club, but not for a young team that has any speed. The latter, under the Western rules, have not a chance to show their true worth, as they are not able to use their speed to the most advantage, while, on the other hand, it favors slower players, who have only to possess a shot to be dangerous, as they can loaf around this section of the ice, grab the puck and then be within shooting distance.” (E)

And, the Vancouver Daily World admitted that the Torontos had less of a problem adjusting than anticipated:

“The Toronto puck-chasers showed that the western rules, seven-man team and absence of offside in centre ice was just as familiar to them as the eastern rules under which the first game of the series was played.

The western style with free passing in centre ice made an instantaneous hit with the public as well as with the Torontos who used it to almost as much advantage as the Westerners.” (W)

Scotty Davidson was gripped by 'the grippe' and was too sick to play. Noted 'Bad Man' Cully Wilson took his spot and didn't appear to make much impact. Toronto papers did not feel a need to whine about their own injury problems, with Davidson out and Harry Cameron iffy. Definitely a tough look for the Westerners.

Meanwhile, in Winnipeg... they still haven't figured it out that it's not two game, total goals, incorrectly reporting the series finished with the following headline:

“VICTORIA FAILS TO LIFT FAMOUS STANLEY TROPHY”

Tommy Dunderdale

The Aussie played a better game than before, but was still remarked to have not played quite up to standard. I'm interested in how he's frequently noted for a habit of shooting from too far out. This leads me to two deductions: one, he probably developed this habit because it actually worked on the Coast, and two, he probably wasn't much of a playmaker to turn his rushes into assists instead of shots on goal. The latter deduction matches with the general perception of him in this thread, from what I can tell.

"Genge and Dunderdale are the shining lights for the Victorias... Dunderdale is very tricky and can stand a lot of watching. He took possession of the puck many times by superb stickwork, and even penetrated the defence by his wonderful work in dodging players.” (E)

“In the last period Victoria had many chances with only one man to pass but preferred to shoot from outside the defence. Dunderdale was the worst offender in this respect. Holmes, who is generally weak on long shots, was not caught napping tonight.” (W)

^ Okay, so did every custodian of the time struggle on long shots?

“Patrick played beautiful hockey and was responsible for the visitors' first two tallies. Dunderdale gathered in the third after a beautiful display of stick handling.” (E)

“Dunderdale chopped Foyston over the head, and simultaneously McGiffen took a swipe at Genge, both being penalized.” (E)

“Dunderdale and Patrick put up a grand exhibition of the game, and they looked far better than on the first appearance.” (E)

“Dunderdale was flashy, but he shot from too far out.” (E)

Tommy Dunderdale... is probably the best of the Victoria Stanley Cup hunters.” (E)

Frank Foyston

Foyston had a much more noticeable game this time around. Maybe it's due to the lack of Davidson meaning the inferior Cully Wilson had to round out the forward trio, but there's a lot of ink spilled on the duo of Foyston and Walker together, some of which I put in the Walker section. They definitely had chemistry.

"Foyston outplayed Dunderdale at center ice. The latter, like the other members of the visitor's forward line, showed up in the last period.” (E)

“Walker zigzagged his way from centre ice, centring to Wilson. Lindsay blocked and McGiffen scored on the rebound. The crowd yelled to tie it up, and, after eight minutes of heart-breaking play, Foyston responded with a long rush that took him to the goal mouth for the tying goal.” (E)

“The rubber went from end to end with Victoria having a full share of play until another thirteen minutes had gone by, when Foyston, by a clever bit of skating and stick handling, got inside and lodged the puck in a corner. Lindsay had no chance to save.” (W)

“Foyston and Walker started as usual with their terrific shooting and work around their opponents' defence.” (E)

“Cameron and Foyston were responsible for a rush which terminated in the final goal and the Toronto victory. They came up the ice together and evaded Genge and Patrick and Cameron shot, but Lindsay was equal to the occasion and shot the puck toward the side. McGiffen pounced on the rubber and placed it between the nets before Lindsay had time to recover and the game was over.” (W)

"Foyston was one of the brightest men on the ice.” (E)

“The forward line all played good hockey, but Foyston was the best on the attack. He handled the puck splendidly and unlike the Victoria forwards, he tried to get inside the defence before he shot. He was successful several times, the first goal being scored in this manner.” (E)

Jack Walker

Another steady game for Walker. No goals, but again is praised for his defence. The quote about him not rushing as much as usual is pretty much exactly how I've always imagined his playing style being. I wonder if, as he aged, he dropped the rushing more or less entirely. Based on his scoring numbers, that kind of has to be the case, doesn't it?

