Gender Equality Month: Women of the TML

[therealkoho]

I never get these. You hire the best person for the job......... race, gender, sexual orientation should have zero to do with that.

If the best person for the job happens to be a woman, fantastic, but the push to hire specific genders or races simply to fill quota, or the need to feel progressive (looking more specifically at the NFL here) is something I'll never get.

same as the CFL Canadian rule, if there are two guy's and only 1 job, who cares if the guy is from Tuscaloosa, Toronto or Timbuktu, you're trying to win end of the story.

I've always seen women as equal intellectually.

 

[ITM]

Can't wait until Best Person For the Job Month is created.

To be followed by Truth Verification Method Month.

And capped by Verbal Engineering is Dangerous and Wrong Month.

 

[therealkoho]

Are you telling me that in a results oriented industry, the best talent is being held back based on race and gender?

well Al there was a time for sure, but I think most of those people are out of the game and replaced by a younger and more enlightened group, not saying that the dinosaurs don't still exist, it's just become easier to ignore the lack of logic that seems to rule their thinking and decision making.

 

[riffle]

I'd be curious to learn who here has very close friends that happen to be a different gender and or race.

The issue with the good ol' boy club is they hire other white guys, like themselves, because that is who they're closest to in their personal lives. Guys hire friends all the time, and if you're a white guy, the chances are your closest friends are generally speaking white...so you hire who you feel rapport with, which creates a self-perpetuating cyle of white guys hiring white guys.

It takes people getting out of their comfort zones to hire someone they don't know and don't feel an instant rapport with.

If you've ever seen a job posting at your company and you know the boss has a bunch of children working in the company, and they're going up for the job, you know your chances are what? Nil. Daddy or mommy is going to hire one of their own kids even though you might know you are eminently more qualified.

When we say these decisions are made over who gives the best chance of winning, I don't think that's true. It should be, but it isn't.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

I'd be curious to learn who here has very close friends that happen to be a different gender and or race.

The issue with the good ol' boy club is they hire other white guys, like themselves, because that is who they're closest to in their personal lives. Guys hire friends all the time, and if you're a white guy, the chances are your closest friends are generally speaking white...so you hire who you feel rapport with, which creates a self-perpetuating cyle of white guys hiring white guys.

It takes people getting out of their comfort zones to hire someone they don't know and don't feel an instant rapport with.

If you've ever seen a job posting at your company and you know the boss has a bunch of children working in the company, and they're going up for the job, you know your chances are what? Nil. Daddy or mommy is going to hire one of their own kids even though you might know you are eminently more qualified.

When we say these decisions are made over who gives the best chance of winning, I don't think that's true. It should be, but it isn't.

In the context of this issue, it can be considered a white guy issue as you put it, but out of this context on a global scale its a human nature issue. People hire who and what they are comfortable and familiar with, which usually means friends and families. That idea is a global idea and issue, not just in North America.

 

[riffle]

In the context of this issue, it can be considered a white guy issue as you put it, but out of this context on a global scale its a human nature issue. People hire who and what they are comfortable and familiar with, which usually means friends and families. That idea is a global idea and issue, not just in North America.

That is my point. This is the "why".

 

[hotpaws]

In the context of this issue, it can be considered a white guy issue as you put it, but out of this context on a global scale its a human nature issue. People hire who and what they are comfortable and familiar with, which usually means friends and families. That idea is a global idea and issue, not just in North America.

Wickenheiser hired her buddy Goyette and no one seemed to bat an eye . I guess it's okay replacing the old boys club with the old girls club for some reason .

 

[therealkoho]

as a hockey parent, i’d have to agree that the most prohibitive thing affecting the inclusiveness in hockey, is cost. hockey canada knows this and won’t address it. it affects a lot of families, white and black. instead, they keep doubling down on racism as the cause. i think it’s typical and lazy.

The players themselves should be addressing this through foundations, some players have already as well as some teams, but more needs to be done in making the game affordable for all our children.

growing up in a multicultural setting as a kid, a lot of my friends who were white looked up to michael jordan, but i didn’t know any black kids that had gretzky posters on their wall. it’s just cultural.

I would bet that almost all those white kids who were looking up to MJ played the game in one way or another, whether it be driveway 21, after school hoops or playing in an organized league. for the "black kids" I'm thinking that none of them actually played, possibly not even street hockey.

 

[therealkoho]

geez #22in the white should have beat her face in or in the very least give hera sharp two hander across the collarbone

 

[riffle]

Wickenheiser hired her buddy Goyette and no one seemed to bat an eye . I guess it's okay replacing the old boys club with the old girls club for some reason .

This is something I've thought about for years. The very people who feel marginalized when given the opportunity would do the same thing that has kept them feeling marginalized. As noted, this is human nature. People gravitate toward what is familiar and comfortable to them.

I think many know that if they relinquish any form of control what you noted in your post would happen and before long their grip of control would loosen to ultimately being gone entirely. That keeps people less likely to relinquish the control they currently have.

 

[therealkoho]

Can't wait until Best Person For the Job Month is created.

To be followed by Truth Verification Method Month.

