Historical What If: (Healthy) Aging Bobby Orr through the 1980s

WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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As everyone knows, Bobby Orr did all his damage between 1966-67 and 1974-75, and turned 27 on March 20, 1975. However, his left knee was never the same and following that season appeared in only 36 more games.

In a hypothetical world where Orr's injuries don't have such an effect, Orr is playing in the same league was Gretzky, who is 13 years younger. What is a theoretical aging curve for Orr throughout the 80s, possibly retiring around age 40 (1987-88)? How many more potential Norris trophies? Does he hold off Paul Coffey for DMan scoring lead for a while?
 
His last real season was 1974-75 at 26 years old where he posted 46 goals and 135 point Ross win. At a minimum, I think an Orr that plays into the 80s has 12 Norris wins, a 4th Hart and 3-5 Ross wins.

I don't think he'd have held off Coffey just because of age, he was 35 by the time Coffey broke out. But he would've been over PPG through 30s given how loose the league got.

The bigger butterfly effect is how many Cups do the Bruins prevent the 70s Habs from winning and how many Norris trophies does he block Potvin from winning.
 
I'll use Brad Park as a proxy, since they are only a few months apart in age. Park battled injuries but was still able to put up 58 points on a weak Detroit team in 1984, then 43 points in 67 games while dealing with knee problems in 1985. Considering that Orr was a much better player and just a few months older, I'd expect a healthy but older Orr to do just fine.

In terms of Norris trophies, who knows. At some point they would give Potvin his due and Robinson would probably get at least 1977. Unlike Potvin, Orr was beloved so I'd have to imagine he gets the weird Carlyle Norris, and probably Wilson's too. Langway's Norris trophies are heavy narrative trophies so it's hard to know how Orr impacts them since what they did was so different. By the time Coffey and Bourque are getting Norris trophies it seems too much like fantasy to imagine Orr ahead of them.

I also think it is quite possible that Orr would have retired as the all time leading scorer in NHL history. Not a certainty, but very possible. Healthy Orr would have put up some big scoring totals into the late 1970s and should have been at 80+ points a year for years into the 80s.
 
Turned 28 before the 1976 Canada MVP as a starting point and considering how well defenseman can age.... (1981 team Canada could have used him...)

it would have been hard to score more than Oilers Coffey in 84-85-86, that would have been 35-36-37 years old season for someone that started to play big minutes at 18-19, 48 goals-138 pts 1986 at least we can assume Coffey go with it and with a margin.

He need 980 points after 1975 to reach it (retiring with the most points), if he retire summer of 1988, that's 13 seasons, 75 pts a year could have happened.

Bourque 27 years old until retirement scored 965 points and 4 dpe season in there doing it, probably reach that 980 points mark if scoring stay high.
 
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Turned 28 before the 1976 Canada MVP, considering how well defenseman can age.

it would have been hard to score more than Oilers Coffey in 84-85-86, that would have been 35-36-37 years old season for someone that started to play big minutes at 18-19, 48 goals-138 pts 1986 at least we can assume Coffey go with it and with a margin.

He need 980 points after 1975 to reach it, if he retire summer of 1988, that's 13 seasons, 75 pts a year could have happened.

Bourque 27 until retirement scored 965 points and 4 dpe season in there doing it.
In terms of the career scoring record - Orr averaged 131 points per 80 games for six seasons from 1970 to 1975, and even by 1975 his health was diminishing regardless of leading the NHL in scoring. League scoring was higher in the NHL in the late 70s and early 80s than it was during Orr's prime. If he's healthy, I would conservatively guess he scores something like 120 points per season over the next 4 years or so. That puts Orr at 1350 points heading into the 1979-1980 season at age 31, exactly 500 points shy of where Howe finished. Brad Park had knee problems and he still finished with 280 points from the 1980 season onward. Orr was much better and would have something to chase... I think there is a solid chance for healthy Orr to set the record for a few years before Gretzky obliterates it.
 
Orr's knees were already greatly reduced after 1972. I believe that injury firmly ended his peak. And his 1969 injury slowed him down too.

It really depends what knees you give him. 1975 knees, but with aging? He might win the 1976 Art Ross and 3 or 4 more Norrises. But he would likely never win another Hart. And I don't see the late 70s Bruins competing with the Habs.

If you give him 1972 knees but with ageing, the sky is the limit.
 
