Gender Equality Month: Women of the TML

[riffle]

Swing and a miss....

You can't say diversity has to be a natural process when related to Hockey or other sports it never has been. Even if you think currently there is no bias against women or minority, do you believe there never was? If so, if a group faced biases how can you say it has to be a natural process now? Don't you think those biases should be combatted first to re-even the playing field?

For those who keep stating that the best people should be hired for the job, how do you know these women aren't? The Leafs celebrating a group within their organization suddenly became a place for people to speak on how we shouldn't hire people that aren't the best qualified? Just celebrate the fact that our organization is doing well on the ice and some people behind the scenes that CONTRIBUTE to the success are being celebrated. This doesn't take away from anyone else or hurt anyone else.

I'm not sure how you could read my post and conclude I believe there never has been bias against women and minorities. I know there has been, hence, me calling out the "automatic" exclusion based on gender. I think if you start with that premise, it is wrong to do so. You can't just automatically exclude based on factors that have nothing to do with merit.

It isn't only women who have been marginalized in hockey. There have been many groups. I'm saying I think all of that is wrong. However, I will not, nor ever, will I celebrate seeing any particular group being promoted within hockey.

As an American, I'm not going to sit back and celebrate the fact Auston Matthews is an American. Nor will I hope for more Americans to play for the Leafs. There is a form of tribalism and some would say racism or nationalism in wishing such things. That is where all of these issues flow from. That is why I refuse to celebrate any group's ascension within hockey, it's just everything many here are railing against by another name.

Would you start a post regarding Russian Hockey Month and celebrate the fact the Leafs have several Russian players within the organization? No, you wouldn't and especially right now. Why? If you can answer that, in the rhetorical sense, you'll understand my position. If you can't, I'll spell it out. Nobody is going to celebrate Russians right now because they're "out" in a world sense right now. Women in hockey is very progressive and trendy right now and promoted for many reasons other than it just being about women in hockey. People are crossing many lines and have many motives for this promotion. None of those motives are good, to me, other than the idea that women are no longer excluded which, as I've said, I will celebrate.

 

[francis246]

what the hell does the NFL have to do with the NHL ? the amount of minorities playing in the NHL is fraction compared to the NFL

and no one is holding back minorities from playing hockey , Scarboro had a thriving hockey community that all but dried up and died due to changing demographics and i'm damn sure they would have loved for Ali and his/her friends to have picked up the sport

“No one is holding back minorities” LOL spoken like someone with privilege.

 

[hotpaws]

It isn't as inclusive as you think, Isaac made a good point in terms of cost being a huge factor. When kids start playing sports at a young age its way easier to play soccer and basketball than it is to play hockey. That is a fact. Hockey equipment is expensive and kids grow out of equipment fast.

yup hockey is expensive and guess what , it's just as expensive for white people so the problem of affordability affects all races that's why it's a factor in enrollment dropping

 

[hotpaws]

“No one is holding back minorities” LOL spoken like someone with privilege.

tell me how it's holding back minorities ?

 

[francis246]

You know the new hire is a shittier coach how exactly?

The situation with Flores was odd forsure, but you have no idea how the new coach will do.

The guy has never been a head coach in the NFL. He’s had some offensive coordinator jobs that’s about it. He’s definitely not more qualified than Flores. Flores actually took that abysmal team out of the dumps and that still wasn’t good enough for the owner. But I digress.

I think that’s point right? White coaches with no merit are getting hired over minority coaches with merit and a proven track record. It’s odd. Again NFL is a completely different league. I think in the NHL it’s more about women breaking into the league in different roles. There just aren’t enough minorities in hockey to begin with.

 

[francis246]

tell me how it's holding back minorities ?

I’m not gonna explain it to you, it’s not my job to. Lots of people have already pointed it out. But let me tell you this, I am a minority and I’m actually born and raised in Scarborough and you couldn’t be more wrong lol.

