HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 7

[Hockey Outsider]

Thanks for posting. This is largely consistent with what I remember. (I would have watched all, or almost all, of these games - not that my memory is infallible 20+ years later).

In 1999, he was excellent in round 1. In round 2 he struggled with peak Jagr (understandable) but was fairly good overall. The conference finals against Buffalo was probably a coin flip had Hasek been healthy. Joseph had a couple of really bad games and only went 1-1 facing off against an inexperienced Dwayne Roloson. Definitely a disappointing end, as this series was winnable. (Regardless, the Leafs would have been trounced by Dallas).

The 2002 summary excludes the 7 game war against the Islanders. That was one of the roughest series of the Dead Puck Era. Joseph was fairly good overall (but he had a couple of bad games). The entire team looked awful in game 1 against Ottawa (the Leafs only had one day to rest while the Sens had a full week - Joseph wasn't good but the entire team was horrendously outplayed). But he was lights out the rest of the way. Joseph held the Sens to 13 goals over the next 6 games (one of which went into triple OT). Keep in mind that Sundin missed the entire series. The Leafs absolutely should have lost, but Joseph won the series for them (and Gary Roberts).

I'll defend Joseph's play in the 2002 conference finals. He was excellent. "Outplayed by Arturs Irbe" isn't a great look, but I didn't see much difference in the actual performance. To the extent Joseph was blamed (and I don't recall much at the time), it was scapegoating. The Leafs big three scorers (Sundin, Mogilny and Roberts) combined for 2 goals and 2 assists in a six game series. The Leafs scored 3 goals in the final 4 games. If I've added this up correctly, they scored 4 goals over the final 355 minutes (0.67 goals per 60). Joseph did everything he realistically could have done. (Once again, the Leafs would have been absolutely trounced in the SC Finals, so the drought would have continued, but the forwards need to take the blame for this one).

Overall, during the Leafs two deep runs, I think Joseph had three excellent series (1999 Flyers, 2002 Sens, 2002 Canes), two good but not great series (1999 Pens, 2002 Isles), and one bad series (1999 Sabres).

A few more thoughts on Joseph (by the way, nobody should be using this as a substantive argument for or against him, I'm just sharing my recollections about these series:

I didn't talk about 2000 and 2001. Both had identical opponents and outcomes - a round 1 win against Ottawa, and a round 2 loss against the Devils.

In 2000, he was very strong against Ottawa. The Leafs finished a few points ahead in the standings, but it was expected to be a close series. He had one bad game but helped the Leafs win games that they probably should have lost (ie winning 1-0 in a game where they were outshot 30-20; winning an elimination game where the Leafs were outshot 38-24).

In the second round, going head to head against Brodeur in his prime, Joseph looked to be his equal. The Leafs lost in six, but they were poorly matched against the Devils, and were badly outplayed the whole round. (This was the infamous "six shots in an elimination game" series). He was the Leafs best player in most of the games (he helped Toronto win 2-1 in a game they were outshot 33-21; he lost 1-0 but held the Devils to only one goal in a game where they outshot the Leafs 33-20; he helped the Leafs win 3-2 in a game where they were outshot 36-22). He wasn't bad in the game six loss (two goals on 26 shots), and besides, what's a goalie going to do when Sergei Berezin singlehandedly takes half of the team's shots in an elimination game?

Joseph was even better in 2001 against Ottawa. This time, the Sens were the clear favourite (on paper - they finished 19 points ahead). Joseph very nearly had three consecutive shutouts (the Sens didn't score on him for the first 177 minutes of the series). Yes, only a four game sample size, but he had this aura of invincibility, very much like Roy on his strongest playoff runs. Stats aren't everything, but it's hard to ask for much more than a 97.6% save percentage and a 0.71 GAA.

The 2001 series against New Jersey was frustrating. The Leafs made it to game seven this time, but once again, they were very much outmatched. This was the worst of the four series I've talked about here, by a wide margin. Joseph was awful in game seven (but the Leafs as a whole were lifeless). He still had a few good games (he posted a shutout to help Toronto win a game they were outshot 32-17). Or there were games where he played well but the matchup was so one-sided I'm not sure if any goalie would have made a difference (keeping the Leafs close in a game that they eventually lost in OT, having been outshot 45-28). Brodeur wasn't very good this series either. I think it's literally true to say that Joseph was Brodeur's equal for the second year in a row (but last year they were both great, and this year they both disappointed). Joseph didn't cost the Leafs, but it's fair to say that he could have stolen the series with a stronger performance.

I know that Joseph's playoff performances get criticized, but he was very good in Toronto. By my count he was great to excellent in six series (1999 vs Flyers, 2000 vs Sens, 2000 vs Devils, 2001 vs Sens, 2002 vs Sens, 2002 vs Canes - not to get too stat heavy but his simple/unweighted save percentage was 94.1% and it's not because I'm cherry picking his wins because he actually lost two of these series). He was solid to good in three series (1999 vs Pens, 2002 vs Isles, 2002 vs Devils - the first two being "good enough to win" and the last one being "wouldn't have made a difference"). The only series that he actively cost them was 1999 vs Buffalo.