I also think it is quite possible that Orr would have retired as the all time leading scorer in NHL history. Not a certainty, but very possible. Healthy Orr would have put up some big scoring totals into the late 1970s and should have been at 80+ points a year for years into the 80s.
That's an interesting one, Gretzky passed Howe on October 15, 1989. So obviously even if Orr does break Howe's total, it's likely viewed even contemporaneously as warming the seat for Gretzky to shatter it. So I don't know what level of glitz and glam would have accompanied it... like if this year, Ovechkin got to 895, but Auston Matthews was already at 800.
 
True the; just for a moment of it would have been a huge shade over the ceremony, but Orr would have been doing it as a defenseman (considered good at defense), making it a bit different (that said, that would be pre Coffee slowing down and Gretzky expecting to break the record would make speculation talk, same for Lemieux first big 168 pts season having just happened)
 
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In my books, Orr (real one, not the hypothetical) is the best ice hockey player of all time.

Healthy ageing Orr would win several Norris trophies and possibly a couple of Harts, finishing top 5 in scoring year after year.
 
That's an interesting one, Gretzky passed Howe on October 15, 1989. So obviously even if Orr does break Howe's total, it's likely viewed even contemporaneously as warming the seat for Gretzky to shatter it. So I don't know what level of glitz and glam would have accompanied it... like if this year, Ovechkin got to 895, but Auston Matthews was already at 800.
I think there is truth to that, but keeping in mind that Orr is a defenceman who managed to outscore Howe, in this scenario, it's inevitably a huge event. The inevitability of Gretzky can be somewhat offset by a defenceman leading the NHL in scoring over six decades into the league's existence. In terms of historic comparisons I'd say that Orr would be the consensus best/greatest ever at the time of retirement, and by the end of Gretzky's career it would be a more interesting comparison.
 
I'll just take a small nibble of this topic, and throw this out there. Let's say it's 1981-82 and the defensive/goaltending climate and talent disparity is what it is. How close does a healthy but declining 33-34 year old Bobby Orr get to 200 points?
 
If we take Dionne and Bossy for a rough reference..

Bossy 70s peak was 126 pts, in 82 it was 147 (+17%)
Dionne 70s peak was 122, 1980 was 137. (+12%)

Orr 70s peak was 139 (in 78 games) a boost similar to them would push him at ~160

Those 2 were younger too (and Dionne took a bit longer to peak) and Orr Bruins in their big year had a bit of a 80-81-82 top offense quality to them already.

If he is not on the Oilers-Islanders I am not sure how much better than those Bruins to score he would have been, teams were not scoring more than 350 really outside them, so I am not sure if he would get a similar level of boost.
 
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I'll just take a small nibble of this topic, and throw this out there. Let's say it's 1981-82 and the defensive/goaltending climate and talent disparity is what it is. How close does a healthy but declining 33-34 year old Bobby Orr get to 200 points?
Nowhere close. When he was at his best, he didnt come close. Esposito, his teammate, was a significantly more talented scorer.
 
I'll just take a small nibble of this topic, and throw this out there. Let's say it's 1981-82 and the defensive/goaltending climate and talent disparity is what it is. How close does a healthy but declining 33-34 year old Bobby Orr get to 200 points?
Dude, let's put down the Kool Aid.

I agree with the suggestion that Orr's real physical peak years (and this, despite earlier injuries / surgeries) passed after 1972. That is, he was never quite the same after that. Of course, he was so good that from 1972-73 through 1974-75 (his last 3 prime seasons), he was still the best player in the League, more or less. 1973 was a down-year for the Bruins after losing roster players to the WHA, and then 1974 was a bounce-back and big year for Espo (B's lost in the Final). 1974-75 is a bit odd. The Bruins were coached by Cherry and dropped a lot of points in the standings, but Orr generally thrived, scoring 135 points (he had more goals than usual), and winning the Art Ross for the second time.

When you break it down, his 1974-75 season isn't quite as great as it appears (it appears superhuman, so this is relative), what with his scoring 16 points in just 5 games vs. hapless Washington, 10 points in 4 games vs. Minnesota, etc. But then again, there were some terrible clubs in the latter-70s and early-80s, too, even if none as bad as Washington back then. In any case, I would argue that his results are more impressive in 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972 than afterwards.

But if we're going as far ahead as 1981-82, it's now nine full years after Orr's physical peak ended, in reality. I just cannot see anyone scoring 200 points that long after their peak... and then we're talking about a defenceman...? Remember that from 1971-72 to 1986-87, not one player in the NHL (except Gretzky) made it 150 points.