 

[hotpaws]

I’m not gonna explain it to you, it’s not my job to. Lots of people have already pointed it out. But let me tell you this, I am a minority and I’m actually born and raised in Scarborough and you couldn’t be more wrong lol.

you can't explain it because you have no idea how it held back minorities

i grew up in Scarboro and my parents still there so tell me again how you were excluded from joining one of the many hockey leagues that operated up until a few years ago when they almost all shut down due to a lack of enrollment

 

[Isaac Nootin]

The guy has never been a head coach in the NFL. He’s had some offensive coordinator jobs that’s about it.

Yeah, just like Kyle Shanahan or Super Bowl winning coach Sean McVay........or every other coach at some point.

 

[francis246]

you can't explain it because you have no idea how it held back minorities

i grew up in Scarboro and my parents still there so tell me again how you were excluded from joining one of the many hockey leagues that operated up until a few years ago when they almost all shut down due to a lack of enrollment

I’m not explaining it because unless you’re a minority it will never make sense to you and I don’t feel like outlining it for you. It’s exhausting. There is zero way you can understand it. There are so many systemic barriers that prevent coloured people from playing hockey. Many of which have been outlined here in this thread. Just read. #1 is affordability, but there are other issues at hand, the sport is not inclusive to coloured people. Racism in the sport is rampant.

 

[francis246]

Yeah, just like Kyle Shanahan or Super Bowl winning coach Sean McVay........or every other coach at some point.

Right two success stories out of a multitude of failures of offensive coordinators. How’s Belicheks school of coaches looking? Those guys all suck. At least other guys have been head coaches at notable universities before breaking into the NFL.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Right two success stories out of a multitude of failures of offensive coordinators. How’s Belicheks school of coaches looking? Those guys all suck. At least other guys have been head coaches at notable universities before breaking into the NFL.

There's many more than 2, and you know that.

Heck, Belicheck was an assistant before becoming a head coach.

Regardless, you speak in specifics when we know nothing about the new hire. He could be great, he could flop. Time will tell.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I liked the blind interview process that the Leafs used for Noelle Needham. I think that was a smart way to go when it comes to eliminating bias.

The one thing I don't like is that they assume that all non-diverse candidates are on the same footing before merit and qualifications are considered... Which as others have mentioned above, is what they are trying to achieve with diversity programs.

I am willing to bet that the people who decided to put those programs together are probably non-diverse people who got their start through connections that most non-diverse candidates do not have (Dubas and Shanahan are two of those people who had connections) and therefore have no idea that it is even happening.

Also, kind of sucks that Farah Bastien wasn't mentioned... She is someone who deserves serious recognition, but she doesn't technically work for the "Leafs" as much as "MLSE Digital Labs" (which apparently is independent from the main MLSE too).

 

[francis246]

you can't explain it because you have no idea how it held back minorities

i grew up in Scarboro and my parents still there so tell me again how you were excluded from joining one of the many hockey leagues that operated up until a few years ago when they almost all shut down due to a lack of enrollment

Additionally by the time minorities do get an interest in the sport, they are too old. How do you expect a kid to learn to skate at 10/11/12 and then develop as good as a kid who’s started skating at 2/3 years old. The gap is too big, with Basketball, Soccer and Volleyball you can start late and catch up. In hockey it’s so rare to see that happen it’s almost impossible. Again, I like the direction of the game now, it’s more inclusive now. Not everything is white peoples fault or anything like that. But to say there are no barriers for minority isn’t true. There are lots.

 

[riffle]

I’m not explaining it because unless you’re a minority it will never make sense to you and I don’t feel like outlining it for you. It’s exhausting. There is zero way you can understand it. There are so many systemic barriers that prevent coloured people from playing hockey. Many of which have been outlined here in this thread. Just read. #1 is affordability, but there are other issues at hand, the sport is not inclusive to coloured people. Racism in the sport is rampant.

I refuse to believe this is true. If it was, you can never hold anyone responsible for perpetuating this issue because they can never understand it. Things change with understanding. I don't care what race or gender you are, we've all felt exclusion at some point in our lives and can all relate to how that feels, which is not very good. Hearing your story about how this made you feel creates understanding. I, for one, would love to hear your story and apologize that you ever had to feel as you do.

