Gretzky’s PPG average against Wales Conference vs Campbell Conference teams in the 1980s
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Hockey Outsider
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It's available on hockey-reference.com, season by season. For example: Wayne Gretzky 1981-82 Splits | Hockey-Reference.com
MadLuke
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in 81-82, his first 200 pts season
2.375 ppg against the Flames, Rockies, kings, canucks, 31 goals, 45 assists, 76 pts in 31 games.
2.833 pts against the rest of the league, 61g-75 assists in 48 games. If my excel table was not wrong.
edit: just saw the HR link seem to have made just a small mistake (31 vs 32 games) but used a terrible way to do this...
2.375 ppg against the Flames, Rockies, kings, canucks, 31 goals, 45 assists, 76 pts in 31 games.
2.833 pts against the rest of the league, 61g-75 assists in 48 games. If my excel table was not wrong.
edit: just saw the HR link seem to have made just a small mistake (31 vs 32 games) but used a terrible way to do this...
Crosby2010
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So I'll go the next year. 1983. Gretzky vs. Smythe division: 73 points in 32 games (2.28 PPG)
The rest of the NHL teams: 123 points in 48 games (2.56 PPG)
1984:
Smythe division: 88 points in 31 games (2.83 PPG)
Rest of NHL teams: 117 points in 43 games (2.72 PPG)
1985:
Smythe division: 78 points in 32 games (2.43 PPG)
The rest of the NHL: 130 points in 38 games (3.42 PPG)
Okay, so you can see the point by now. No matter how much of a deep dive you take with Gretzky, you always come out appreciating him even MORE. There is no way the Smythe division was an advantage. Calgary was always a tough out. He just peeled through every team like a hot knife through butter. Just looking at how he did vs. teams in 1985 it is Montreal that held him in check the best with 4 points in 3 games. Rangers with 5 points in 3 games. Then in 1986 8 points in the 3 games vs. Montreal. Surprisingly just 5 in 3 games vs. the Rangers. However, just before I said that the Rangers had his number, I looked at the surrounding years. Yeah, they didn't either.
The rest of the NHL teams: 123 points in 48 games (2.56 PPG)
1984:
Smythe division: 88 points in 31 games (2.83 PPG)
Rest of NHL teams: 117 points in 43 games (2.72 PPG)
1985:
Smythe division: 78 points in 32 games (2.43 PPG)
The rest of the NHL: 130 points in 38 games (3.42 PPG)
Okay, so you can see the point by now. No matter how much of a deep dive you take with Gretzky, you always come out appreciating him even MORE. There is no way the Smythe division was an advantage. Calgary was always a tough out. He just peeled through every team like a hot knife through butter. Just looking at how he did vs. teams in 1985 it is Montreal that held him in check the best with 4 points in 3 games. Rangers with 5 points in 3 games. Then in 1986 8 points in the 3 games vs. Montreal. Surprisingly just 5 in 3 games vs. the Rangers. However, just before I said that the Rangers had his number, I looked at the surrounding years. Yeah, they didn't either.
MadLuke
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Well just turn it around now, people that played him often during the year, understood his trick better and were able to limit him to terrible 2.35-2.8 ppg peasant pace..
Crosby2010
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Speaking more about a deep dive into Gretzky's career. No matter what, I always comes out more shocked than I went in.
49 points in 14 games in November of 1983. If there is a calendar month that is better than that I'd like to see it. 3.5 PPG in that month. Jaw dropped.
Mario had 38 points in 11 games in October of 1988 for 3.45 PPG. I always thought that was the best one. It isn't somehow.
Gretzky also has one of the most shockingly obscure stats from 1983. Points in a loss. He had 42 points in 21 losses. Oh come on!
49 points in 14 games in November of 1983. If there is a calendar month that is better than that I'd like to see it. 3.5 PPG in that month. Jaw dropped.
Mario had 38 points in 11 games in October of 1988 for 3.45 PPG. I always thought that was the best one. It isn't somehow.
Gretzky also has one of the most shockingly obscure stats from 1983. Points in a loss. He had 42 points in 21 losses. Oh come on!
Hockey Outsider
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In all of NHL history, there have only been three seasons where a player scored at least 1.70 PPG in losses, with a minimum of ten games. Gretzky has all three of those seasons (1983, 1986, and 1988).
Lowering it somewhat to 1.60 PPG, Gretzky has five of the top eight years (with one reach from Joe Malone, Cy Denneny, and Mario Lemieux).