"Poulin at right wing gave Walker some trouble in the early part of the game, but the local forward stopped him with his famous hook check..."

^ Only his second professional season, and already famous for his hook check.

“...McGiffin, who was on regularly, was one of the stars of the night. Walker was a close second, while Holmes, Marshall and Cameron all did good work on the defence." (E)

“The Toronto forwards gave their defence great help by consistent back-checking. Foyston and Walker were the best in this play. The latter did not rush as much as usual. He contented himself with assisting the defence and making the pass to his teammates farther up the ice.” (E)

The following few paragraphs were from a Coast article on Walker, I guess written because of his shared bloodline with Bobby Genge. It's written in much more flowery language than a Western paper normally would for an enemy player, but they did manage to toss in some home-cooking in the last paragraph. 'Probably' helps his defence more than Dubbie Kerr? Come on...:

“Blood may be thicker than water, but apparently Jack Walker is not going to let the fact that he is a cousin of Bob Genge's stand in the way of any goals that he can score on the Victoria team in the present world series. Walker was very prominent in Saturday's victory over the coast champions and this youngster has proven one of the real stars of the Toronto club throughout the NHA season.

Walker is a very speedy skater and his hook check has worked havoc amongst the other clubs in the NHA. He is very clean and seldom draws a warning or fine for his playing, and he is about the most popular forward on the club.

... he is the logical choice as left wing for the eastern all-star hockey selection. Just how he would stack up against Dubbie Kerr remains to be seen. Walker is a much more finished check and probably helps out his defence more, but he is not the individual star that Kerr is and is not there with the pinch-goals that are the specialty of the Victoria left wing.” (W)

^ And, I believe 'pinch-goals' are the 1910s equivalent of clutch scoring. I could be wrong on that, though.

Hap Holmes

Holmes continued his quest for the retro-retro Conn Smythe with another dazzling performance. Again, Bert Lindsay is just getting killed in this matchup. Interestingly, both a Toronto paper and the Victoria Daily Times offer an estimate on Holmes's workload for this game: Toronto claims he made ~50 saves, while Victoria gave more definitive numbers, with Holmes making 38 saves and Lindsay only saving 18.

“Luck played a considerable part in the deciding of the game. Victoria certainly deserved to win on the play, but the superb work of Holmes in goal offset their advantage in this particular, and the locals won out because of their ability to go the route in overtime. If Lindsay was in the same class as the Blueshirt net-tender the tale might have been different, but Holmes was not beaten once by shots from outside the defence, while the Westerner even let one from mid-ice get by him.” (E)

“Holmes saved the day for the Blueshirts with his great work in the nets, and too much can hardly be said in his praise.” (E)

“Toronto played more ragged hockey and displayed less combination than the Victorias who took numerous chances on shooting from outside defense, but Holmes beat them every time...” (W)

The superiority of Harry Holmes over Bert Lindsay in goal had a lot to do with the locals' victory; in fact, had they been reversed the visitors would have had a comfortable margin at the finish. Holmes was again in rare form, and after the challengers had secured one goal, by batting in a rebound, his clearing was perfect. Indeed, his quickness in turning aside the rebound saved the goal time and time again. On the other hand, Lindsay allowed several easy shots to slip in, as he was very bad on anything to the side of the net. He stopped a few dangerous ones.” (E)

“Holmes in goal played an excellent game, and if there was one place where the locals were superior it was in the nets.” (E)

“The visitors in the first and second periods shaded the NHA champions and, but for the marvellous work of Holmes, who gave one of the best exhibitions of goal keeping ever witnessed on the local ice, the Westerners would have piled up a substantial lead in the three periods.” (W)

Harry Cameron

Cameron is back in action, but is clearly not in game form. His rushes may have been stymied most of the time, but as mentioned in Foyston's section, he did connect with Frank on a rush for the winning tally. It is interesting how he's described as having 'not been in game shape' and that Jack Marshall would be 'taking a chance' if he played Cameron. To me, that says his 'misdemeanor' from the first game must've been something related to his health. Was he known as a drinker? That's just speculation on my part.