 

[hotpaws]

I’m not explaining it because unless you’re a minority it will never make sense to you and I don’t feel like outlining it for you. It’s exhausting. There is zero way you can understand it. There are so many systemic barriers that prevent coloured people from playing hockey. Many of which have been outlined here in this thread. Just read. #1 is affordability, but there are other issues at hand, the sport is not inclusive to coloured people. Racism in the sport is rampant.

do you realize had you joined a league in Scaboro it would been run by minorities and the players would have been all minorities due to the demographics of the area

if you want to complain about the costs that fair but i know plenty of white people who couldn't afford to have there kids play or just left them in house league because rep was too expensive

everything isn't always racist and it's hard to make the claim that hockey organizations that were around for decades were racist and preferred to fold as opposed to be having minorities play for them

 

[kule41]

I'm not sure how you could read my post and conclude I believe there never has been bias against women and minorities. I know there has been, hence, me calling out the "automatic" exclusion based on gender. I think if you start with that premise, it is wrong to do so. You can't just automatically exclude based on factors that have nothing to do with merit.

It isn't only women who have been marginalized in hockey. There have been many groups. I'm saying I think all of that is wrong. However, I will not, nor ever, will I celebrate seeing any particular group being promoted within hockey.

I look at how Morgan Freeman feels about "Black History Month" and think it applies here, as well.

Diversity has to be the natural outflow of a process. Starting with the idea that women are automatically excluded is and has always been wrong. It's great "hockey is for everyone" is becoming more of a reality every single day.

For me, I'll never celebrate any groups promotion within hockey, however, I will celebrate that no group is excluded and there is a difference.

You stated "Diversity has to be the natural outflow of a process". My point was it already has been impacted by bias and so you can't just have a "natural" flow without first correcting for previous biases. Secondly, women and minorities have been excluded. This is well known, it isn't any near a false premise to think so. I agree other groups have been and if you particularly don't want to see it being promoted okay but what about other people and players that do? It's okay to not want to participate but actively trying to criticize the celebration is weird since it has no negative impact on you or anyone.

As an American, I'm not going to sit back and celebrate the fact Auston Matthews is an American. Nor will I hope for more Americans to play for the Leafs. There is a form of tribalism and some would say racism or nationalism in wishing such things. That is where all of these issues flow from. That is why I refuse to celebrate any group's ascension within hockey, it's just everything many here are railing against by another name.

Would you start a post regarding Russian Hockey Month and celebrate the fact the Leafs have several Russian players within the organization? No, you wouldn't and especially right now. Why? If you can answer that, in the rhetorical sense, you'll understand my position. If you can't, I'll spell it out. Nobody is going to celebrate Russians right now because they're "out" in a world sense right now. Women in hockey is very progressive and trendy right now and promoted for many reasons other than it just being about women in hockey. People are crossing many lines and have many motives for this promotion. None of those motives are good, to me, other than the idea that women are no longer excluded which, as I've said, I will celebrate.

In hockey they do celebrate nationality though, Auston Matthews has been compared too many Americans players all time. It's continuously talked about with many players around the whole league. They celebrate the countries by playing the national anthem. Outside the hockey world you have independence day celebrations. Are you actively out there criticizing this?

Again I understand if you don't want to actively celebrate for personal reasons. I don't think there is any issues with this. I also understand organizations and people can have ulterior motives. But people also hide behind a similar rhetoric to yours to be sexist/racist.

 

[Kiwi]

Additionally by the time minorities do get an interest in the sport, they are too old. How do you expect a kid to learn to skate at 10/11/12 and then develop as good as a kid who’s started skating at 2/3 years old. The gap is too big, with Basketball, Soccer and Volleyball you can start late and catch up. In hockey it’s so rare to see that happen it’s almost impossible. Again, I like the direction of the game now, it’s more inclusive now. Not everything is white peoples fault or anything like that. But to say there are no barriers for minority isn’t true. There are lots.

