Has New York been the luckiest team these playoffs?

  • PLEASE check any bookmark on all devices. IF you see a link pointing to mandatory.com DELETE it Please use this URL https://forums.hfboards.com/
Status
Not open for further replies.

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,525
10,143
I'm a Hawks fan and couldn't care less who wins this series. I'm rooting for the Oilers if anything but I'm a neutral observer.

I hate this narrative that's been building the last 5 or so years that hockey games are so determined by luck. As if each game is a coin flip. It denigrates the competitive spirit of the sport I love and I think it's completely out of touch with what actually happens out there on the ice.

There's no logic gap in my argument. There are individual moments of luck throughout any single game but over enough time (a 7 game series) the instances of luck even out and the better team wins. The talent of the players, the effectiveness of the team as a whole, the team's coaching, etc...will win out. I'd go as far as to say every single time or damn near every time.

Hockey isn't two teams rolling dice out there, players have to execute. By playing to the level of their abilities that will ultimately either be good enough to beat the other team or it won't but it's not this "coin flip" nonsense.

Nobody is denying that the reality of the sport takes away from the ‘romance’ of the sport.

Hockey is like poker. There’s a lot of things a player can do to put themselves in the best position to win, and thats why lots of familiar faces are usually around the final tables. But at the end of the day, chance and variation weigh in too.

Obviously it's more fun to believe that every game won was due to a clear divide in 'will to win' or skill, or some other human factor we can identify with. It's not particularly realistic in a league that has done everything in it's power to 'flatten' the talent out across all 32 teams and ensure every matchup is between two relatively similarly talented teams, though.

This isnt the 80s, when the best team in the league and the 10th best team in the league may as well have been playing different sports. These days pretty much any playoff matchup is close to a toss-up, with chance deciding the victor in a lot if cases.
 
Last edited:

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,525
10,143
it's not luck when you win the presidents trophy and are in the ECF

maybe you should readjust your ideas of what it is to win or be a good team in the NHL

The Rangers won the President's Trophy and went to the ECF in 2015, and nobody took them seriously as Stanley Cup contenders that year either, for many of the same valid reasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bambamcam4ever

x Tame Impala

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 24, 2011
28,371
13,265
Nobody is denying that the reality of the sport takes away from the ‘romance’ of the sport.

Hockey is like poker. There’s a lot of things a player can do to put themselves in the best position to win, and thats why lots of familiar faces are usually around the final tables. But at the end of the day, chance and variation weigh in too.

Obviously it's more fun to believe that every game won was due to a clear divide in 'will to win' or skill, or some other human factor we can identify with. It's not particularly realistic in a league that has done everything in it's power to 'flatten' the talent out across all 32 teams and ensure every matchup is between two relatively similarly talented teams, though.

This isnt the 80s, when the best team in the league and the 10th best team in the league may as well have been playing different sports. These days pretty much any playoff matchup is close to a toss-up, with chance deciding the victor in a lot if cases.
Can you go into some detail about what stats are being factored in here regarding luck and their predictability powers? What's a comfortable % error/standard deviation between teams when comparing various advanced stats? What specifically are you seeing from the Rangers and subsequently the Panthers as well to determine the Rangers are winning because of luck and the Panthers are unlucky?

Genuinely curious. I don't think I'm being romantic, I'm just watching the games. Certain guys/teams capitalize on their chances and favorable opportunities better than others. Which to me, suggests that as a talent or skill. Believing it's luck really just diminishes the entire sport and it's like we may as well just be simming NHL 24 franchise mode with weighted variables.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,898
7,015
I'm a Hawks fan and couldn't care less who wins this series. I'm rooting for the Oilers if anything but I'm a neutral observer.

I hate this narrative that's been building the last 5 or so years that hockey games are so determined by luck. As if each game is a coin flip. It denigrates the competitive spirit of the sport I love and I think it's completely out of touch with what actually happens out there on the ice.

There's no logic gap in my argument. There are individual moments of luck throughout any single game but over enough time (a 7 game series) the instances of luck even out and the better team wins. The talent of the players, the effectiveness of the team as a whole, the team's coaching, etc...will win out. I'd go as far as to say every single time or damn near every time.

