Heiskanen vs Pettersson: Better franchise building block

[Canovin]

Pettersson, especially since it is harder to draft a #1C than a #1D IMO.

There are more #1C out there than there is #1D

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

They’re actually the same. One did it against Calgary the other did it against the cup champs.....

One is also a defenceman...

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Carolina won the cup without elite #1D, Pens did it without Letang. It's harder but doable.

But if you don't have someone playing like a 1C in the playoffs you don't win.

So yeah i do prefer C over D as a building block ever so slightly.. For that reason EP.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Two young budding superstars tearing it up when the games count the most. Can’t go wrong with either but I’ll go Pettersson as he’s an elite two way center and that’s just a bit more valuable imo. But no wrong answer here.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I didnt vote here because both are 'equal' building blocks...a 1D, or a 1C..both tremendous players.

 

[John Johnson]

Carolina won the cup without elite #1D, Pens did it without Letang. It's harder but doable.

But if you don't have someone playing like a 1C in the playoffs you don't win.

So yeah i do prefer C over D as a building block ever so slightly.. For that reason EP.

This is a very good point.

 

[Regal]

There are more #1C out there than there is #1D

There's more elite centers, sure, but they also rarely get traded or drafted outside of a top pick in comparison.

 

[nihlify]

Carolina won the cup without elite #1D, Pens did it without Letang. It's harder but doable.

But if you don't have someone playing like a 1C in the playoffs you don't win.

So yeah i do prefer C over D as a building block ever so slightly.. For that reason EP.

That seems a bit like confirmation bias tbh.

 

[Halla]

They’re actually the same. One did it against Calgary the other did it against the cup champs.....

One plays D and has 15pts in 12 games (that crushed what quinn hughes has done by comparison)

 

[Halla]

did kypreos actually suggest pettersson is a top 5 player right now? lol

He isnt even top 20. explains why so many of these hilarious polls have popped up lately

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

That seems a bit like confirmation bias tbh.

How so?

 

[BB88]

Pettersson is an advanced stats monster, which of course doesn't carry certainty on its own, but it correlates well with how he plays the game. He's steadily developing into one of the highest IQ players in the entire league, and is the #1 play driver for the Canucks. His elite vision and reading of the play when combined with his compete level, which allows him to battle way above his weight class, translate to being absurdly strong on both sides of the puck. He's drawing a lot of comparables to Datsyuk in that regard, beyond just their shifty skill that drew their initial comparison in his rookie season.

Including the playoffs, he's already PPG in his second season in the league as a 21 year old, rapidly adjusting to becoming the #1 target of opposing teams shutdown efforts. He's tied with Nathan MacKinnon for the lead in playoff scoring, with MacKinnon himself having a notably dominant postseason himself that are making some question whether he's the 1B to McDavid's 1A (or better, perhaps, if you take into account his dominant high-impact play in the playoffs). And Pettersson racked up these numbers chiefly against a strong, physical, defending champ in St. Louis that took every opportunity to match him with ROR, arguably one of the best top-line matching centers in the league, and otherwise sought to impose their physicality on him to wear him down.

It didn't work.

Against such stiff competition and stifling attention from some of the premier playoff talent in the NHL with a grinding bully style that turned teams to dust last year, Pettersson elevated and had 4 multi-point outings in the past 5 games. Even when you take the Canucks hilariously hot powerplay out of the equation, with him on the ice, the Canucks outscored the blues 8-3 5v5.

He's playing a style that you could almost call "optimal", or at least as close as a hockey player could get analytically, where he's maximizing high% plays nearly all the time and minimizing chances against while maximizing chances for. His RAPM, GAR, and WAR are off the charts, usually up in the top 3-5 in the entire NHL. It's sort of silly to call a PPG 21 year old 1C "underrated" but Pettersson makes a good of a case as any for being just that. It cannot be understated just how disproportionate his impact is on the Canucks vs anyone else not in net, including Hughes.

I understand EP is elite, but so is Heiskanen.
Ainec is wrong answer here.

Heiskanen at 21y is the engine of Dallas team, 3 zone elite player with top tier skating.
Plays in all situations against the best and leads with his play.

Not to take anything away from EP but to say ko easily applies here

 

[BB88]

Carolina won the cup without elite #1D, Pens did it without Letang. It's harder but doable.

But if you don't have someone playing like a 1C in the playoffs you don't win.

So yeah i do prefer C over D as a building block ever so slightly.. For that reason EP.

Pens had Crosby and Malkin, give a team prime Hedman and Karlsson and do they still need a top10C?

Karlsson on his own carried Ottawa to game 7 at the eastern finals against Pens team

 

[JAK]

Pens had Crosby and Malkin, give a team prime Hedman and Karlsson and do they still need a top10C?

Karlsson on his own carried Ottawa to game 7 at the eastern finals against Pens team

Sharks had Burns, Karlsson, Vlasic.

How did that go?

 

[BB88]

Sharks had Burns, Karlsson, Vlasic.

How did that go?

I said prime didn’t I?

San Jose Karlsson is one broken player, Vlasic is also way past his prime

 

[PetterssonSimp]

did kypreos actually suggest pettersson is a top 5 player right now? lol

He isnt even top 20. explains why so many of these hilarious polls have popped up lately

He’s absolutely top 20.

 

[Snauen]

did kypreos actually suggest pettersson is a top 5 player right now? lol

He isnt even top 20. explains why so many of these hilarious polls have popped up lately

The last time I looked Heiskanen was a -3 and Klingberg was ahead of him in ice-time. Think this debate should be over who is really the best D on Team Dallas instead

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Pens had Crosby and Malkin, give a team prime Hedman and Karlsson and do they still need a top10C?