“As a result of Davidson's absence, Holmes will be in goal with Marshall and McNamara on the defence. Harry Cameron with his speed and good shooting ability will hold down the position of rover, something new to the local 'fans' in professional hockey.” (E)

“The Torontos will be crippled tonight, as Allan Davidson is reported out of the game owing to an attack of grippe, and it is doubtful if Jack Marshall will take a chance on playing Harry Cameron. George McNamara, who was Toronto's strong man on Saturday, will again figure on the defence, while the line will consist of Walker, Wilson, Foyston, and probably Corbeau or Cameron.” (E)

“Marshall and Cameron were steady on the defence. Cameron had no success with his rushes, the extra man putting a stop to his circling.” (E)

“Since the series started the Blueshirts have met with all the misfortunes. They have lost Davidson through illness, and Cameron has not been in shape to play.” (E)


Game 3 – NHA Rules – Toronto Win 2-1

Victoria -
G – Lindsay
Point – L. Patrick
Cover – Genge
Centre – Dunderdale
RW – Poulin
LW – Kerr

Torontos -
G – Holmes
Point – Marshall
Cover – Cameron
Centre – Foyston
RW – Wilson
LW – Walker

Summary -

1st
None

2nd
Torontos – Foyston

3rd
Torontos – Cameron
Victorias – Kerr

In what sounds like a truly miserable and awful game of ice hockey, the Toronto Blueshirts capture Lord Stanley's mug. It's unclear if Victoria wanted to take a pound of flesh from Toronto on their way home, or if Toronto felt a need to beat the Vics in the octagon as well as on the ice, but either way, it was a total donnybrook out there. Fights and dirty plays all game long. As always, both sides are in disagreement on who had the better of play. The main difference between this game and the first two was that the goaltending battle was much more even. In fact, Lindsay actually had a really good game.

Davidson was back in the lineup, but only as a sub, meaning this was the only game of the series where both teams were at full strength, on paper.

The game was won by Toronto's defence:

“The Victoria forwards did not locate the net with their usual skill, and this was their chief weakness throughout the entire series. The Senators presented a stonewall defense, only to have their forwards fall down on their numerous chances to score...

Toronto's defence was also in top form, and the contest was literally a game in which the tremendous share of the work was performed by the defense players.” (W)

Finally, a fitting conclusion to the battle fought in the press:

“Though beaten three straight the Victorias did not show any marked inferiority to their opponents.” (W)

“Good bye, Victoria, come again when the coast teams improve a little.” (E)

Tommy Dunderdale

Not good stuff here.

“The game opened up by Dunderdale and Cameron having a wrestling match...” (E)

^ That's it. That's the one time Dunderdale was mentioned in any game summaries, except for one passing mention where it's stated that he would soon be heading back home to Winnipeg. Where was he? A Victoria Daily Times article from a week later reveals the truth:

“[Rowe] says that Bert Lindsay had a couple of off nights and that made things look bad, while the Torontos secured the breaks through the series. The failure of Tommy Dunderdale to shine broke up the Victoria attack...

... Lester Patrick may see his way clear to make several trades that should benefit the champions. Bobby Rowe was used for the greater part of the Toronto series, Tommy Dunderdale playing but eighteen minutes of the third game.” (W)

^ In a close game, with the Stanley Cup on the line, Dunderdale was benched? It doesn't sound right, and I thought at first that he must've taken a ton of penalty minutes and missed out on ice time that way, but the game reports only mentioned the one tussle between him and Cameron. The Ottawa Citizen lists substitutions for the game, and they went like this for Tommy: he was sat for Rowe in the first, came back in for Rowe in the second, went back out for Patrick in the third and then came back in for Poulin to end the game. That's a lot of movement... his counterpart at centre, Foyston, played the full sixty minutes. So, I'm not sure what to think of it. It seems like Dunderdale really was benched for extended periods of time in this game. I'd have thought a rough-and-tumble game like this would be his specialty.

Also, this could be reading too much into it, but if Dunderdale was benched, then the following quote is potentially very damning:

“[Victoria's] entire forward line, with the exception of Poulin, displayed more speed and better judgment in handling the puck when close in on the nets, and Holmes was given plenty to do.” (W)

I'd assume in the case of Dunderdale's benching, he wouldn't be included amongst the forward line mentioned, meaning the line looked better without him. Again, could just be looking for something that isn't there.

One more for the road:

“Bobby Genge, the Victoria point man, made a big hit with Toronto fans. Tom Dunderdale could not get going and was a disappointment.” (W)

Frank Foyston

Foyston got better and better as the series progressed, if the summaries are to be believed. In a game with little real hockey being played, he seems to have avoided the rough stuff more than the rest of them, which is reflected in his playing the full sixty. You get the impression that Frank Foyston is a winning hockey player.

