HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 7

[Hockey Outsider]

Thanks for posting. This is largely consistent with what I remember. (I would have watched all, or almost all, of these games - not that my memory is infallible 20+ years later).

In 1999, he was excellent in round 1. In round 2 he struggled with peak Jagr (understandable) but was fairly good overall. The conference finals against Buffalo was probably a coin flip had Hasek been healthy. Joseph had a couple of really bad games and only went 1-1 facing off against an inexperienced Dwayne Roloson. Definitely a disappointing end, as this series was winnable. (Regardless, the Leafs would have been trounced by Dallas).

The 2002 summary excludes the 7 game war against the Islanders. That was one of the roughest series of the Dead Puck Era. Joseph was fairly good overall (but he had a couple of bad games). The entire team looked awful in game 1 against Ottawa (the Leafs only had one day to rest while the Sens had a full week - Joseph wasn't good but the entire team was horrendously outplayed). But he was lights out the rest of the way. Joseph held the Sens to 13 goals over the next 6 games (one of which went into triple OT). Keep in mind that Sundin missed the entire series. The Leafs absolutely should have lost, but Joseph won the series for them (and Gary Roberts).

I'll defend Joseph's play in the 2002 conference finals. He was excellent. "Outplayed by Arturs Irbe" isn't a great look, but I didn't see much difference in the actual performance. To the extent Joseph was blamed (and I don't recall much at the time), it was scapegoating. The Leafs big three scorers (Sundin, Mogilny and Roberts) combined for 2 goals and 2 assists in a six game series. The Leafs scored 3 goals in the final 4 games. If I've added this up correctly, they scored 4 goals over the final 355 minutes (0.67 goals per 60). Joseph did everything he realistically could have done. (Once again, the Leafs would have been absolutely trounced in the SC Finals, so the drought would have continued, but the forwards need to take the blame for this one).

Overall, during the Leafs two deep runs, I think Joseph had three excellent series (1999 Flyers, 2002 Sens, 2002 Canes), two good but not great series (1999 Pens, 2002 Isles), and one bad series (1999 Sabres).

A few more thoughts on Joseph (by the way, nobody should be using this as a substantive argument for or against him, I'm just sharing my recollections about these series:

I didn't talk about 2000 and 2001. Both had identical opponents and outcomes - a round 1 win against Ottawa, and a round 2 loss against the Devils.

In 2000, he was very strong against Ottawa. The Leafs finished a few points ahead in the standings, but it was expected to be a close series. He had one bad game but helped the Leafs win games that they probably should have lost (ie winning 1-0 in a game where they were outshot 30-20; winning an elimination game where the Leafs were outshot 38-24).

In the second round, going head to head against Brodeur in his prime, Joseph looked to be his equal. The Leafs lost in six, but they were poorly matched against the Devils, and were badly outplayed the whole round. (This was the infamous "six shots in an elimination game" series). He was the Leafs best player in most of the games (he helped Toronto win 2-1 in a game they were outshot 33-21; he lost 1-0 but held the Devils to only one goal in a game where they outshot the Leafs 33-20; he helped the Leafs win 3-2 in a game where they were outshot 36-22). He wasn't bad in the game six loss (two goals on 26 shots), and besides, what's a goalie going to do when Sergei Berezin singlehandedly takes half of the team's shots in an elimination game?

Joseph was even better in 2001 against Ottawa. This time, the Sens were the clear favourite (on paper - they finished 19 points ahead). Joseph very nearly had three consecutive shutouts (the Sens didn't score on him for the first 177 minutes of the series). Yes, only a four game sample size, but he had this aura of invincibility, very much like Roy on his strongest playoff runs. Stats aren't everything, but it's hard to ask for much more than a 97.6% save percentage and a 0.71 GAA.

The 2001 series against New Jersey was frustrating. The Leafs made it to game seven this time, but once again, they were very much outmatched. This was the worst of the four series I've talked about here, by a wide margin. Joseph was awful in game seven (but the Leafs as a whole were lifeless). He still had a few good games (he posted a shutout to help Toronto win a game they were outshot 32-17). Or there were games where he played well but the matchup was so one-sided I'm not sure if any goalie would have made a difference (keeping the Leafs close in a game that they eventually lost in OT, having been outshot 45-28). Brodeur wasn't very good this series either. I think it's literally true to say that Joseph was Brodeur's equal for the second year in a row (but last year they were both great, and this year they both disappointed). Joseph didn't cost the Leafs, but it's fair to say that he could have stolen the series with a stronger performance.

