Hockey Nation Hierarchy
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Conspiracy Theorist
Registered User
- Jan 30, 2016
- 5,861
- 2,098
Finland has won the most olympic medals since 1988. They could win in 2018 without NHL coming and in 2022 with NHL players.
I'm obviously referring to the post that I originally quoted, in which Finland was lumped together with Switzerland and Slovakia (and the Czech Republic).
Canada
USA/Sweden
Russia
Finland
Czech Republic
Now there is a big gap. Teams above rarely fail to qualify for quarterfinals in both Olympics and WHC.
Slovakia/Switzerland
Denmark
Latvia/Norway/France/Germany
In few years Denmark and Slovaks might switch their spots. Denmark looks like most improved country on the paper but I will wait for some real international succes. France also looks very strong in Paris. If they make QF I might move them one spot higher.
USA/Sweden
Russia
Finland
Czech Republic
Now there is a big gap. Teams above rarely fail to qualify for quarterfinals in both Olympics and WHC.
Slovakia/Switzerland
Denmark
Latvia/Norway/France/Germany
In few years Denmark and Slovaks might switch their spots. Denmark looks like most improved country on the paper but I will wait for some real international succes. France also looks very strong in Paris. If they make QF I might move them one spot higher.
No way SUI and SVK are in the same tier as CZE and FIN. How many quarterfinal appearances do respective teams have in last 5 years in both Olympics and WHC? The gap is very noticeable.
BruinLVGA
Just got me a Beretta 92XI Squalo!
These jinx posts are beautiful. Just beat Canada. How's that for a gap?
(Finland will beat us soundly though: we will be tired physically and mentally, after beating Canada. Then everyone will feel vindicated, don't worry...)
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These jinx posts are beautiful. Just beat Canada. How's that for a gap?
(Finland will beat us soundly though: we will be tired physically and mentally, after beating Canada. Then everyone will feel vindicated, don't worry...)
So what is your view on swiss position? Definition is about winning OGs or World cup. Tier two is about not being surprised when team goes far. We might argue if CZ should be there under this circumstances. But Switzerland going far in OGs would be definetely surprise. You might have good prospects comming but Finnland is again on another level in this aspect. Both CZ and Finnland make WhC QF on regular basis which still looks as an issue for Switzerland.
Mikeyg
Registered User
- Dec 26, 2011
- 8,884
- 2,579
Canada #1 AINEC. Lol at the guy saying Finland will be better by 2022, for every 1 superstar from other countries in the world, there are 2-3 Canadian ones. Canada's best athletes play hockey and not much else, no other countries in terms of size can really compete with that.
It was just a way to reduce the amount of Tiers to keep it at 4 amongst 16 teams. There's plenty of difference in strength between the best and the worst team in the same tier.
Switzerland has 15 players who've played in the NHL this season and only two showed up to this WHC, and they're doing fine. Not a single one of Slovakia's 13 NHL players showed up.
You could create separate Tiers for smaller differences but it'd start to blend the need of making tiers at all. Finland is still clearly a solid Top 6 hockey nation, but the gap in a game between Team Canada "A" vs Finnish "A" is bigger than Finland "A" vs Switzerland "A" and I'd put money on it. Finland doesn't belong on the same Tier as Canada as much as Switzerland doesn't belong on the same Tier as Finland.
Slovaks played a tight, close game vs Finland in 2010 Bronze game, but have fallen off a cliff since 2012. They're kind of a Tier 3 team at this point.
I've forgotten about Belarus' success in recent years... they belong in Tier 3. Only Italy and Slovenia are clear elevator teams.
Lebowski
El Duderino
- Dec 5, 2010
- 17,609
- 5,273
I think the US are getting there... As hockey grows as a sport, they'll end up on top sooner than later.
Just saying that since the mid 90´s both Sweden and Finland have doubled their number of NHL-players (Skaters, n.b.). Swe: 38 96/97 vs 79 16/17 & Fin: 17 96/96 vs 32 16/17.
It can happen for a range of reasons. NHL is looking for european talents more now than before, rather than the quality of these nations have increased this much. But I do think that there have been a significant improvement regarding developing of players in at least Sweden.
Russia on the other hand has gone form a top at 2001/02 at 69 players down to 38 now. It is of course wholly dependent on KHL and not quality.
It can happen for a range of reasons. NHL is looking for european talents more now than before, rather than the quality of these nations have increased this much. But I do think that there have been a significant improvement regarding developing of players in at least Sweden.
Russia on the other hand has gone form a top at 2001/02 at 69 players down to 38 now. It is of course wholly dependent on KHL and not quality.
Canada
USA
Sweden
Russia
Finland
Czech
Switzerland
Slovakia
Germany
Latvia
Denmark
Norway
Slovenia
Belarus
USA
Sweden
Russia
Finland
Czech
Switzerland
Slovakia
Germany
Latvia
Denmark
Norway
Slovenia
Belarus
BruinLVGA
Just got me a Beretta 92XI Squalo!
My position on Switzerland is that it's a team that is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. They could put together a magnificent performance or they could be abysmal. They're either on or off, nothing in between. THAT is the main difference between Switzerland and Czech / Finland: Czechs and Finns are always on, we aren't. In order to be like the Finns or Czechs, we need a constant level of performance. When and IF we achieve that, we will be at the same level. But I don't think it's undeniable that on any given game, we could beat anyone, already as of now.