And capped by Verbal Engineering is Dangerous and Wrong Month.

I can't wait until we rid the language of those two words!

"best" and "person" both are assigning value needlessly and could possibly create negative feelings

 

[hotpaws]

This is something I've thought about for years. The very people who feel marginalized when given the opportunity would do the same thing that has kept them feeling marginalized. As noted, this is human nature. People gravitate toward what is familiar and comfortable to them.

I think many know that if they relinquish any form of control what you noted in your post would happen and before long their grip of control would loosen to ultimately being gone entirely. That keeps people less likely to relinquish the control they currently have.

regardless of race/gender/sexual preference what have you , people talk about about being marginalized or discriminated against but the truth is they'd act no differently if/when positions are reversed

 

[Go4soda]

The players themselves should be addressing this through foundations, some players have already as well as some teams, but more needs to be done in making the game affordable for all our children.


I would bet that almost all those white kids who were looking up to MJ played the game in one way or another, whether it be driveway 21, after school hoops or playing in an organized league. for the "black kids" I'm thinking that none of them actually played, possibly not even street hockey.

for the most part, that’s right. it’s a cycle. you need to play, in some capacity, to become interested in other players of that sport. and you typically aren’t motivated to play until there are others who look like you, or come from a similar culture.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Wickenheiser hired her buddy Goyette and no one seemed to bat an eye . I guess it's okay replacing the old boys club with the old girls club for some reason .

Nope its the exact same issue no matter the group.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

regardless of race/gender/sexual preference what have you people talk about about being marginalized or discriminated against but the truth is they'd act no differently if/when positions are reversed

This is 100% truthful and correct. Its a human tendency across the globe.

 

[therealkoho]

regardless of race/gender/sexual preference what have you people talk about about being marginalized or discriminated against but the truth is they'd act no differently if/when positions are reversed

Uh-huh did you just say "you people"

 

[ITM]

regardless of race/gender/sexual preference what have you , people talk about about being marginalized or discriminated against but the truth is they'd act no differently if/when positions are reversed

Commas save lives.

 

[Mr_Fun]

Fifty years ago, the best person for the job may actually have been a woman, but because of the culture in hockey, wasn't getting hired. I have zero problem evening up the playing field by hiring a few more women, as long as they are qualified for the position. They might not be the most qualified, but as long as they are qualified, I think it's a good move. I also have the same opinion for visible minorities as well.

 

[hotpaws]

Commas save lives.

thanks , threw one in there , lol

 

[therealkoho]

thanks! , threw, one, in there , lol

That's how they wrote Shatners lines when he played Kirk

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Forgive me, but I thought Politics and thus political agenda discussion was banned on HF.

Am I wrong?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

That is my point. This is the "why".

It's called "ingroup preference" and it's an acknowledged phenomena.

 

[GQS]

I’m not explaining it because unless you’re a minority it will never make sense to you and I don’t feel like outlining it for you. It’s exhausting. There is zero way you can understand it. There are so many systemic barriers that prevent coloured people from playing hockey. Many of which have been outlined here in this thread. Just read. #1 is affordability, but there are other issues at hand, the sport is not inclusive to coloured people. Racism in the sport is rampant.

In this day and age I'd say there are few if any barriers preventing people from playing hockey. If money was the main issue then why aren't we seeing many middle class and wealthy asian kids in hockey? Clearly they can afford it and yet the number of asian players is still so very few. And if we're talking black kids, do you really seriously believe there are tons of them just dying to get into hockey but can't simply for financial reasons? I find that difficult to believe.

I mean just look on the streets of Toronto and ask yourself how many black kids do you see playing even ball hockey? All you need is a stick and a ball and a cheap net and some pads if you want to spend a tiny more. And yet even then I rarely see black or many minority kids in general play ball hockey on the streets. On the otherhand I do see a number of non-black kids have a basketball net in their driveways playing some hoops or a mix of kids shooting the basketball at their local courts.

Why isn't it possible to simply acknowledge that different people have different interests and that you can't force people to like something? If the NHL and/or government invested a billion dollars to promote and fund minority kids to get them into hockey programs so that they might take it up seriously and potentially become NHL players someday, I seriously doubt that you'll suddenly get tens of thousands of non-white kids taking up hockey just because they have the opportunity to do so. Many if not most will still say 'Thanks but no thanks' because they're probably not interested in the sport.

And also if we're talking about more diversity in leagues then why is there rarely if any push to make the NBA and NFL more diverse? Both of those leagues are majority black athletes with a minority of whites and then barely any other race/ethnicity. How come we've rarely if ever seen either of those leagues come up with big programs and campaigns to make those sports more diverse? 'We need more asians, arabs, latinos etc. We can't just be black and white'. Never heard that before from the NBA and NFL. Funny how those sports seem perfectly fine with not having a more diverse league with more athletes from different backgrounds and few people really care. But hockey being 'too white'? Oh noes we need to change that even though its pretty clear that many minorities don't have an interest in having their kids join the sport on any professional/organized level.