The Panther
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I think more amazing to me than the 49 points in a single calendar month is that Wayne went +32 during that same month.
+32 in one month!! 41 of the 49 points were not on the power-play (38 at ES). To put that into perspective: If Wayne had played only in November, out of the entire season, his ES points would still have been higher than Daryl Sittler's, Phil Housley's, Mark Howe's, Dennis Maruk's, or Kent Nilsson's was for the entire season.
To start the next season, Wayme was +26 in just ten games (!) in October 1984.
The smythe division wasn't that weak compared to the rest of the NHL in the 80s.
I would say the adams division was the best from to bottom, until maybe the whalers and nordiques fell apart.
The patrick had the Islanders and flyers, and the caps had good team defense but that division was pretty weak overall. I've seen people cope about this a lot, but for most of the 80s the penguins and devils were winning like 18 games a year. Then the rangers were also pretty bad.
The Norris was awful but the games were hilarious to watch, because every team carried like 6 goons.
Adams > Smythe > Patrick > Norris, for most of the 80s. From top to bottom of course, I would say the Smythe surpassed the adams in 88 or 89, when the canucks started getting better and the flames became contenders every year. Aswell as the kings getting way better with Gretzky.
I would say the adams division was the best from to bottom, until maybe the whalers and nordiques fell apart.
The patrick had the Islanders and flyers, and the caps had good team defense but that division was pretty weak overall. I've seen people cope about this a lot, but for most of the 80s the penguins and devils were winning like 18 games a year. Then the rangers were also pretty bad.
The Norris was awful but the games were hilarious to watch, because every team carried like 6 goons.
Adams > Smythe > Patrick > Norris, for most of the 80s. From top to bottom of course, I would say the Smythe surpassed the adams in 88 or 89, when the canucks started getting better and the flames became contenders every year. Aswell as the kings getting way better with Gretzky.
Is that a good thing? Obviously 1.7ppg in itself is great, but is it better to still score a lot in losses, or show a trend where when u score up to a certain point it's the difference between a win and a loss?
I guess it depends how you look at it.
MadLuke
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In those season in wins Gretzky ppg was way higher, I would say that it would be a bit suspicious if there is no correlation between scoring a lot for a score and winning (it could be that he slow down when they have the lead and otherwise, like some big scoring effect going on and It's totally fine, could be that it is just taking more risk in exchange for scoring, it could be that scoring in the sport is useless)
The Panther
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I was stunned a few years ago when someone pointed out (I think I have this right -- someone correct me if I'm wrong) that during the Oilers' 9 seasons with Gretzky (in the line-up), they won a grand total of TWO games on the road when Wayne was held pointless.
Thank you very much to everyone for the deep dive and all the info! This is great, and some bonus knowledge to boot! The 49 points and a +32 in only 14 games in November, 1983 is ludicrous lol. Anyway, this is great ammunition against those who say his point totals were because of hie "weak division". The one that really shocked me was this stat by Crosby2010:
1985:
Smythe division: 78 points in 32 games (2.43 PPG)
The rest of the NHL: 130 points in 38 games (3.42 PPG)
Is it real? 130 points in only 38 games for 3.42 PPG?
1985:
Smythe division: 78 points in 32 games (2.43 PPG)
The rest of the NHL: 130 points in 38 games (3.42 PPG)
Is it real? 130 points in only 38 games for 3.42 PPG?
The Panther
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Gretzky's prime period (sorry to get nerdy about it) is January 1981 (middle of Oilers' 2nd season) through September 1991 (ending at Canada Cup), a period of 10.5 NHL seasons.
During this period, this is what his NHL regular season stats are:
811 GP: 650G + 1299A = 1949PTS (+598)
That is to say, during this 10.5 seasons, Gretzky scored more points than any other player ever has, in anyone's entire career.
Breaking this 10.5 seasons down to one 82-game season on average, it looks like this:
82GP: 66G + 131A = 197 PTS (+60)
The Hockey-Reference "adjusted stats" system for this period would probably adjust that down to something like:
82GP: 56G + 112A = 168 PTS
So, in today's perspective, it's kind of like McDavid's 2023 season if he'd scored about 15 more points... and then done that season for 10.5 consecutive seasons without cessation.
