nowhereman
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What?!
OV's been good this year but you can't throw him in with the best two-way players in the history of the game. Yes, he's improved... but that just means his defense has gone from deplorable to passable.
Has Anyone Not Named Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr ever dominated a year like Sakic?
- Thread starter Voight
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OV's been good this year but you can't throw him in with the best two-way players in the history of the game. Yes, he's improved... but that just means his defense has gone from deplorable to passable.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Just last season
Crosby
Art Ross (104 points) 17 point win
Hart (landslide win)
Lindsay
First team all star
1st in assists
1st in ppg 1.30 to 1.20
Crosby
Art Ross (104 points) 17 point win
Hart (landslide win)
Lindsay
First team all star
1st in assists
1st in ppg 1.30 to 1.20
Voight
#winning
It was a good season but doesn't come close to Sakics. He wasn't top 5 in goals or top 5 in Selke voting. Plus Gretzky had a horrible down/regressed year and Mario didn't play, so his chances for the award became a lot better. Sakic had a lot of competition for the award when he won it.
When did Mess or Leech do better than Sakic did that year? Fedora yea you could argue he was better but Mess and Leech I don't see an argument for. Give me one tho and I will reconsider.
livewell68
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This isn't even the most dominant season post-2005 let alone to be included in this discussion. I can name Jagr and Thornton in 2005-06, Ovechkin in 2007-08 or Malkin in 2011-12 as better post-2005 seasons.
b in vancouver
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Are you talking dominant compared to your peers? Because that takes out most orrs, gretzkys and lemieuxs careers, or are you talking about amazing season?
Example... Phil Esposito had a couple of years that Sakic couldn't dream of but Bobby Orr was also in the league.
Robinson, bourque, lafleur, jägr, Clarke, bossy, trottier, pronger, Crosby, ovechkin, hull, lindros, etc.
I'm not even sure that he had the best year on his team during that time period - forberg
Example... Phil Esposito had a couple of years that Sakic couldn't dream of but Bobby Orr was also in the league.
Robinson, bourque, lafleur, jägr, Clarke, bossy, trottier, pronger, Crosby, ovechkin, hull, lindros, etc.
I'm not even sure that he had the best year on his team during that time period - forberg
Nathaniel Skywalker
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I would love to here the arguement for jagr 2005-06. A guy who came second in points over a guy who won by 17 points.
Kakko
Formerly Chytil
Thornton - 125
Jagr - 123
Ovechkin - 106
Hint: That's 17 points too
Just because there was a second dominant player doesn't discredit Jagr
Forsberg never had a season as good as Sakic's in 00-01. 02-03 was obviously great, but he scored 25 fewer goals, 12 fewer points, played 7 fewer games, still had a lower PPG (1.41 vs. 1.43), placed lower in Selke voting (4th vs. 2nd, but I really don't take much heart into either of their Selke considerations in the first place...), all in an almost identical scoring environment (there were actually 3 100+ point scorers in 02-03 compared to 2 in 00-01).
You can argue that Forsberg at his best was better than Sakic at his best, but you really can't argue he had a better best season than Sakic did.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Jagr got outscored though
Crosby 1st in points by 17 vs Jagr 2nd in points 17 above 3rd place
Crosby 1st in hart voting vs Jagr 2!: in hart voting
Crosby Lindsay vs jagr Lindsay
Crosby 1st in assists vs jagr 3rd in assists
Crosby 7th in goals vs jagr 2nd in goals
So crosby was clearly most dominated as he was the undisputed best player and jagr was not. As he didn't lead a single category.
I agree, and to show the similar situation in 2000-2001 with regards to Sakic:
Jagr - 121
Sakic - 118
Elias - 96
and in goals (to a much lesser extent):
Bure - 59
Sakic - 54
Jagr - 52
Bondra - 45
9 other players scoring between 40-45 goals
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Quid Pro Clowe
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Here let me make it blatantly obvious since you're being facetious:
2009 - 113 Points Malkin
2010 - 112 Points H. Sedin
2011 - 104 Points D. Sedin
2012 - 109 Points Malkin
2013 (prorated) - 102.5 Points St. Louis
2014 - 104 Points Crosby
Should I believe that Crosby's 2014 season is better than Malkin's 2012 season just because his margin of victory was bigger?
1998 - 102 Points Jagr
1999 - 127 Points Jagr
2000 - 96 Points Jagr (only 63 GP)
2001 - 121 Points Jagr (118 Points Sakic)
2002 - 96 Points Iginla
2003 - 106 Points Forsberg
2004 - 94 Points St. Louis
By the same standard you are currently using, Sakic's 00-01 was worse than Iginla, Forsberg, and St. Louis in the following 3 years respectively because they led in points and Sakic didn't.
Similarly, Yzerman with 155 points in 88-89 was pedestrian because Mario outscored him by ~30% that season with 199 points.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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livewell68
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Jagr was dominant.
Crosby also didn't have the same competition.