On top of all that, even if Orr had stayed in the same state of relative leg-health as in 1974-75, by the early 1980s, even if the game had opened up on one level (mainly due to the WHA collapse and an injection of youthful players), it was also starting to speed up. It wasn't a good time to be an older player. Orr was only 33-34 during this season, but that was old for his peer group. Among skaters who played 40+ games that season, only 11 players were 34 or older.

On top of which, the '82 Bruins scored fewer goals than the '75 Bruins!

Now, as someone noted, Brad Park could still put up 56 points in 1982, which is really good for age 33, so there's no doubt that Orr could have score more than that.

But 200...? Um, no.
 
First thread I ever started on hfboards... please don't bump!


I think I may have undershot. The point about Brad Park (same age) in his age 25 1983-84 season is well-made. I probably got the aging curve close to accurate, but did not account for the overall looser and higher scoring environment of the mid-80s.
 
Not to knock the thought or the work at all, but why use Park? Park was not very mobile for the back half of his career at least, but an excellent outlet passer.

Orr, with legs, was a sensational puck rusher. You look at teenage Phil Housley going point per game with just an ok Buffalo team with an aging superstar.

What if Orr caught on with that Berenson Blues team that opened up barn door in '81 or whatever it was...? They had very little blueline talent, maybe Orr could have blown the doors off there.
 
Not to knock the thought or the work at all, but why use Park? Park was not very mobile for the back half of his career at least, but an excellent outlet passer.

Orr, with legs, was a sensational puck rusher. You look at teenage Phil Housley going point per game with just an ok Buffalo team with an aging superstar.

What if Orr caught on with that Berenson Blues team that opened up barn door in '81 or whatever it was...? They had very little blueline talent, maybe Orr could have blown the doors off there.
Why use Park? Simply to make the point that Orr would have easily outpointed Park just like he did at every age.
 
Orr on the Hawks in the 80s if he still goes there is an interesting premise (Hawks still have the pick used to take Denis Savard because it came from Quebec as a condition to not take back a guy they had previously drafted when Quebec came over from the WHA). Probably not enough to beat the Oilers, but a 30-something Orr the year the Hawks had over 100 points as is makes for a more intriguing matchup.
 
Probably a genuine Art Ross candidate until Gretzky's breakout 200 point season. Wouldn't be surprised to see him teeter between some ppg and 100 point seasons even in his late 30s. Probably breaks Howe's points record, wins another Hart trophy or two, and snags 3 or 4 more Norris Trophies while he's at it. Would've been cool to see him compete with prime Lafleur, Trotts, Dionne and rookie Gretzky for art ross trophies.
Also would've loved to see Gretz, Orr, and Howe all in the 1980 all star game together.
 
3-5 Rosses, 4-7 Harts, 2-4 more cups and I think he'd be the undisputed GOAT by a wide margin that it would be laughable to even suggest a debate. 2500-3000pts as a D man as well (slight reach).

Also, I think there'd be years like 2017 Karlsson where he just carries a team on a sheer will to a cup with disgusting TOI lol. It'd be like 40:00+ minutes when the game is possibly on the line with pivotal stakes. No doubt it would be belt to literal ass for the competition having to possibly go against Prime Orr repeatedly

Orr is the biggest what if in NHL history and it's not even close. It made me cry one time once I learned he was cut short from injuries after discovering him and reading his career :(
 
And also, the fact that lot of greatest legends did all their damage with a wooden stick with zero IPads on the bench + the 2 line pass and the peak levels of ramped up physicality as well is just satisfying and more orgasmic to learn. It makes their aura 10x on a level that a hand few of modern players can dream of for some reason lol. Alot of eras had their trashcans of players, but my point still stands.

Not trying to sound like an oldhead, but these guys were the literal definition of pure raw talent just eviscerating the competition. and it does something to brain just painting the picture in my mind.
 
Not sure if it made it harder or easier, better tool can level up the field and considering you get judged versus how much better you are than others mostly....

Same goes for Bossy and his impressive wrist shot, does the gap between him and the median first liner with a good shot get bigger or smaller with modern many flex to choose from composite stick...

The competition for the Ross, Hart and cup does not necessarily get easier for Orr for him to win more of those after 1975 than before.

The bruins stay a strong team and could win obviously, but from 1976 to 1988 you have to beat the dynastic Habs or Isles or Oilers to do it or time it really well with a year they fumble before you meat them, that 100% of Orr rest of career.

Obviously if he get to play for one of those... that a different story.

One factor for the Hart, does not split vote with Espo anymore (either he leave like in the real world or decline like in the real world).
 

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