I know that Joseph's playoff performances get criticized, but he was very good in Toronto. By my count he was great to excellent in six series (1999 vs Flyers, 2000 vs Sens, 2000 vs Devils, 2001 vs Sens, 2002 vs Sens, 2002 vs Canes - not to get too stat heavy but his simple/unweighted save percentage was 94.1% and it's not because I'm cherry picking his wins because he actually lost two of these series). He was solid to good in three series (1999 vs Pens, 2002 vs Isles, 2002 vs Devils - the first two being "good enough to win" and the last one being "wouldn't have made a difference"). The only series that he actively cost them was 1999 vs Buffalo.

Lastly, a comment on the 2002 Olympics. I distinctly remember that Pat Quinn's plan was to play Joseph and Brodeur in the first two games, and see how it went from there. Intentionally or not, this was setting Joseph up for failure. Team Canada was disorganized in the first game, and they played a strong, skilled Swedish team (and were trounced). Brodeur played against Germany, a vastly weaker opponent, and the Canadian team was already starting to look more cohesive. I clearly remember thinking, at the time, that Brodeur didn't look any better than Joseph, and the difference in the results was due to the quality of their teammates and opponents. (It was rumoured, but never confirmed, that Quinn playing Brodeur for the remainder of the short tournament created a rift between them, and was responsible for Joseph going to Detroit as a free agent in the summer of 2002).

 

[blogofmike]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Kiprusoff's large home/road split in his stats? I believe it's the largest among goalies in the last 25 years or more.

Career Home: 197-89-37, 2.23 GAA, 0.919 SV%
Career Road: 122-124-34, 2.79 GAA, 0.906 SV%

And his backups, who rarely played, played a substantial portion of Calgary's second half of back to backs on the road. So he was getting an easier selection of road games, if anything.

Does anyone who followed the Flames remember if Kiprusoff was known to be better at home? Or was it the whole team?

Subsequent Calgary goalies haven't had the same pattern to their home/road splits.

Shot in the dark, but was this before west coast teams figured out how to travel east? There might be something in the East/West home/road splits

 

[bobholly39]

Bobrovsky is a weird one. His last two years have pulled the designation of "worst playoff goalie ever" away from him, but his team almost got reverse swept in the Finals. And that would have been the most Bobrovsky out-come of all. Him winning that game seven still feels cosmically wrong on some level. I mean, the guy has single-handedly scared GMs away from giving goalies those long, huge deals. In my eyes, that's his lasting legacy as much as the two Vezinas.

I used to be a huge Bobrosvky critic for playoffs in general, as well as for his performance after contract and the idea of giving a goalie like that such a contract.

But - the past few years have rehabiliated him big time on both fronts.

Reverse sweep? Sure, 'almost'. Does it matter though? If he doesn't steal game 1 (and it was such an amazing game 1 performance), series is completely different. And - he was rock solid in game 7. Sure - it gave Panther fans a lot of stress, but in the end, I rather he be dynamite for games 1 and 7 (and game 2), then just be ~so-so throughout, never stealing a game but never being overly bad. If he had done that - Oilers win the cup in 5 or 6 in my opinion.

As for his contract - I used to be a huge critic, but I definitely am not anymore. Money very well spent, and he's definitely earned his contract. When he started with Florida, he spent 2 years sucking in both regular season and playoffs. But he since has done a lot better in both regular season and playoffs, for almost 3 years straight.

I still don't think career-wise he's a very strong playoff goalie, but it's also no longer a big weakness.

 

[bobholly39]

Lastly, a comment on the 2002 Olympics. I distinctly remember that Pat Quinn's plan was to play Joseph and Brodeur in the first two games, and see how it went from there. Intentionally or not, this was setting Joseph up for failure. Team Canada was disorganized in the first game, and they played a strong, skilled Swedish team (and were trounced). Brodeur played against Germany, a vastly weaker opponent, and the Canadian team was already starting to look more cohesive. I clearly remember thinking, at the time, that Brodeur didn't look any better than Joseph, and the difference in the results was due to the quality of their teammates and opponents. (It was rumoured, but never confirmed, that Quinn playing Brodeur for the remainder of the short tournament created a rift between them, and was responsible for Joseph going to Detroit as a free agent in the summer of 2002).

I remember that too.

Honestly - after Patrick Roy in 1998 (rock-solid performance, even though they lost), and until Carey Price took over in 2014 & 2016 - I feel as though none of the Canadian goaltenders ever truly inspired confiderence.

Brodeur, Joseph, Luongo...they all seemed to struggle some, and seemed as likely to lose their spot then not.

Joseph specifically - I never though he did all that well internationally. He played some games, and he didn't do very bad, but also nothing too memorable. I do like his playoffs a lot - very strong, and very consistent performer. I agree with an earlier post that among all goalies in this round - he's one of the most capable of stealing a playoff game, and this at anytime in his career, not just at his peak.