But the part that the majority of folks from other nations don't seem to notice, somehow, is that slowly but surely, there's more Swiss players getting to play in the NHL. It's a trickle, but it's there. Twenty years ago, there was NOBODY. Back then - or even 10 years ago - who would have thought that in 2017 a Swiss kid could have had a serious chance at getting to be the first overall pick?
The fact that now Switzerland has 4 victories against Canada in the last 11 years between OG (1) + WC (3) when in the previous 30+ years there were NONE (and other close games, like losing in a shoot out in Vancouver 2010 to Canada, 3-2), that we got a silver medal in 2013, is a DIRECT result of the overall rise of quality in our players and league.
The casual observer might not know this, but we went from a team perennially in between group A and B up until the late 90s to silver medalists in 2013 and a team that on any given day can seriously compete (as in win) against anyone. This happened in 15/20 years. In terms of international hockey, where rankings have not had any huge change in the past half a century (I mean, it's always the same 6-7 teams at the top), it's a meteoric rise.
If we continue producing NHL players - and I don't see why not, money and infrastructure is there, it always was a problem of mentality - we can only get better. It will be a long process, because we need to close a gap that was there for 50+ years, but we're in the right direction. That said, I expect ups and downs, because as I said, we tend to have a little mental weakness (of not being as good, always).
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Fumes? Russia has won the Gold Medal at the WHC 4 times in the last 8 years. They have the best record at the WJC over the last 10 years. They have as much claim as the USA or Sweden to be at the very top.
BruinLVGA
Just got me a Beretta 92XI Squalo!
...and Switzerland ends the round robin phase in second place in the group. Points in all 7 games, 5 victories including vs Canada and the Czech Republic... How about that? 
Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,938
- 427
Canada and USA are a toss up nowadays;
So are the memebers of the next tier:Sweden, Russia and Finland.
The third tier is the Czechs tier. And they only.
The rest are pretty much interchangable in the grand scheme of things, trending up and down depending on the trade cycle and state of biz.
So are the memebers of the next tier:Sweden, Russia and Finland.
The third tier is the Czechs tier. And they only.
The rest are pretty much interchangable in the grand scheme of things, trending up and down depending on the trade cycle and state of biz.
Actually real hockey tears are based how good your teams are if you are taking all your best players. Real list looks like this:
1. Canada
2. Sweden, Russia, USA
3. Finland, Czech Republic
4. Switzerland, Germany, Slovakia
This Tournaments it seems to be:
1. Sweden (After Lundqvist/Bäckström)
2. Canada, USA
3. Russia
4. Czech Republic
5. Switzerland
6. Finland, Germany
1. Canada
2. Sweden, Russia, USA
3. Finland, Czech Republic
4. Switzerland, Germany, Slovakia
This Tournaments it seems to be:
1. Sweden (After Lundqvist/Bäckström)
2. Canada, USA
3. Russia
4. Czech Republic
5. Switzerland
6. Finland, Germany
...and Switzerland ends the round robin phase in second place in the group. Points in all 7 games, 5 victories including vs Canada and the Czech Republic... How about that?
Its good. So as if Hirschier is product of system, not just of individual effort, it is also very good sign. Your WHC preformance is so far quite immpressive, especially when you have almost just NLA guys there. So I hope half of that team will go overseas or to KHL after the WHC. Otherwise I dont see reason why they would still stay in NLA. Thats actually one of the biggest difference between SUI and for example CZ and Finnland. These nations have around 50-60 guys in foreign top leagues compare to Switzerland (20 NHL/AHL together?).
BruinLVGA
Just got me a Beretta 92XI Squalo!
Thank you.
If you are truly interested, I can also tell you why I think that there weren't any Swiss drafted players until 20 years ago or so.
In any case, yeah I frankly believe that the development of young talent has progressed substantially in the last 20 years. Talents of Hischier's level don't happen for us, so yeah he is very special, but I think that there will be a small but steady stream of young players coming to the NHL for the time coming. Not to the level of the major nations, but not zero either.
Thank you.
If you are truly interested, I can also tell you why I think that there weren't any Swiss drafted players until 20 years ago or so.
In any case, yeah I frankly believe that the development of young talent has progressed substantially in the last 20 years. Talents of Hischier's level don't happen for us, so yeah he is very special, but I think that there will be a small but steady stream of young players coming to the NHL for the time coming. Not to the level of the major nations, but not zero either.
You are talking in some blury tone for me
So what you expect in terms of drafted players? 5 annual? I might even talked to you about that players abroad before. But what is the reason behind it? Are these guys sure that KHL wouldnt make them better? I am asking about drafted players specifically because I know that Switzerland has been rising since lets say 90s and lot of people predicted you to be somewhere around the top even in early 00s. Then it somehow got frost and you didnt bring so many results until that silver medal. So I am wondering whether something change in swiss hockey (I know you were heavilly NA oriented, maybe this?) that makes you to have such a positive predictions now.
BruinLVGA
Just got me a Beretta 92XI Squalo!
You are talking in some blury tone for me
I am asking about drafted players specifically because I know that Switzerland has been rising since lets say 90s and lot of people predicted you to be somewhere around the top even in early 00s. Then it somehow got frost and you didnt bring so many results until that silver medal. So I am wondering whether something change in swiss hockey (I know you were heavilly NA oriented, maybe this?) that makes you to have such a positive predictions now.
It's just hard work by the federation alongside the teams to develop young players and it is paying off. The fact that there is now a solid foothold of Swiss players in the NHL and North America, highlighted by someone like Josi and with a potential future star like Hischier, is showing the federation, teams and especially the young kids developing that a Swiss player can make it. That's all.