“Foyston again starred. He scored the first goal in the second period by a beautiful end to end rush.” (W)

“Foyston and Wilson were tireless workers, but had little chance against the heavy work of the husky defence.” (W)

“Foyston was again in the limelight with his brilliant stick handling.” (E)

Foyston, who was the real hero of the series, tallied four goals, all of them on lone rushes." (W)

^ I'm unsure about Foyston's stat line. Wikipedia has him scoring two goals this series, the above quote has him with four, and unless I totally fell asleep on the scoring summaries he should only be credited with three.

Jack Walker

The Jack Walker of 1914 was a true all-around stud, on both offense and defense. It's curious how he never really came close to matching his offense from this season again. I thought maybe Scotty Davidson had been doing the heavy lifting on offense, but it's clear to me that Walker was more than capable of being an excellent offensive player on his own. That's not so much based on Scotty's performance, as he was not close to 100%, but more on Walker's performance plus the amount of reverence placed on his name versus Davidson's.

“Walker and Genge also took a flop, it perhaps being the first time here this season that Walker has used his body in a check.” (E)

“Walker had his fingers smashed in the third period, when Poulin took a slash at them while Walker was rushing...” (E)

“It would be difficult to single out any player in particular, on the night's play, so close was the checking. Walker, however, as usual, did a tremendous lot of useful backchecking, and was ably assisted by Foyston.” (E)

“Kerr was the bright star of the forward line, closely followed by Smaill. Davidson, Walker, and Holmes were the pick of the Toronto club.” (W)

Walker proved the hardest man for the Victoria team to stop. He frequently secured the puck at his own goal, evaded the entire Victoria forward line, and then combined in with one of his team-mates for a shot.” (E)

“At a dinner tonight at the Ontario Club, given to President Emmett Quinn, of the NHA... President McCaffery, of the Toronto Ball club, who was one of the guests, stated that in view of the many past favors shown him by the local hockey clubs, especially the Toronto band of supporters, that he would, on behalf of the Toronto Ball Club, offer a trip south with his ball club to their training quarters to the most popular and most valuable man on the Toronto hockey team. A committee consisting of Percy Quinn, V.. McAree, and Jas. Norris was appointed, and they, like the fans, agreed that Jack Walker was the man who should take the trip, and therefore the popular Toronto player will leave in a few days for the south...” (E)

^ Here's a good one. You'd definitely sense that Hap Holmes was the star of the series for Toronto, but Jack Walker was voted (albeit by only a three-man panel) the most valuable Blueshirt. Based on the Victoria article after the second game, I'd say this is almost certainly a season-long award rather than an award for the series. Walker ended up turning down the invitation.

Hap Holmes

Holmes did not stand out like he did the first two games, but it's possible he didn't need to. Bert Lindsay actually had an excellent game, and it's remarked that if Lindsay had performed like this in the first two games, the result would've been very different. The difference appeared to have been in the long shots, which Lindsay was unable to fix until it was too late. Holmes would be my pick for series MVP.

“Holmes played steadily in goal, his work again featuring the game.” (W)

“Torontos' weight and superior shooting told the tale of last night's game, the Blue Shirts showing a much better attack, while Holmes was practically invulnerable.” (W)

Harry Cameron

Cameron was at the forefront of the physicality, and also received a brief mention for his trademark rushing ability. He scored the Cup-winning goal, but also was partly responsible for the Vics' lone goal. Not sure what to think of his series.

“'Skinner' Poulin, the 'bad man' of the coast, was right in his element... Once Harry Cameron swung around and 'beaned' him with his stick, but the Western player only shook his head and went right on playing.” (E)

“Genge also finished the last period, his retirement being due to a bump when Cameron met him with a body check as Genge was rushing.” (E)

“Torontos looked to have the game on ice, when Marshall and Cameron on a rush in the third period scored, the latter doing the trick. However, four minutes later and just after the puck had been faced, after Genge and Davidson had taken a trip to the fence for fighting, Dubbie Kerr rushed up the right side, got by Cameron and beat Holmes from a shot in close.” (E)

“Marshall and Cameron used their body more effectively than heretofore, the latter making sure of his man by skating right into him.” (E)

^ I assume this just means Cameron hits his man with a normal bodycheck, but the fact that they word it like this makes me think his hitting technique is unorthodox...

