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Greatest Players of All-Time #5

I used to have Hasek slightly ahead of Roy until Devil and a few others along with some real research convinced me otherwise.

At the end of the day, Roy's simply ridiculous PO resume and performances are a big factor but an even bigger deal is the fact that Hasek QUIT on his team for the playoffs, not once (Buffalo) but twice (Ottawa).
 
Rhiessan71 said:
I used to have Hasek slightly ahead of Roy until Devil and a few others along with some real research convinced me otherwise.

At the end of the day, Roy's simply ridiculous PO resume and performances are a big factor but an even bigger deal is the fact that Hasek QUIT on his team for the playoffs, not once (Buffalo) but twice (Ottawa).
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Give him his fair credit... he quit on Detroit in 2004 too. :laugh:

ESPN said:
Detroit Red Wings legend and captain Steve Yzerman described Dominik Hasek's departure from the team Tuesday as "strange."

...

Hasek skated out onto the ice at Joe Louis Arena and took a few warm-up shots. He skated off, declared himself unfit to play and said his season was over due to lingering groin problems. The club did not make the announcement. Neither did the team doctor. It was Hasek. He simply declared his season over.

Red Wings coach Dave Lewis, who thought Hasek would on that day announce he was ready to play, instead learned his star player was finished.

Strange? Absolutely. Eerie? Well, when you consider what he did to Nolan and later the Buffalo Sabres, it's difficult to overlook the trend.
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Sentinel said:
The day when out of Top 25 hockey players of all time, at least a third will be non-Canadian, I will proclaim "Canadian bias" officially dead. But we have a long way to go. :handclap::handclap:
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Arbitrary benchmarks are always the best way to eliminate bias. I applaud your efforts.
 
Sentinel said:
Oh, like Roy didn't QUIT on his team (Team Canada in 2002). They still won without him, but still.
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Not comparable. Roy said he didn't want to be a member of the team unless he was guaranteed the starter's job. Says something about his ego, but not his abilities as a player. He ended up not being a member of the team.

Hasek refused to play for three different NHL teams in the playoff that he started the season for. In at least one of them (the Sabres), he was medically cleared to play. For the other two, I believe he never even let himself be seen by a doctor before shutting his own season down.

Even if you don't think such shenanigans matter, here's a question - if Hasek refused to play when he wasn't 100%, how much would it affect his save percentage? This isn't even just those three seasons in question - Hasek routinely missed a good deal of games in the regular season, as well. Considering the goalies he's usually compared to (Roy, Brodeur) would do anything to play even if not completely healthy. I would love to see any attempt to quantify how much Hasek's save percentage would go down if he played games when he wasn't 100% like most other goalies do.


Sentinel said:
The day when out of Top 25 hockey players of all time, at least a third will be non-Canadian, I will proclaim "Canadian bias" officially dead. But we have a long way to go. :handclap::handclap:
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It'll happen, but not for a long time. And it has nothing to do with bias. The fact is that the Stanley Cup was first awarded in 1892. When did any European country start to play on the same level as Canada? The early 1970s... late 1960s at the earliest if you want to give that generation of Russians the benefit of the doubt.

Even today, the league is half Canadian.
 
Sentinel said:
But that can explain precisely why he didn't do so well in CCs. Different size rinks.


It's like saying that Ovechkin had no problem at all making a transition as opposed to Makarov, Krutov, Kasatonov, etc. No kidding. Different eras.

And if Hasek makes it to #5 (which is what it looks like), it can certainly be a blow to the Canadian bias. :yo:
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there has to be an inherent canadian bias in a list like that because most of the players are canadian, even today. and of course europeans only started to play in the 70s which is some 70 years after the founding of the nhl. it is logical that canadians dominate these lists.
 
Sentinel said:
The day when out of Top 25 hockey players of all time, at least a third will be non-Canadian, I will proclaim "Canadian bias" officially dead. But we have a long way to go. :handclap::handclap:
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God forgive me for entering this rabbit hole, but... which eight or nine non-Canadian players belong in the top-25 hockey players of all-time?
 
Sentinel said:
The day when out of Top 25 hockey players of all time, at least a third will be non-Canadian, I will proclaim "Canadian bias" officially dead. But we have a long way to go. :handclap::handclap:
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Your aint-Canadian bias far exceeds any Canadian bias I have ever witnessed on these boards.

You want the top-25 to consist of a 1/3 Euro's despite only being at the upper level of hockey for less than 40% of the time and only providing about 30% of the talent in that 40% of the time.
Yeah....makes so much sense :roll eyes:
Last I checked, 30% of 40% was about 10% which just so happens to be about the same % that Euro's are represented in the top-25.
 
I think you could definitely argue that a third of the top 25 players of the last 25 years or so (when a lot more Euros started playing in the NHL) are European:

Jagr
Hasek
Lidstrom
Selanne
Kurri
Ovechkin

These 6 almost certainly are top 25 players of the last 25 years.

Fedorov
Malkin
etc.

Have an argument too.


So yes, since the league integrated Euros, it's fair to say (or at least argue) that at least a third of the top players have been European. However before the 80s there were little to no Euros, and the only real competition was CSKA Moscow/Soviet national team. Before the 70s there was literally no competition. Thus it makes sense why the majority of the top players in a 100+ year old sport are Canadian/North American.
 
I still like Roy over Hasek.

the crazy thing about Roy - split his career in half, literally. Now, I believe that either of Roy the Habs goalie or Roy the Colorado goalie *STILL* has enough of an argument to win the Greatest Playoff Goalie of all-time award.