Karlsson on his own carried Ottawa to game 7 at the eastern finals against Pens team

Not a top 10 C but someone who plays like a top line center i'd say yes.

There's been bunch of teams making it deep without legit 1C's but in the end they always seem to lose to teams that have them.

Of course it could happen, but i think it's undeniable that the odds aren't very good.

I mean, look no further than the Blues. Always a good team, never really got that close to getting over the hump before ROR.

So if im building a team from scratch, i want that sorted out first.

 

[BB88]

Not a top 10 C but someone who plays like a top line center i'd say yes.

There's been bunch of teams making it deep without legit 1C's but in the end they always seem to lose to teams that have them.

Of course it could happen, but i think it's undeniable that the odds aren't very good.

I mean, look no further than the Blues. Always a good team, never really got that close to getting over the hump before ROR.

So if im building a team from scratch, i want that sorted out first.

This really didn’t answer my question at all.

Using Pens win with Crosby& Malkin at C without Letant isn’t something other teams should look at too much when building a roster

 

[CraigsList]

Two of my favorite players in the league.

Went with Heiskanen, the kid can log some heavy minutes. Having him on the ice for 26/60 minutes of the game is advantageous.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

This really didn’t answer my question at all.

Using Pens win with Crosby& Malkin at C without Letant isn’t something other teams should look at too much when building a roster

Well i don't understand your question, swap Sid and Geno out and replace them with EK and Hedman? No i don't think they win. Is there something im missing.

I think there's just some things a defenseman can never do vs what a center does. They don't go toe to toe with the opposing center and try to win that matchup. They don't consistently play down low in the hard areas trying to beat people defending. They can't elevate two wingers to play at the top of their game. They can't take big faceoffs.

So yeah i think there's a key difference fundamentally between centers and dmen that makes a C the more valuable position for me.

Of course high-end dmen can do a lot for a team no doubt, but i guess what im saying is i like my chances to win more if i ice prime Kopitar vs Stepan every game while the other team has the best dman in the series rather than the other way around. My defenseman doesn't have to beat the guy on the other end and pull off some incredible stuff to be effective dman.

Regardless, i don't think i ever used the Pens as a model to build a team. Just mentioned how it's been done a couple times without #1D's while the same is yet to be done at least in the cap-era other way around. And while teams haven't necessarily had 2 of the best dmen in the league at the same time, there's been some darn strong d-cores that failed to win.

 

[BB88]

Well i don't understand your question, swap Sid and Geno out and replace them with EK and Hedman? No i don't think they win. Is there something im missing.

I think there's just some things a defenseman can never do vs what a center does. They don't go toe to toe with the opposing center and try to win that matchup. They don't consistently play down low in the hard areas trying to beat people defending. They can't elevate two wingers to play at the top of their game. They can't take big faceoffs.

So yeah i think there's a key difference fundamentally between centers and dmen that makes a C the more valuable position for me.

Of course high-end dmen can do a lot for a team no doubt, but i guess what im saying is i like my chances to win more if i ice prime Kopitar vs Stepan every game while the other team has the best dman in the series rather than the other way around. My defenseman doesn't have to beat the guy on the other end and pull off some incredible stuff to be effective dman.

I really disagree. Just look at how much these top Dmen drive play and the impact they csn have when logging 30minutes a night.

Hedman for 30 and Karlsson playing the other 30 would be nightmare for other teams to match up.
They’d drive the play constantly going against the best while being able to go ppg from the blueline.

You look at Dallas now who doesn’t have a franchise C and Heiskanen driving the play from the blueline, or how Hughes has become such a huge part of Vancouvers blueline and changed their success.

edit, and we are again talking about using Pens winning the Cup without #1D when they had the 2 best C’s in the World against C over Dman.
If they had won it with 1 of them it would mske much more sense

 

[WetcoastOrca]

One plays D and has 15pts in 12 games (that crushed what quinn hughes has done by comparison)

Not getting any bites today. Better try some new bait.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I really disagree. Just look at how much these top Dmen drive play and the impact they csn have when logging 30minutes a night.

Hedman for 30 and Karlsson playing the other 30 would be nightmare for other teams to match up.
They’d drive the play constantly going against the best while being able to go ppg from the blueline.

You look at Dallas now who doesn’t have a franchise C and Heiskanen driving the play from the blueline, or how Hughes has become such a huge part of Vancouvers blueline and changed their success.

edit, and we are again talking about using Pens winning the Cup without #1D when they had the 2 best C’s in the World against C over Dman.
If they had won it with 1 of them it would mske much more sense

I don't disagree with anything you're saying about the importance of those dmen. And you can definitely argue that they can have a higher impact on the game when taking everything into consideration. But like i alluded to before, i think there's some areas in the game with more gamebreaking value up front.

Anyway it's just a funny thing how the C always seem to be such a mandatory piece, just like how we're talking about all these fantastic dmen from different teams and somehow again it's probably the best C left standing winning the cup.

Maybe a team like Vegas can break the trend. They don't really have a guy like Point or MacKinnon. Wild Bill is good but not what i would call a strong #1.

But yeah. Agree to disagree here and that's fine. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong by a different type cup winning team.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The center always become elite when they win the cup. Happened with ROR and MacDonald (lol).

Norris level defensemen are usually worth more unless the center is Crosby which Pettersson is not.