blundluntman
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Hart Trophy Tournament (1969-00) Round 1: 1981 Wayne Gretzky vs 1987 Wayne Gretzky
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blundluntman
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While this one seems at first to be glaringly in favor of 87 Gretzky, I do think the 81 season is much stronger than it looks in comparison. While it's virtually the same top end talent on the roster in both years, Gretzky made the leap far before his other teammates despite being the same age. In 81, Gretzky had 164 points, the next closest teammate was Kurri with 75 points in 75 games. Messier had 63 in 72, Coffey had 32 in 74, and Glenn Anderson had 53 in 58. In 87, Kurri and Messier were both 100 point players while Tikannen and Anderson hovered around a ppg; Coffey was traded to Pittsburgh that season but was a much better player than in 81 in the 60 games he played. Gretzky was doing a lot more heavy lifting in 81.
I did a thread in the HoH board not too long ago about what Gretzky's rise was like before breaking through and hitting 200 points and it seems he really hit full stride in the 2nd half of that 81 season where he started producing at a 200 point level. From Jan 1st to the end of the season, he had 108 points in 45 games.
I'm going with 81 here but I'm open to hearing the case for 87
I did a thread in the HoH board not too long ago about what Gretzky's rise was like before breaking through and hitting 200 points and it seems he really hit full stride in the 2nd half of that 81 season where he started producing at a 200 point level. From Jan 1st to the end of the season, he had 108 points in 45 games.
I'm going with 81 here but I'm open to hearing the case for 87
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
He scored more goals, assists and points in '87 than in '81 and '87 was a considerably lower scoring season League-wide compared to '81.
On the flip-side, he had worse linemate and teammate support in '81. Is that enough to make the season better?
On the flip-side, he had worse linemate and teammate support in '81. Is that enough to make the season better?
blundluntman
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Yeah there are a lot of contextual things that make it hard to really tell which season was better. After doing quite a bit of digging, I have to say the gap in quality between Gretzky's competition vs his teammates gives his 81 Season the edge.
81 had Mike Bossy, Marcel Dionne, Kent Nilsson, Peter Stastny and Bryan Trottier, all still in their primes and Gretzky was lapping them with very little help.
87 was more of a down-year. There was a 21 year old Mario, Gilmour, Hawerchuk, Ciccarelli, Goulet, and a 21 year old Yzerman to compete with. Mario and Yzerman were both a year or two away from entering their primes; and while guys like Gilmour, Hawerchuk and Goulet were no slouches, I wouldn't compare them to the 81 forward group. Gretzky had more to work with and less to work against that year
I also noticed 87 and 81 weren't actually all too far apart when you looked at the top 50 players ppg wise.
# of 1981 Players with 1.00 ppg: 40
# of 1987 Players with 1.00 ppg: 36
# of 1981 Players above 1.25 ppg (100 point pace): 15
# of 1987 Players above 1.25 ppg (100 Point pace): 11
The major dropoff occurred around the 120 point mark (1.50 ppg) where there were only 2 in 1987 and 7 in 1981. You start to see the gap in top-end competition at this point. 1981 was comprised of players like Dionne, Bossy, and Nilsson (3 of the other guys are teammates of Dionne and Nilsson).
Taking a look at Gretzky's game logs for both seasons, they also seemed to trend in opposite directions. Gretzky played at a 200 point pace in 87 until Coffey was traded. After that he finished with 36 points in 20 games. In 81 he played at the same level as 1980 until the new year when he finished the rest of the season at a 200 point pace. He played at a higher level longer in 87 but he hit the same peak in 81 in a more self sufficient fashion. I'd say 81 Gretzky was better at his best given the lack of help he had vs 87. How much of his 87 play you wanna attribute to Coffey's presence (along with a prime Kurri) and the lower level of top end talent is hard to say but it makes me think he was slightly better in 81.
Video Nasty
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Voted for 86-87.
He was older. He led in both goals and assists. Led in EV and SH goals. Wider margin of victory against the league, even if Mario played more than 63 games (of course I love that he outscored his next two closest teammates combined by 26 points in 1980-1981). I’ve always been impressed most by the season to season context. It was his 8th consecutive Hart and 7th consecutive Art Ross (all eight years led in points and PPG). He just kept going and going.
Even if the stats across the board weren’t better (thought they are), the fact that he routinely did this for eight years with the grind of the regular season, long postseason runs, and competing against himself, makes this eighth year wildly impressive.
He was older. He led in both goals and assists. Led in EV and SH goals. Wider margin of victory against the league, even if Mario played more than 63 games (of course I love that he outscored his next two closest teammates combined by 26 points in 1980-1981). I’ve always been impressed most by the season to season context. It was his 8th consecutive Hart and 7th consecutive Art Ross (all eight years led in points and PPG). He just kept going and going.
Even if the stats across the board weren’t better (thought they are), the fact that he routinely did this for eight years with the grind of the regular season, long postseason runs, and competing against himself, makes this eighth year wildly impressive.
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Staniowski
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'87 Gretzky was certainly better. 25-year-old Gretzky was better than 19-year-old Gretzky.
He was great early in his career, but he still improved significantly over the years.
The NHL was a lot stronger in 1987 than it was in 1981.
He was great early in his career, but he still improved significantly over the years.
The NHL was a lot stronger in 1987 than it was in 1981.
JackSlater
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I'd say that 1987 is the better season, but 1981 Gretzky was clearly more valuable to his team. Sort of mirror seasons in that 1981 was Gretzky ramping up to his peak while 1987 was Gretzky starting to come down from it. 1987 Gretzky was clearly the better player and by that point, having decimated the record books but lost the previous Stanley Cup, was saving a bit for the playoffs.
TheGuiminator
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Gretzky was better and more mature in 1987, but he brought slightly more value to his team in 1981, which is essentially what the Hart Trophy is for.
It's close, but I voted for 1981.
It's close, but I voted for 1981.