I think people are missing the personal preference side of this equation

A lot of the athletic minority kids who would be good candidates to play hockey are gravitating towards sports like Basketball or NFL

Even in a country like New Zealand where basketball and the NFL had almost no popularity a decade or two ago and pulling massive numbers of kids from minority communities now

 

[francis246]

I refuse to believe this is true. If it was, you can never hold anyone responsible for perpetuating this issue because they can never understand it. Things change with understanding. I don't care what race or gender you are, we've all felt exclusion at some point in our lives and can all relate to how that feels, which is not very good. Hearing your story about how this made you feel creates understanding. I, for one, would love to hear your story and apologize that you ever had to feel as you do.

I guess I shouldn’t say people couldn’t understand. Because you did outline it right, change does come from understanding. But I will say there are so many kids like myself that only wished to play hockey or even have the opportunity, but there was no subsidies to make it affordable, plus I have two brothers so to afford for 3 let alone 1 would be nearly impossible. Then you have the issue of even if my parents were able to afford it, who would take us to practice, they had to go back to school because Canada didn’t recognize their degrees. So they are working and enrolled in post secondary education to re-up their degrees to get jobs. By the time they are stable I’m in my teens hockey is an after thought. I won’t be able to catch up, this is sadly the reality for a lot of minority people. So they end up choosing other sports that are more affordable, closer to home

 

[francis246]

I think people are missing the personal preference side of this equation

A lot of the athletic minority kids who would be good candidates to play hockey are gravitating towards sports like Basketball or NFL

Even in a country like New Zealand where basketball and the NFL had almost no popularity a decade or two ago and pulling massive numbers of kids from minority communities now

100% but that definitely has a lot to do with representation right? They see people like them in the sport. Which is why there is such a push for representation in hockey, female and minority. Because they want people to identify and relate and choose that sport. Could you imagine a lebron James like athlete in hockey?

 

[kule41]

yup hockey is expensive and guess what , it's just as expensive for white people so the problem of affordability affects all races that's why it's a factor in enrollment dropping

Soccer is getting pricey as well at the higher levels and parents can choose whatever sport they want to enroll their children in , i'm just getting tired of hearing how hockey isn't inclusive when there's nothing stopping people from signing there kids sign up to play the sport .

Yeah my point wasn't that its the only thing holding back minorities. I was responding to your statement that soccer is getting pricey. Cost is a factor in why hockey isn't a preference compared to soccer or basketball but it definitely isn't the only one. Even when parents can afford to put their kids in hockey, those kids face racism and prejudice. There's numerous stories of NHL players reporting hearing to deal with these issues as kids. Scarborough isn't any better, Simmonds journey and youth experiences are clearly noted. As a parent, if you have the opportunity to put your kids in hockey as a minority you would think twice to protect them from discrimination compared to soccer or basketball.

 

[hotpaws]

Additionally by the time minorities do get an interest in the sport, they are too old. How do you expect a kid to learn to skate at 10/11/12 and then develop as good as a kid who’s started skating at 2/3 years old. The gap is too big, with Basketball, Soccer and Volleyball you can start late and catch up. In hockey it’s so rare to see that happen it’s almost impossible. Again, I like the direction of the game now, it’s more inclusive now. Not everything is white peoples fault or anything like that. But to say there are no barriers for minority isn’t true. There are lots.

your complaint has nothing to do with being a minority , i'm a white first gen canadian and i had the same problem but i didn't blame the sport for being exclusive or the irish guy down the street , lol

 

[kule41]

do you realize had you joined a league in Scaboro it would been run by minorities and the players would have been all minorities due to the demographics of the area

if you want to complain about the costs that fair but i know plenty of white people who couldn't afford to have there kids play or just left them in house league because rep was too expensive

everything isn't always racist and it's hard to make the claim that hockey organizations that were around for decades were racist and preferred to fold as opposed to be having minorities play for them

I grew up in Scarborough and played hockey. This isn't as accurate as you think it is. Not saying things aren't changing and getting better but hockey is far from welcoming to minorities as you think it is.

 

[kule41]

Anyways, I think the point of this thread was to celebrate some of the amazing women within the organization that have helped elevate it to a top tier organization. I am happy with how the Leafs organization have handled the team and on-ice product! Congrats to these women for doing well in their positions!