Lastly, a comment on the 2002 Olympics. I distinctly remember that Pat Quinn's plan was to play Joseph and Brodeur in the first two games, and see how it went from there. Intentionally or not, this was setting Joseph up for failure. Team Canada was disorganized in the first game, and they played a strong, skilled Swedish team (and were trounced). Brodeur played against Germany, a vastly weaker opponent, and the Canadian team was already starting to look more cohesive. I clearly remember thinking, at the time, that Brodeur didn't look any better than Joseph, and the difference in the results was due to the quality of their teammates and opponents. (It was rumoured, but never confirmed, that Quinn playing Brodeur for the remainder of the short tournament created a rift between them, and was responsible for Joseph going to Detroit as a free agent in the summer of 2002).

 

[blogofmike]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Kiprusoff's large home/road split in his stats? I believe it's the largest among goalies in the last 25 years or more.

Career Home: 197-89-37, 2.23 GAA, 0.919 SV%
Career Road: 122-124-34, 2.79 GAA, 0.906 SV%

And his backups, who rarely played, played a substantial portion of Calgary's second half of back to backs on the road. So he was getting an easier selection of road games, if anything.

Does anyone who followed the Flames remember if Kiprusoff was known to be better at home? Or was it the whole team?

Subsequent Calgary goalies haven't had the same pattern to their home/road splits.

Shot in the dark, but was this before west coast teams figured out how to travel east? There might be something in the East/West home/road splits

 

[bobholly39]

Bobrovsky is a weird one. His last two years have pulled the designation of "worst playoff goalie ever" away from him, but his team almost got reverse swept in the Finals. And that would have been the most Bobrovsky out-come of all. Him winning that game seven still feels cosmically wrong on some level. I mean, the guy has single-handedly scared GMs away from giving goalies those long, huge deals. In my eyes, that's his lasting legacy as much as the two Vezinas.

I used to be a huge Bobrosvky critic for playoffs in general, as well as for his performance after contract and the idea of giving a goalie like that such a contract.

But - the past few years have rehabiliated him big time on both fronts.

Reverse sweep? Sure, 'almost'. Does it matter though? If he doesn't steal game 1 (and it was such an amazing game 1 performance), series is completely different. And - he was rock solid in game 7. Sure - it gave Panther fans a lot of stress, but in the end, I rather he be dynamite for games 1 and 7 (and game 2), then just be ~so-so throughout, never stealing a game but never being overly bad. If he had done that - Oilers win the cup in 5 or 6 in my opinion.

As for his contract - I used to be a huge critic, but I definitely am not anymore. Money very well spent, and he's definitely earned his contract. When he started with Florida, he spent 2 years sucking in both regular season and playoffs. But he since has done a lot better in both regular season and playoffs, for almost 3 years straight.

I still don't think career-wise he's a very strong playoff goalie, but it's also no longer a big weakness.

 

[bobholly39]

Lastly, a comment on the 2002 Olympics. I distinctly remember that Pat Quinn's plan was to play Joseph and Brodeur in the first two games, and see how it went from there. Intentionally or not, this was setting Joseph up for failure. Team Canada was disorganized in the first game, and they played a strong, skilled Swedish team (and were trounced). Brodeur played against Germany, a vastly weaker opponent, and the Canadian team was already starting to look more cohesive. I clearly remember thinking, at the time, that Brodeur didn't look any better than Joseph, and the difference in the results was due to the quality of their teammates and opponents. (It was rumoured, but never confirmed, that Quinn playing Brodeur for the remainder of the short tournament created a rift between them, and was responsible for Joseph going to Detroit as a free agent in the summer of 2002).

I remember that too.

Honestly - after Patrick Roy in 1998 (rock-solid performance, even though they lost), and until Carey Price took over in 2014 & 2016 - I feel as though none of the Canadian goaltenders ever truly inspired confiderence.

Brodeur, Joseph, Luongo...they all seemed to struggle some, and seemed as likely to lose their spot then not.

Joseph specifically - I never though he did all that well internationally. He played some games, and he didn't do very bad, but also nothing too memorable. I do like his playoffs a lot - very strong, and very consistent performer. I agree with an earlier post that among all goalies in this round - he's one of the most capable of stealing a playoff game, and this at anytime in his career, not just at his peak.

 

[overpass]

Shot in the dark, but was this before west coast teams figured out how to travel east? There might be something in the East/West home/road splits

It could well have been travel-related. I looked at his road games by time zone. He was at his best in road games in the Mountain time zone, which is where he played his home games.