Jagr outscored Ovechkin by 17, there is a difference between outscoring Ovechkin by 17 and Getzlaf by 17.
Most of the great players actually were healthy in 2005-06 as opposed to having Malkin, Stamkos and Tavares miss a bunch of games last season.
Oh BTW, Jagr's 123 Pts in 2005-06 is adjusted to 120 Pts, Crosby's 104 Pts in 2013-14 is adjusted to 116 Pts.
Jagr had 3 more assists and a whopping 18 more goals playing for the Rangers, not the loaded Penguins. Jagr won his team's scoring title by 44 Pts, Crosby won his by 32 Pts over Malkin who missed 20 more games. Kunitz also had 35 goals, one less than Crosby. Jagr outscored his team's second best goalscorer by 24 goals (remember Prucha by any chance?
)As for Crosby leading the league in points or assists, Jagr won 5 Art Ross trophies and led the league in assists 3 times, next.
There have been about 20 seasons better than Crosby's just in the last 45 years alone.
Messier during his 2 Hart winning seasons.
Fedorov 1993-94
Gilmour 1992-93
Any of Hasek's 6 Vezina wins
Any of Jagr's Art Ross wins along with his 1995-96 and 2005-06 seasons.
Sakic in 2000-01
Ovechkin in 2007-08 or 2009-10
Malkin in 2011-12
Bernie Parent
Potvin
Bourque
Clarke
Trottier
Yzerman in 1988-89
Pronger in 1999-00
Forsberg in 2002-03.
I can go on.
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So then dominant is literally restricted to just the confines of one regular season.
In 2014 Crosby was dominant.
In 1988-1989 Yzerman and Gretzky were better (than Crosby in 2014)..... but not dominant.
Somebody please explain this one to me.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Jagr was dominant.
Crosby also didn't have the same competition.
Jagr outscored Ovechkin by 17, there is a difference between outscoring Ovechkin by 17 and Getzlaf by 17.
Most of the great players actually were healthy in 2005-06 as opposed to having Malkin, Stamkos and Tavares miss a bunch of games last season.
Oh BTW, Jagr's 123 Pts in 2005-06 is adjusted to 120 Pts, Crosby's 104 Pts in 2013-14 is adjusted to 116 Pts.
Jagr had 3 more assists and a whopping 18 more goals playing for the Rangers, not the loaded Penguins. Jagr won his team's scoring title by 44 Pts, Crosby won his by 32 Pts over Malkin who missed 20 more games. Kunitz also had 35 goals, one less than Crosby. Jagr outscored his team's second best goalscorer by 24 goals (remember Prucha by any chance?
As for Crosby leading the league in points or assists, Jagr won 5 Art Ross trophies and led the league in assists 3 times, next.
1. Jagr outscored a rookie 20 year old ovechkin by 17. Crosby outscored a seasoned 28 year old reigning hart and Richard winning ovechkin by 25 points
Here's the top 3 scores in 05-06 if everyone plays to their paces in 82 games since you want to use injures as an excuse
Thornton 126
Jagr 123
Ovechkin 106
Now the same for 13-14
Crosby 107
Malkin 98
Stamkos 97
As you can see regardless of what you say crosby is statistically more dominating. Beating a prime Malkin by 9 points is more impressive than losing to a prime thornton and beating a rookie ovechkin by 17 points
Next
livewell68
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Ovechkin was nowhere near his best, it's quite possible that despite winning the Richard in 2013-14 that it might be Ovechkin's worst season in the NHL to date. Even worse than when he was below PPG for one year.
Ageless stop, even the biggest Crosby homers know that Crosby's 2013-14 is nowhere near as dominant as it seems.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Now your grasping at straws. His worst season no.
Here's a breakdown
Crosby
1st in points
1st in assists
1st in hart voting
1st in Lindsay voting
1st in ppg
1st in apg
7th in goals
Vs
Jagr
2nd in points
3rd in assists
2nd in hart voting
1st in Lindsay voting
2nd in ppg
4th in apg
2nd in goals
There is no statistical argument for jagr being more dominant none.
livewell68
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Reread. This was Ovechkin's worst season, you were claiming that Crosby beat a prime Ovechkin by 25.
Ovechkin was 100% better in 2005-06 than he was in 2013-14.
livewell68
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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51 goals vs 56 goals in a much lower scoring season. Point stands ovechkin was the reigning MVP while in 06 he was a rookie
Nathaniel Skywalker
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livewell68
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Ovechkin was 3rd in scoring and won the Calder in 2005-06, was a Pearson Finalist, he was a 1st Team All-Star.
What Ovechkin did in 2012=13 has absolutely no baring on his 2013-14 season, he could have scored 200 Pts in 2012-13 it doesn't matter.
Ovechkin was not a better player in 2013-14 than he was in 2005-06. No matter how much you argue, no one will take you seriously on this argument.
livewell68
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Malkin played 60 games.
Thornton was also the best playmaker in the NHL in 2005-06 and 2006-07.