 

[francis246]

In this day and age I'd say there are few if any barriers preventing people from playing hockey. If money was the main issue then why aren't we seeing many middle class and wealthy asian kids in hockey? Clearly they can afford it and yet the number of asian players is still so very few. And if we're talking black kids, do you really seriously believe there are tons of them just dying to get into hockey but can't simply for financial reasons? I find that difficult to believe.

I mean just look on the streets of Toronto and ask yourself how many black kids do you see playing even ball hockey? All you need is a stick and a ball and a cheap net and some pads if you want to spend a tiny more. And yet even then I rarely see black or many minority kids in general play ball hockey on the streets. On the otherhand I do see a number of non-black kids have a basketball net in their driveways playing some hoops or a mix of kids shooting the basketball at their local courts.

Why isn't it possible to simply acknowledge that different people have different interests and that you can't force people to like something? If the NHL and/or government invested a billion dollars to promote and fund minority kids to get them into hockey programs so that they might take it up seriously and potentially become NHL players someday, I seriously doubt that you'll suddenly get tens of thousands of non-white kids taking up hockey just because they have the opportunity to do so. Many if not most will still say 'Thanks but no thanks' because they're probably not interested in the sport.

And also if we're talking about more diversity in leagues then why is there rarely if any push to make the NBA and NFL more diverse? Both of those leagues are majority black athletes with a minority of whites and then barely any other race/ethnicity. How come we've rarely if ever seen either of those leagues come up with big programs and campaigns to make those sports more diverse? 'We need more asians, arabs, latinos etc. We can't just be black and white'. Never heard that before from the NBA and NFL. Funny how those sports seem perfectly fine with not having a more diverse league with more athletes from different backgrounds and few people really care. But hockey being 'too white'? Oh noes we need to change that even though its pretty clear that many minorities don't have an interest in having their kids join the sport on any professional/organized level.

Lol, posts like these are exactly why discussion is pointless. It’s just ignorance really.

 

[francis246]

In this day and age I'd say there are few if any barriers preventing people from playing hockey. If money was the main issue then why aren't we seeing many middle class and wealthy asian kids in hockey? Clearly they can afford it and yet the number of asian players is still so very few. And if we're talking black kids, do you really seriously believe there are tons of them just dying to get into hockey but can't simply for financial reasons? I find that difficult to believe.

I mean just look on the streets of Toronto and ask yourself how many black kids do you see playing even ball hockey? All you need is a stick and a ball and a cheap net and some pads if you want to spend a tiny more. And yet even then I rarely see black or many minority kids in general play ball hockey on the streets. On the otherhand I do see a number of non-black kids have a basketball net in their driveways playing some hoops or a mix of kids shooting the basketball at their local courts.

Why isn't it possible to simply acknowledge that different people have different interests and that you can't force people to like something? If the NHL and/or government invested a billion dollars to promote and fund minority kids to get them into hockey programs so that they might take it up seriously and potentially become NHL players someday, I seriously doubt that you'll suddenly get tens of thousands of non-white kids taking up hockey just because they have the opportunity to do so. Many if not most will still say 'Thanks but no thanks' because they're probably not interested in the sport.

And also if we're talking about more diversity in leagues then why is there rarely if any push to make the NBA and NFL more diverse? Both of those leagues are majority black athletes with a minority of whites and then barely any other race/ethnicity. How come we've rarely if ever seen either of those leagues come up with big programs and campaigns to make those sports more diverse? 'We need more asians, arabs, latinos etc. We can't just be black and white'. Never heard that before from the NBA and NFL. Funny how those sports seem perfectly fine with not having a more diverse league with more athletes from different backgrounds and few people really care. But hockey being 'too white'? Oh noes we need to change that even though its pretty clear that many minorities don't have an interest in having their kids join the sport on any professional/organized level.

NBA spends more time in China then any other league. NBA, NFL and MLB are very diverse. There are quite a few Asian, middle eastern, Indian decent athletes in each of those sports. The main difference is that the NHL sucks at promoting the game, that is the truth. There are definitely minorities that are interested hockey or do become interested in hockey at a later age. The problem is they aren’t exposed to it at an earlier enough age. I do agree with you, the barriers have become less. But still marketing of the sport is horrendous.

Also you see more kids playing basketball, football and soccer because those sports are simply more accessible. You need 1 ball and there is a basketball net at every school or corner in a neighbour hood. You just need 1 football for a big group, you need 1 soccer ball for a big group. You don’t need skill development coaches or to pay for ice time to get better at those sports. You can go work on your game for hours outside or any rec Center for free. That’s why more minorities choose those sports, not only are they a bit more entertaining but the cost to develop as an athlete is lower.

With anything if there is representation of those athletes; the interest will be there. Like I’ve mentioned, I’m black, the interest level in hockey I’ve seen from my friend groups has grown a lot since Austin Matthews has been a maple leaf. Not because he’s a minority but because he’s entertaining and is a world class talent. I’m also a teacher and I’ve also seen more minority kids having an interest in hockey. Do I ever think it’s going to get to the level of playing basketball, soccer, baseball? No but It’s growing but there’s still work to be done.