“Cameron was in his element with six men aside and electrified the crowd with his rushes. His shooting, too, was deadly.” (E)

I have one more interesting quote that doesn't really fit with the rest... after the series, a lot of praise is heaped upon Manager Jack Marshall, the 'come-back' veteran of the team. One article mentions how Marshall deserves even more credit because he was forced to deal with the two biggest headcases in the league:

The Daily News Advertiser - 22 March 1914 said:
"As a manager, [Marshall] achieved a magnificent success in spite of the fact that he had the worst actors in the league to handle in Davidson and McGiffen. The former is inclined to resent the discipline of training while the latter has supplanted Joe Hall as the 'bad man' of the NHA.”

Wait, what? Scotty Davidson, the future fallen war hero, is listed, instead of the dude who sat on the bench for an entire evening because of a 'misdemeanor'? Like so many quotes from these 110 year old newspapers, it'll have to be filed in the 'I don't know what to make of this' department.

-----

So what can we make of the rest of it? I don't want to draw too much of a conclusion on these players from a three game sample size, but I have a few takeaways.

- Of all the five players I looked at, Tommy Dunderdale was probably the one who was closest to his peak in 1914, yet he also comes away looking the worst here. ResilientBeast opined earlier that he might be a 'bad team good stats' guy and I do not believe Tommy beat those allegations with his performance here. We can look back now and say that Toronto had a much better team on paper, and that having Jack Walker and Scottie Davidson as your wingers is a sweeter gig than having Dubbie Kerr and Skinner Poulin, but I'd still hope for better from Dunderdale here. Bobby Genge and Lester Patrick are both described as having had excellent series from the back-end, and the offense is described as having been a big problem. Dunderdale should wear a good amount of that.

- Harry Cameron is a tough nut. I actually wasn't aware that he was already up to something in 1914, I figured his headcase status wasn't earned until the late 1910s. The series is basically a write-off for him, yet his team wins easily, and McNamara plays a great game as his replacement. It's not the best look, but he does have two other Cups to lean on, both of which were probably closer to his peak than this one was. I don't think it will change much how I rank him.

- Foyston comfortably outplayed Dunderdale. Again, there's the thing about his wingers being a lot better, but still. Foyston was not yet in his prime and was already getting rave reviews as an offensive centre with a good defensive conscience. Him and Walker really worked well together, and I come away unsurprised that they enjoyed a lot of good years on the same line.

- This looks to have been Walker's offensive peak, he's already famous for his defense, and he was named best Blueshirt. How many players left for voting have been the best player on a Cup winner? Honest question, it may be more than I can think of off the top of my head - or it may not.

- Hap Holmes is probably the player whose stature improved the most with me after this. I haven't had him in my top 10 yet, but he'll be up there now. Coast league goaltending smells a bit fishier now than it did before. Bert Lindsay being unable to handle long shots, Hugh Lehman apparently having a weakness for long shots, Tommy Dunderdale favouring long shots off the rush... Lester Patrick is, at one point, noted for the booing he receives from the crowd after attempting a long shot from centre ice. To me, it's a tough look. Then again, Holmes is mentioned as sometimes being weak on long shots. Maybe the definition of a 'long shot' back in those times was just anything that wasn't coming from the slot?

- As I said, Scotty Davidson may or may not show up for voting. And I really don't want to make grand judgments based on three games. But when we're talking about a player who was done with hockey at 23, it's not quite as bad. I expected his name to be spoken with awe, and reverence. There's none of that. Walker and Cameron are clearly bigger stars in Toronto, and Marshall is more respected. I think Davidson might just be a good young player who died a hero's death. Now, enough about ineligible players - I need to go to sleep.

Group Four: 'Best in the world' contenders
Percy LeSueur

Just him, I think. At least, over any prolonged stretch of time, which I'd say would be ~5 years. Maybe Giacomin is the closest contender, but you'd have to take his award voting at face value, and I don't know that we should. That LeSueuer is still available shows that there's obviously an era penalty being applied here, which makes sense to me. He'll move up on my ballot by default because the newcomers don't knock my socks off. Hmm, what to do...
 
Last edited:

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,384
7,737
Regina, SK
Joseph going from the leaky Oilers to the much more competent Leafs also resulted in a major change in Vezina recognition.
At that stage I wouldn't say they were any better than Edmonton even, they were much more high flying team coached to play run and gun hockey and were quite passive in the defensive zone. Edmonton at least was full of gritty Ethan Moreau types at forward playing with a bit of an us against the world mentality.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,969
512
Seat of the Empire
At that stage I wouldn't say they were any better than Edmonton even, they were much more high flying team coached to play run and gun hockey and were quite passive in the defensive zone. Edmonton at least was full of gritty Ethan Moreau types at forward playing with a bit of an us against the world mentality.
Ironically, Joseph was gone by the time Moreau came to Edmonton (though it doesn't change the point, they did have those types).
 