Also, during those 10.5 seasons that were his prime, here's how Wayne did vs. certain clubs:
vs. Detroit:
32GP: 26G + 77A = 103PTS (+63)
3.22 PPG
vs. Quebec:
31GP: 30G + 69A = 99PTS (+44)
3.19 PPG
vs. Minnesota:
32GP: 36G + 54A = 90PTS (+33)
2.81 PPG
vs. Los Angeles (only 1981 to 1988):
57GP: 49G + 106A = 155PTS (+56)
2.72 PPG
vs. Toronto
36GP: 37G + 49A = 86PTS (+34)
2.69 PPG
vs. Pittsburgh
31GP: 27G + 52A = 79PTS (+34)
2.55 PPG
vs. Chicago
31GP: 22G + 55A = 77PTS (+17)
2.48 PPG
vs. St. Louis
31GP: 33G + 44A = 77PTS (+18)
2.48 PPG
vs. Winnipeg:
73GP: 64G + 117A = 181PTS (+76)
2.48 PPG
vs. Philadelphia
29GP: 28G + 41A = 69PTS (+20)
2.38 PPG
vs. Vancouver
80GP: 60G + 130A = 190PTS (+73)
2.38 PPG
___________________________
This is how he did against some of the better defensive clubs (besides Philly) in this era:
vs. Washington
29GP: 23G + 43A = 66PTS (+11)
2.28 PPG
vs. Montreal
31GP: 16G + 46A = 57PTS (+9)
2.00 PPG
vs. Boston
31GP: 17G + 33A = 50PTS (-1)
1.61PPG
Those Boston stats really stand out! I'm not sure how much to read into those, however. My memory is that Edmonton (and maybe L.A., too) would tend to play Montreal and Boston at the end of eastern road-trips, often playing in Montreal the night after playing in Quebec and Boston the night after Hartford / wherever. And for most of this period, Wayne only faced those clubs 3 times per season (or less).
During this period, this is what his NHL regular season stats are:
811 GP: 650G + 1299A = 1949PTS (+598)
That is to say, during this 10.5 seasons, Gretzky scored more points than any other player ever has, in anyone's entire career.
Breaking this 10.5 seasons down to one 82-game season on average, it looks like this:
82GP: 66G + 131A = 197 PTS (+60)
The Hockey-Reference "adjusted stats" system for this period would probably adjust that down to something like:
82GP: 56G + 112A = 168 PTS
So, in today's perspective, it's kind of like McDavid's 2023 season if he'd scored about 15 more points... and then done that season for 10.5 consecutive seasons without cessation.
Also, during those 10.5 seasons that were his prime, here's how Wayne did vs. certain clubs:
vs. Detroit:
32GP: 26G + 77A = 103PTS (+63)
3.22 PPG
vs. Quebec:
31GP: 30G + 69A = 99PTS (+44)
3.19 PPG
vs. Minnesota:
32GP: 36G + 54A = 90PTS (+33)
2.81 PPG
vs. Los Angeles (only 1981 to 1988):
57GP: 49G + 106A = 155PTS (+56)
2.72 PPG
vs. Toronto
36GP: 37G + 49A = 86PTS (+34)
2.69 PPG
vs. Pittsburgh
31GP: 27G + 52A = 79PTS (+34)
2.55 PPG
vs. Chicago
31GP: 22G + 55A = 77PTS (+17)
2.48 PPG
vs. St. Louis
31GP: 33G + 44A = 77PTS (+18)
2.48 PPG
vs. Winnipeg:
73GP: 64G + 117A = 181PTS (+76)
2.48 PPG
vs. Philadelphia
29GP: 28G + 41A = 69PTS (+20)
2.38 PPG
vs. Vancouver
80GP: 60G + 130A = 190PTS (+73)
2.38 PPG
___________________________
This is how he did against some of the better defensive clubs (besides Philly) in this era:
vs. Washington
29GP: 23G + 43A = 66PTS (+11)
2.28 PPG
vs. Montreal
31GP: 16G + 46A = 57PTS (+9)
2.00 PPG
vs. Boston
31GP: 17G + 33A = 50PTS (-1)
1.61PPG
Those Boston stats really stand out! I'm not sure how much to read into those, however. My memory is that Edmonton (and maybe L.A., too) would tend to play Montreal and Boston at the end of eastern road-trips, often playing in Montreal the night after playing in Quebec and Boston the night after Hartford / wherever. And for most of this period, Wayne only faced those clubs 3 times per season (or less).