Does anyone dispute that? Certainly not a "slam dunk" that both halves win, but i think an argument can be made. Which would mean that his playoff records is 2x better than any other goalie in history. Pretty crazy stuff.

Roy - 3 Conn Smythes. And honestly, if Roy had won it in 1996 I don't think it would have been that far-fetched at all. I'll even go so far as to say - if Roy gets injured before 96 playoffs, there is 0% chance Colorado wins the cup. If Sakic gets injured? I think there's still a good chance. It's the Patrick Roy trade to Colorado after all that put them over the edge - no disrespect at all meant to Sakic who was unbelievable.

I get that in a team sports, it's hard to try and judge an individual player by his ability to "win". But I don't think anyone here, even the biggest of Hasek supports, will try and deny that Roy did more in the NHL playoffs to make his teams "win" than Hasek, or than maybe anyone else in NHL history.

Would love to start a serious Roy vs Hasek argument in a seperate thread, as not just a poll but a debate.
 
Wrath said:
I think you could definitely argue that a third of the top 25 players of the last 25 years or so (when a lot more Euros started playing in the NHL) are European:

Jagr
Hasek
Lidstrom
Selanne
Kurri
Ovechkin

These 6 almost certainly are top 25 players of the last 25 years.

Fedorov
Malkin
etc.

Have an argument too.


So yes, since the league integrated Euros, it's fair to say (or at least argue) that at least a third of the top players have been European. However before the 80s there were little to no Euros, and the only real competition was CSKA Moscow/Soviet national team. Before the 70s there was literally no competition. Thus it makes sense why the majority of the top players in a 100+ year old sport are Canadian/North American.
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We're kinda getting off-topic a bit here but:

Hrmm, no question Hasek, Lidstrom and Jagr make it to top 25 out of past25 years. If you actually mean "25" years and not "35", than Kurri doesn't even qualify does he. Selanne, Ovechkin, Federov, Malkin...? I dunno. I'm not saying yes, and i'm not saying no, but I'd have to actualy think up of a list of 25 before agreeing. Odds are that yes, maybe 6 make it or more, but it's hard to say without looking at an actual list.
 
bobholly39 said:
the crazy thing about Roy - split his career in half, literally. Now, I believe that either of Roy the Habs goalie or Roy the Colorado goalie *STILL* has enough of an argument to win the Greatest Playoff Goalie of all-time award.

Does anyone dispute that? Certainly not a "slam dunk" that both halves win, but i think an argument can be made. Which would mean that his playoff records is 2x better than any other goalie in history. Pretty crazy stuff.
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Two things: Absolutely the 1996 Colorado Avalanche needed Joe Sakic to win the Stanley Cup. Second, I don't know that either half of Roy would be, alone, the best playoff goaltender.

The breakdown of quality games was as follows:

87-32 Montreal
Quality Series (Positive): 18
Quality Series (Even): 2
Quality Series (Negative): 4

92-41 Colorado
Quality Series (Positive): 19
Quality Series (Even): 2
Quality Series (Negative): 1


While he has the raw quantity to look like he would be the best in either set, goaltenders who played in the two-round era are obviously going to have half as many playoff games as a four-round goaltender, so it's probable that Jacques Plante still gives greater career value in a deceptively similar amount of games.
 
quoipourquoi said:
Two things: Absolutely the 1996 Colorado Avalanche needed Joe Sakic to win the Stanley Cup. Second, I don't know that either half of Roy would be, alone, the best playoff goaltender.

The breakdown of quality games was as follows:

87-32 Montreal
Quality Series (Positive): 18
Quality Series (Even): 2
Quality Series (Negative): 4

92-41 Colorado
Quality Series (Positive): 19
Quality Series (Even): 2
Quality Series (Negative): 1


While he has the raw quantity to look like he would be the best in either set, goaltenders who played in the two-round era are obviously going to have half as many playoff games as a four-round goaltender, so it's probable that Jacques Plante still gives greater career value in a deceptively similar amount of games.
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Sakic was pretty amazing in the 96 playoffs, no question. But if I had to pick - I'd rather pick the team without Sakic but with Roy than vice-versa, and I think i'd stand a better chance that way. Even if without Roy Colorado could go back and use Thibeault (who got traded to the Habs for Roy) instead of only whoever was Roy's backup in Colorado at the time.


Regarding the rest - well, I did point out it's certainly not a "slam dunk" that Roy is voted best playoff goalie of all-time if you split his career in half. But I thikn both halves are almost certainly top 5, and an argument can probably be made for either half to be top 2. You are probably right though - and this means Roy was probably not a full 2x greater than any other goalie in playoff history. But he was close to that, which is astounding. You can't even say that of Gretzky at his best can you, that he was 2x better than second place
 
Wrath said:
I think you could definitely argue that a third of the top 25 players of the last 25 years or so (when a lot more Euros started playing in the NHL) are European:

Jagr
Hasek
Lidstrom
Selanne
Kurri
Ovechkin

These 6 almost certainly are top 25 players of the last 25 years.

Fedorov
Malkin
etc.

Have an argument too.


So yes, since the league integrated Euros, it's fair to say (or at least argue) that at least a third of the top players have been European. However before the 80s there were little to no Euros, and the only real competition was CSKA Moscow/Soviet national team. Before the 70s there was literally no competition. Thus it makes sense why the majority of the top players in a 100+ year old sport are Canadian/North American.
Click to expand...

No Forsberg? Even Datsyuk and Bure deserve a mention only taking the past 25 years into account.
 
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