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Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,969
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www.youtube.com
Worsley received non-negligible all-star goalie votes throughout his career from the 1950s through 1960s up to 1970s.
Thanks for at least posting your reasoning. It's not necessarily my cup of tea, but I'm glad that it's out there.

The only thing I'd say is that the quoted doesn't really hold up for me.

1956 - 3AS (2nd in 1H; 0 in 2H)
1957 - Negligible (a single 1H vote)
1961 - 3AS (a distant 3rd in 1H; 0 in 2H)
1963 - Negligible (0 in 1H, a distant 4th in 2H [8 points])
1966 - 2AS
1968 - 1AS without winning 1H or 2H voting
1969 - Negligible. (4 points, a weak 6th just a point better than Bruce Gamble)
1971 - Negligible. (1 point; along with five other goalies)
1972 - 4AS (19 points, narrowly ahead of two other guys)

Obviously, award voting isn't anything interesting on its own...all the standard disclaimers. But we have a 21 year NHL career, predominantly in a 6-team league, and then he had the advantage of being on THE team when expansion happened (until his move to Minnesota)...21 years, we have like 4ish seasons that drew interest. 5ish?

I'd call it a "sprinkling of all star goalie votes that accompanied his career" haha
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,574
3,981
Ottawa, ON
At that stage I wouldn't say they were any better than Edmonton even, they were much more high flying team coached to play run and gun hockey and were quite passive in the defensive zone. Edmonton at least was full of gritty Ethan Moreau types at forward playing with a bit of an us against the world mentality.

Agreed on the Leafs, Joseph got a lot of recognition in 98-99 because they were playing an attacking style and he had to bail them out.

But I remember late 90s Edmonton playing relatively wide-open hockey as well for that era. Lots of rushes going both ways. I was always happy to see them on the late game on HNIC.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
12,155
6,648
Talk about myopic, looking at things with Canucks tinted glasses. That series was not supposed to be close fought, Calgary has been the heavy favourite. And yet...

Heavy favourite lol. Vancouver finished 4th and 7th in the league the two prior seasons, in 92 and 93 respectively, as a divisional champion both times (meaning ahead of Calgary both times), with a more or less identical roster, so a well-above average hockey club around this time. In 93–94 they slumped somewhat in the regular season, but still only ended up with one (1) less win than the supposedly oh-so-mighty Flames.

In the following playoffs some of Canucks gamers who had been sleep-walking through the regular season (most notably Linden) woke up, and Calgary's regular season luck of pushing games to OT ran out of gas.

Wins and losses btw is largely a team stat anyways. One of the most impressive goalie displays I've seen in the last decade was Jonathan Quick in the 2018 1st round series against Vegas where he won 0 games but was outstanding.

Btw, I'm not claiming Vernon was fantastic or anything, for all intents and purposes his Smythe was very weak (comparatively speaking), but there are two sides to this coin. There are two sides to many goalie coins.
 
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MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,969
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Heavy favourite lol. Vancouver finished 4th and 7th in the league the two prior seasons, in 92 and 93 respectively, as a divisional champion both times (meaning ahead of Calgary both times), with a more or less identical roster, so a well-above average hockey club around this time. In 93–94 they slumped somewhat in the regular season, but still only ended up with one (1) less win than the supposedly oh-so-mighty Flames.

In the following playoffs some of Canucks gamers who had been sleep-walking through the regular season (most notably Linden) woke up, and Calgary's regular season luck of pushing games to OT ran out of gas.

Wins and losses btw is largely a team stat anyways. One of the most impressive goalie displays I've seen in the last decade was Jonathan Quick in the 2018 1st round series against Vegas where he won 0 games but was outstanding.

Btw, I'm not claiming Vernon was fantastic or anything, for all intents and purposes his Smythe was very weak (comparatively speaking), but there are two sides to this coin. There are two sides to many goalie coins.
Does any of that really change the point though? He played (very) poorly for 4 games out of 7 *and* he explicitly lost games in OT due to demented goaltending attempts. And keep in mind 94 was probably the best of his runs in the 90s (pre-Smythe), it was not an outright abomination like 93 for instance, but my point is more wide-reaching than just 94 series (which is really just a fringe part of the whole point at best). Early 90s Vernon was outright losing his team series, and singlehandedly destroyed what could be a great contender or even a mini-dynasty.
 

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