 

[riffle]

You stated "Diversity has to be the natural outflow of a process". My point was it already has been impacted by bias and so you can't just have a "natural" flow without first correcting for previous biases. Secondly, women and minorities have been excluded. This is well known, it isn't any near a false premise to think so. I agree other groups have been and if you particularly don't want to see it being promoted okay but what about other people and players that do? It's okay to not want to participate but actively trying to criticize the celebration is weird since it has no negative impact on you or anyone.



In hockey they do celebrate nationality though, Auston Matthews has been compared too many Americans players all time. It's continuously talked about with many players around the whole league. They celebrate the countries by playing the national anthem. Outside the hockey world you have independence day celebrations. Are you actively out there criticizing this?

Again I understand if you don't want to actively celebrate for personal reasons. I don't think there is any issues with this. I also understand organizations and people can have ulterior motives. But people also hide behind a similar rhetoric to yours to be sexist/racist.

I don't think we're on the same page. I'll say it a third time. The premise I'm speaking of is that women don't belong, which existed for many many years. I think that premise is wrong, has been wrong, will always be wrong and I'm glad it is changing.

What do you think the Korean male thinks when he sees everyone pushing and promoting WOMEN In hockey? He wants in but he knows that WOMEN are the hot button that people are rallying around. Now, he can't get in just like women couldn't and still can't because the push revolves around WOMEN.

This is the blind spot. People don't understand that promoting a particular group is a form of what they've been railing against. How and why they don't see this is beyond me.

Again, I think it is WONDERFUL barriers are being broken down that should've never been there to begin with. EVERYONE should be allowed to participate and not be excluded based on factors THAT DO NOT MATTER. However, I'm not going to pick one pony among the field and celebrate the fact it's now getting opportunities while many others are not because one is being focused on. I want the removal of the barrier for all.

Too many people are on this for reasons that have nothing to do with why they purport to be in favor of it. It is one giant virtue signal.

I understand people are into the whole Auston is American and if you're American that strokes you and you like it. I'm saying I'm against this because that stroking that you're enjoying is the very reason others don't get stroked because you like it so much that is all you wish to see. It is why the good ol' boy club exists in the first place. I won't validate that. If you think that is right, I think you've missed the forest for the trees.

EDIT: I should've addressed the "natural outflow of a process" comment. Yes, it absolutely has to be. Otherwise, you're into quota territory and that is demeaning and wrong. I understand your point and it is a good one that the process in the past was not geared to allowing women into the club. Don't you think the reason they're now being allowed in has to do with the fact that women now play hockey where they didn't in the past? To me, if you can do a job, you can do a job. Leah Hextall is celebrated for being a woman PxP voice. I think she is AWFUL, as in really, really, really painful to listen to. If I say that, I get branded a misogynist and against women. No. I can't stand Kenny Albert. I think he's brutal to listen to. Same goes for Sam Rosen with the Rangers. To see ESPN promote and make a big deal about Leah Hextall calling NHL games is embarrassing to me. She's either qualified or she isn't. Promoting her gender is demeaning and gives the impression that is why she got the job. I don't care for that and deep down Leah knows that it's more about her being a woman than it is her talent when they promote her as a woman in hockey.

 

[Stigma]

What's missing in this thread is data. How many women, for example, graduated from the appropriate programs to apply to professional sports positions? How many had specific interest in hockey admin? How many were hired and not hired from this percentange? What were their qualificaitons? How much experience did they have? In other words, hard data.

You need data before making any sort of conclusion or you're just speculating. This is part of the problem with these debates....they're very speculative and intertwined with emotion.

The personal account of racism in hockey....I get it. I can't argue with what people experienced. Some of the stuff written above really sucks. But I do think though that we can't overgeneralize. Some leagues and cities suck, for sure. However, my beer league in Mississauga is extremely multicultural/multiracial. We all get along very well in this league too. Never heard any sort of race-based incident/issues in all the years I've been playing. Honestly, I've experienced the most interracial bonding and hangout out in this league than I ever experienced in my entire life. And it's hockey!

One more thing......the whole minorities-can't-afford-to-play-hockey is a bit of an insulting argument. East Indians and Chinese, for exampe, are right at the top for SES in North America. White, swarthy ethnics, like myself, have also climbed the ladder in this country due to the amazing opportunities.