Road/Pacific time zone: 3.10 GAA, 0.897 SV%
Road/Mountain time zone: 2.41 GAA, 0.918 SV%
Road/Central time zone: 2.63 GAA, 0.906 SV%
Road/Eastern time zone: 2.84 GAA, 0.910 SV%

And he performed worse in road games that, for him, were three consecutive road games or more

1st/2nd road game: 2.63 GAA, 0.912 SV%
3rd+ road game: 3.18 GAA, 0.893 SV%

It's possible other goaltenders have splits in this direction as well, but nobody else in his era had overall home/road splits as large.

Why Kiprusoff in particular? Maybe it's because he played so many regular season games. Maybe he would have had better GAA and SV% numbers with a lower workload. Or maybe he had difficulty maintaining his 3 hour/day stretching routine on the road.

Does it matter? Maybe Kiprusoff was better suited to a playoff hockey travel schedule than the regular season. Maybe he was a better goalie than his regular season averages. Up to you if you want to take that into consideration.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Unfortunately, Michael Farkas and Michael Farkas alone has taken all of the enjoyment out of this project. To the point, where myself and others, and now rmartin65 (a very respected HF member) are not interested in participating.

To piggyback off of rmartin65's comments, I'll go even further to say the language that Farkas uses when talking about goalies he doesn't like or rank high is incredibly disrespectful. And how he chooses to communicate with others here really puts people off. You're not the smartest person here or some authority figure on goalies.

There's zero respect for goalies of the past or ones he doesn't like. Just some of the things I've see Farkas post over the past little bit:

"Tony Esposito was not a very good goaltender." Of course he was a very good goalie. He's top 30 all time... Any goalie even being considered for this list is a very good goaltender, plain and simple.

"Bobrovsky is one of the worst playoff goalies of all time." Bob literally just won the Stanley Cup and carried his team to the final the year before. Won two Vezina's with Columbus. He's an incredible goalie.

"Earl Robertson and Lorne Chabot were very bad goalies." So disrespectful on so many levels, and just not accurate. No respect for the history of the game.

There's many more instances too. Just scroll back through his posts where I've added a "laughing" like to bookmark it.

I'm not surprised by this take.

I opted out before the rankings even started.

I could see that my level of knowledge on the subject was not up to snuff with Mr. Farkas. And Mike can seem rather harsh at times with his responses.

That said, I am still following this project because it's sooo informative. Having a completely different way of evaluating (the Farkas View) makes me consider the position and players that play it in a new way. And other posters are really taking a deep dive into the goalie world.

So, hopefully everyone continues on with the project. Getting down to the bottom of the list should really be a treat. I'm rooting for Cam Talbot and Tim Thomas!

 

[overpass]

Looking at Kiprusoff's performance month by month, there's a case that his heavy workload caused his road performance in particular to struggle.

Looking at his seven seasons from 2005-06 to 2011-12 where he played 70 or more games in each season, Kiprusoff had his largest home/road splits at the beginning and end of the season.

Player	Seasons	Months	Location	W	L	T	GAA	SV%
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	October	Home	24​	13​	4​	2.46​	0.911​
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	October	Road	11​	15​	4​	3.25​	0.892​

Kiprusoff was well known as a slow starter. Later in his career he started to take offseason training more seriously, and his October in 2011-12 was much better than earlier seasons. Looking at the home/road splits, his October performance was particularly poor on the road.

Player	Seasons	Months	Location	W	L	T	GAA	SV%
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Nov-Dec	Home	57​	22​	10​	2.27​	0.915​
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Nov-Dec	Road	39​	33​	7​	2.55​	0.913​

In November and December, Kiprusoff's road performance was much better.

Player	Seasons	Months	Location	W	L	T	GAA	SV%
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Jan-Feb	Home	49​	22​	12​	2.09​	0.925​
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Jan-Feb	Road	31​	21​	13​	2.67​	0.911​

In January and February, his road performance continued around the same level, and his home performance got even better.

Player	Seasons	Months	Location	W	L	T	GAA	SV%
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Mar-Apr	Home	37​	15​	6​	2.16​	0.923​
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Mar-Apr	Road	25​	27​	6​	2.99​	0.902​

And in March/April, his home performance continued to be very good, but his road performance dropped off.

Player	Seasons	Months	Location	W	L	T	GAA	SV%
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Playoff	Home	7​	5​	0​	2.39​	0.920​
Miikka Kiprusoff	05-06 to 11-12	Playoff	Road	2​	11​	0​	3.42​	0.907​

Finally, in the playoffs of these 70+ GP seasons, Kiprusoff's road performance wasn't great. (His road performance in the 2004 playoff, when he wasn't overworked in the regular season, was much better).

I would suggest that Kiprusoff was overworked, which caused his late season performance and playoff performance to suffer. Kiprusoff was also not always in shape to start the season, causing his early performance to suffer. Neither of these are new ideas, I've heard them both before. What I would add is that when he wasn't at his best, it was his road performance in particular that dropped off.

Maybe with 10-15 fewer starts per season from 05-06 to 11-12, he wins 240 games instead of 273 games, but with a save percentage of 0.917 instead of 0.914, or so. And maybe the Flames win an extra game and a playoff round in 2006 or 2008.