Hockey isn't two teams rolling dice out there, players have to execute. By playing to the level of their abilities that will ultimately either be good enough to beat the other team or it won't but it's not this "coin flip" nonsense.
There is still the gap in logic. You conceded that luck can influence the outcome of a single game. But let's say that two teams are closely matched and push the series to game 7. Wouldn't it then be possible for luck to influence the outcome of a single game (game 7) and therefore the series?
 

x Tame Impala

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 24, 2011
28,371
13,265
There is still the gap in logic. You conceded that luck can influence the outcome of a single game. But let's say that two teams are closely matched and push the series to game 7. Wouldn't it then be possible for luck to influence the outcome of a single game (game 7) and therefore the series?
Can influence =/= DOES influence

It's possible a team loses a game or two because of luck, but over the course of a playoff series that evens out. That is why the series are 7 games long and not shorter. The better team will be creating more opportunities and/or capitalizing on those opportunities more often than the opps over the long run. Over a series and especially over an entire 2 month playoff campaign like the OP is suggesting.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,525
10,143
Can you go into some detail about what stats are being factored in here regarding luck and their predictability powers? What's a comfortable % error/standard deviation between teams when comparing various advanced stats? What specifically are you seeing from the Rangers and subsequently the Panthers as well to determine the Rangers are winning because of luck and the Panthers are unlucky?

Genuinely curious. I don't think I'm being romantic, I'm just watching the games. Certain guys/teams capitalize on their chances and favorable opportunities better than others. Which to me, suggests that as a talent or skill. Believing it's luck really just diminishes the entire sport and it's like we may as well just be simming NHL 24 franchise mode with weighted variables.

I agree with the bolded, and more. Because as the league gets closer and closer, and every matchup becomes closer to a 50/50 toss-up, not only does the moment-to-moment action on the ice seem less important to the outcome, but the off-ice action stuff too.

Once upon a time, a team loading up at the deadline or in the off-season was cause for excitement. A big-name player or a few depth players really felt like it could make a difference. As every matchup becomes a tossup, why should I get excited in the off-season about adding players to my team if, in the end, chance will dictate more than anything the player adds to the team on the ice? In every trade thread and free-agent thread on the Blackhawks board, I SHOULD be saying 'hell yes, lets get the best guy available' but because of the current state of the NHL, I'm invariable 'eh, is it worth it? How much impact can he really have? It seems like an overspend'.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's just kinda the way hockey is now under the current system for a variety of reasons.


As far as your first question, I don't think you can draw much of anything statistically through 3 games. This is obviously a problem, because on average that's roughly half a playoff series. So if, through 3 games, your eye-test is telling you that NYR has cracked Florida and the series is a fete complete, I'm not going to argue with you, because eye-tests are subjective and we may as well be arguing over how to describe the color red to a blind person.

For example, in the last Carolina vs NYR series, through 3 games I saw two evenly matched teams where one team had essentially won 3 coin flips. All those three victories still counted as victories, obviously, I just personally didn't take them as particularly indicative of how the next games would go (that is, I didn't think NYR would win another 1-goal game to sweep Carolina, as if eeking out 1-goal wins by the skin of their teeth was some kind of 'system'). At the end of the day, Carolina was in a hole too deep to dig out of. Even if they were the better team and carried play, they couldnt afford even one bad stretch. And obviously, they had one in game 6. So I would say, 'NYR were lucky to be up 3-0, but they weren't lucky to win one game out of the next 4', if that makes sense.

You mocked 'win-o-meter's earlier, and I agree with you. Each one is a black box with a unique model or algorithm spitting out an outcome. I don't think much of them. Every one of them has their own weighting for events and uncontrollable factors like sh%, their own margins for error and whatnot. I personally like Evolving Hockey's model because I feel it does the best job of weighting for defensive impact while most models weigh offensive impact much heavier. But it's really like finding a stock broker you trust, you gotta look at how their results weigh against the real world (or market) over time and build a belief in how they parse the data and info.

Outside of a model and simply to my eye, I prefer teams that control play, control the puck, and 'make their own luck' by dominating the shots and chances rather than teams that 'capitalize on opportunities'. I've just seen too many teams relying on goaltending, the PP, and 'timely scoring' crash and burn while a team that controlled the puck raised the cup. It doesn't happen every year, obviously, it just happens most years.

If the NYR win the cup this year, it will count just as much as any of the teams I felt didn't benefit as much from 'luck' and I'll be just as happy for NYR fans as I am for the winners of any cup. They neednt care whether their team was lucky or not, and neither will history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HolyHagelin

Profet

Longtime lurker
Sponsor
Jul 5, 2002
7,115
10,104
NY
shop.profetkeyboards.com
Outside of a model and simply to my eye, I prefer teams that control play, control the puck, and 'make their own luck' by dominating the shots and chances rather than teams that 'capitalize on opportunities'. I've just seen too many teams relying on goaltending, the PP, and 'timely scoring' crash and burn while a team that controlled the puck raised the cup. It doesn't happen every year, obviously, it just happens most years.
The bold is where people get confused.

Dominating shots is not the same as dominating chances.

The Rangers seldom dominate shots. They frequently dominate chances.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HolyHagelin

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,525
10,143
The bold is where people get confused.

Dominating shots is not the same as dominating chances.

The Rangers seldom dominate shots. They frequently dominate chances.

Do they?

By what model or source?

These days it's difficult to find a source that parses 'scoring chances' or 'high danger chances' outside of their xGF model.

Natural Stat Trick does break them out and has the Rangers under-water on chance share in every series. For example, through 3 games, they have only 44% of the scoring chances, while Florida has 56%.

Granted, in terms of the WSH series, that's because NYR lead most of the time, so score effects jacked up the shots and chances against.
 

Despote

Registered User
Mar 21, 2023
1,358
2,841
Do they?

By what model or source?

These days it's difficult to find a source that parses 'scoring chances' or 'high danger chances' outside of their xGF model.

Natural Stat Trick does break them out and has the Rangers under-water on chance share in every series. For example, through 3 games, they have only 44% of the scoring chances, while Florida has 56%.

Granted, in terms of the WSH series, that's because NYR lead most of the time, so score effects jacked up the shots and chances against.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,525
10,143

By these numbers, 'slight edge' seems like an overstatement.

I haven't been a big fan of Mike Kelly since he claimed the 2014 Avalanche were making systemic choices that increased their PDO.... and then went silent when the Avalanche crashed like a plane with no wings.

And then Colorado came back as a force in the league with a massively upgraded analytics department that included new-hire twitter user and hockeygraphs contributor DTMAboutHeart, one of Kelly's biggest critics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Gr8 Dane

Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
147,012
124,242
NYC
In nine games against Carolina and Florida, the Rangers have won the xG battle according to NST 4 times and lost it 5 times.

And one of the games they "lost" in xG was game 4 in Carolina, and I can't fathom how NST came to that conclusion. I thought game 4 in Carolina was our best performance of the playoffs.

We're not exactly drowning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HolyHagelin

Machinehead

HFNYR MVP
Jan 21, 2011
147,012
124,242
NYC
By these numbers, 'slight edge' seems like an overstatement.
Mike Kelly: *Describes 21.0 to 20.1 as a "slight edge"*

JaegerDice:
12.jpg
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
24,281
11,352
Has New York has been the luckiest team these playoffs? No disrespect this is a hell of team that finds ways to capitalize on their chances but let’s be honest with all the OT wins they’ve been very lucky. Just like Florida last year.
Sure maybe but teams create their own luck and it doesn't happen for 16 games either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jack Hanson

Profet

Longtime lurker
Sponsor
Jul 5, 2002
7,115
10,104
NY
shop.profetkeyboards.com
Do they?

By what model or source?

These days it's difficult to find a source that parses 'scoring chances' or 'high danger chances' outside of their xGF model.

Natural Stat Trick does break them out and has the Rangers under-water on chance share in every series. For example, through 3 games, they have only 44% of the scoring chances, while Florida has 56%.

Granted, in terms of the WSH series, that's because NYR lead most of the time, so score effects jacked up the shots and chances against.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bacon Artemi Bravo

Rschmitz

Finding new ways to cheat
Feb 27, 2002
16,705
9,332
Tampa Bay
Anyone else notice the hypocrisy of a Florida fan calling the Rangers lucky?

I think Florida is the best team left in the postseason, but they are still lucky as hell too
 

Peltz

Registered User
Oct 4, 2019
3,657
5,088
They were definitely lucky tonight, but I remember hearing the same stuff with Henrik too... a goalie can absolutely level the ice even when possession is tilted to the other team. (Source: 2014 Eastern Conference Semifinals Game 7)

I remember that game. Hank was the team.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad