Post-Game Talk: Game #69: Canucks lose 4-3 to the Washington Capitals (Matthias, Schroeder, Jensen)

[Virtanen2Horvat]

Where is Matthias? And Kesler is likely gone. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your lineup is very different from what we see next October.

I was thinking Kesler is gone. Totally forgot Matthias. Maybe this:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Jensen-???-Kassian
Higgins-Horvat-Hansen
Richardson-Matthias-Santorelli

??? = Most likely a young center with enough NHL experience to help run that line and get those guys to succeed. Ex. Couturier

EDIT: Santorelli could possibly man the 2C.

 

[MikeK]

I was thinking Kesler is gone. Totally forgot Matthias. Maybe this:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Jensen-???-Kassian
Higgins-Horvat-Hansen
Richardson-Matthias-Santorelli

??? = Most likely a young center with enough NHL experience to help run that line and get those guys to succeed. Ex. Couturier

EDIT: Santorelli could possibly man the 2C.

Everything hinges on a Kesler trade. What they get back for him could potentially effect their entire offseason plan.

 

[Virtanen2Horvat]

Everything hinges on a Kesler trade. What they get back for him could potentially effect their entire offseason plan.

Yeah anything can happen. I wonder whats going to happen if Kesler isn't moved during the draft I will be somewhat concerned about the future of the team and his value dropping as he ages.

 

[Ozone]

I disagree. People were saying that we dealt our 2nd best goalie, and that Lack was better than Lu and ready to take over the number 1 spot. Based on that I don't see why it's not fair to compare the two.

Really. What people were saying this?

 

[Shareefruck]

For Lack's own good, he should be splitting starts with Markstrom at this point, IMO.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Really. What people were saying this?

Several. I'm not going to get into it, but feel free to go over the countless goalie threads discussing these two.

Let's face it: we have seriously downgraded our goaltending and tonight was a prime example. Lack didn't come up with the big save when we needed it. Our secondary scorers showed up. Was nice to see some good plays from Jensen, Schroeder and Kassian.

 

[David71]

nice game for the kids. future line? schroder/jensen.

 

[Jack Tripper]

I understand the need to defend our own guys but some of you in here look ridiculous in your attempts to explain and defend Edler. He has been garbage all of this year and dating back a few now. He hasn't been the same since his back surgery. He is one player where I think his +/- is very deserving and telling. He looks like an avg AHler out there often behind the play and in most cases completely out too lunch. It is almost like he's completely forgotten how to play the game. Forget Kesler and a possible retool, the #1 priority for GMMG has got to be figuring out how to convince Edler to waive and get that $5M cap hit off the roster.

in a who-should-we-keep between edler and bieksa, i really really want to say keep edler because he's 5 years younger and has greater offensive potential...but man, watching him in the defensive zone is an infuriating experience

imho he's not the same player since his back injury and i think you can't use his pre-injury play anymore as a standard for him...some players never recover from that kind of injury and perhaps we have to accept that what you see is what you get with that player...maybe he's not -30 bad, but let's not pretend it's only bad luck and a junk stat we're seeing there

at a minimum, trading him would help the other 5 d-men who can't get comfortable with a pairing because they're constantly getting shuffled to try and stabalize edler's erratic play

 

[Derp Kassian]

Great game for #teamtank, young guys showing good signs and a loss!

On another note, not sure if the D is awful because of the system or they are collectively having a crap year. Just looked lost to a team that wasn't even getting that many chances/possession time. Kind of scary with those contracts back there.

 

[iFan]

nice game for the kids. future line? schroder/jensen.

Schroeder doesn't have much of a future in the NHL, he's not much of a player and he wasn't much of a player at the AHL.

 

[orcatown]

Would classify this as a good loss.

We are as likely to make the playoffs as someone convincing me to fly in Malaysian air space. So forget about that and recognize if we are to miss the playoffs then obviously it's best to miss them by as much as possible to get the point total down and our draft position lifted.

I say a good loss because Sedin and Burrows were beginning to resemble the players they have been and some of the younger or newer players had very good games. Jensen is looking very hopeful and Schroeder was better. Also Mathais looks like he will be very helpful moving ahead. If Markstrom becomes a player then that trade is going to look damn good in the future.

On the negative side that was a tough game for Lack. His inconsistency (good game, bad game, good game, etc... ) is to be expected. He does need work on pulling himself out of position and rebound control. I thought he was the main reason we lost tonight. However, such games gives us a chance to give Lack the type of experience he needs and having our goalie steal games does nothing to improve our chances of getting a better player in the draft. Indeed, getting rid of Luongo might be a long term God-send in that it gives us more chance of getting the younger players we need to improve.

 

[Ozone]

Several. I'm not going to get into it, but feel free to go over the countless goalie threads discussing these two.

Let's face it: we have seriously downgraded our goaltending and tonight was a prime example. Lack didn't come up with the big save when we needed it. Our secondary scorers showed up. Was nice to see some good plays from Jensen, Schroeder and Kassian.

I thought my point was fairly clear. You obviously don't agree with these few extreme points of view, so why bother using them to say "Based on that I don't see why it's not fair to compare the two."

Are you really comparing a rookie to a long term starter based on this?

Other than that, I agree with your post.

 

[PG Canuck]

I thought my point was fairly clear. You obviously don't agree with these few extreme points of view, so why bother using them to say "Based on that I don't see why it's not fair to compare the two."

Are you really comparing a rookie to a long term starter based on this?

Other than that, I agree with your post.

Apparently, yes. Lack was 'picked' over Luongo, so it only makes sense to compare them together.

 

[Ozone]

Apparently, yes. Lack was 'picked' over Luongo, so it only makes sense to compare them together.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Apparently, yes. Lack was 'picked' over Luongo, so it only makes sense to compare them together.

Yup, it does. Funny how people were quick to say "oh Lack is the best goalie on this team, look at the numbers" but now when Lack is the number 1 and his numbers are falling like a rock people don't want to compare.

 

[canuck4life16]

For Lack's own good, he should be splitting starts with Markstrom at this point, IMO.

Ask Torts why he do not this........he ruining Lack development by overplaying him

 

[MikeK]

in a who-should-we-keep between edler and bieksa, i really really want to say keep edler because he's 5 years younger and has greater offensive potential...but man, watching him in the defensive zone is an infuriating experience

imho he's not the same player since his back injury and i think you can't use his pre-injury play anymore as a standard for him...some players never recover from that kind of injury and perhaps we have to accept that what you see is what you get with that player...maybe he's not -30 bad, but let's not pretend it's only bad luck and a junk stat we're seeing there

at a minimum, trading him would help the other 5 d-men who can't get comfortable with a pairing because they're constantly getting shuffled to try and stabalize edler's erratic play

No chance I would ever trade Bieksa and keep Edler. Bieksa has at least proven he is capable of taking his game to another level. Edler on the other hand seems to continue along his usual 'out to lunch' way no matter what the situation is. Plus Bieksa has intangibles to his game that Edler will never have.

I also agree that the time has come to stop using Edler's pre-injury play as a standard for his current abilities. He is a shell of his former self and I don't care what anybody says on the matter. We all watch the same games and Edler today isn't even in the same galaxy as the Edler of 4 years ago. It is time to move on from him. We could move Edler and slot Corrado in his place and not be any worse for it. Heck, we'd probably be improved.

 

[mossey3535]

I still don't understand why it's hard to say 'Lack had an average-to-poor game tonight' rather than run in full apology mode for him because he's a rookie. I'm not saying he's a bust.

Nor does 'small sample size' apply here. I've said that LATELY he is struggling and erratic. Even without the caveat of looking at the recent trend, his good game-poor game pattern has run pretty much the entire season with the exception of a good stretch of 6 games near the start of the season.

Since we are no longer in the running for the playoffs, his lack of consistency (pun intended) could be addressed simply by playing Markstrom and not forcing start after start on Lack. This also has the benefit of allowing us to evaluate Markstrom, and the potential break for Lack could allow him to regain some of his consistency.

 

[Hodgy]

Several. I'm not going to get into it, but feel free to go over the countless goalie threads discussing these two.

Let's face it: we have seriously downgraded our goaltending and tonight was a prime example. Lack didn't come up with the big save when we needed it. Our secondary scorers showed up. Was nice to see some good plays from Jensen, Schroeder and Kassian.

Yup, it does. Funny how people were quick to say "oh Lack is the best goalie on this team, look at the numbers" but now when Lack is the number 1 and his numbers are falling like a rock people don't want to compare.

I find it ridiculous that you are actually trying to draw meaningful conclusions from these games. The Canucks are terrible and have been for a while. Trying to compare how Lack is playing behind this team to how Luongo played behind the Canucks earlier this year is non-sensical. This team sucks, and Lack's numbers will suffer.

If you want to compare the two goalies' capabilities, why not compare their numbers behind the same team - the one they played behind earlier this year, where Lack was the better goalie.

 

[Ozone]

It's a 3-3 game. You have X goalie in net. The other team gets it's first shot of the whole period because your team has been charging so hard.

It is not a bullet deflection, or a fluke. It is travelling at low velocity. Your goalie is set, square and on angle.

Should goalie X make the save? Yes, yes he should. And that's the standard an NHL STARTER is held to. If he is a rookie, he presumably has earned the position of starter. It doesn't matter if you're Schneider or Luongo or Lack.

Now of course, as the goalie coach and the goalie himself you don't dwell on the goal and make it a huge deal. But he has to understand that's a situation in a game that he is counted on to make a save. He has to know he can't have an average outing every other game, especially if he is being fed starts like he is now.

I expect a lot of Lack, and you don't get better out of a guy by just dismissing a goal like that because he's a rookie.

Do you believe he has earned the starting position, or were there other more pertinent factors involved here?

Holding up Lack to the same standards as Schneider and Luongo is beyond preposterous, and should not need further explaination than what others have mentioned so far.

I, also, expect a lot out of Lack. Yet my expectations are tempered by the reality of his rookie status, the added and rushed pressure brought fourth by the incompetence of Gillis, and some questionable decisions by the coach.

It also doesn't help our rookie goalie when we, the fans, add unneeded and unwarranted pressure by already judging him by previous starters so very soon.

 

[Ozone]

I still don't understand why it's hard to say 'Lack had an average-to-poor game tonight' rather than run in full apology mode for him because he's a rookie. I'm not saying he's a bust.

Nor does 'small sample size' apply here. I've said that LATELY he is struggling and erratic. Even without the caveat of looking at the recent trend, his good game-poor game pattern has run pretty much the entire season with the exception of a good stretch of 6 games near the start of the season.

Since we are no longer in the running for the playoffs, his lack of consistency (pun intended) could be addressed simply by playing Markstrom and not forcing start after start on Lack. This also has the benefit of allowing us to evaluate Markstrom, and the potential break for Lack could allow him to regain some of his consistency.

This post I agree with! Well said.

 

[mossey3535]

Do you believe he has earned the starting position, or were there other more pertinent factors involved here?

Holding up Lack to the same standards as Schneider and Luongo is beyond preposterous, and should not need further explaination than what others have mentioned so far.

I, also, expect a lot out of Lack. Yet my expectations are tempered by the reality of his rookie status, the added and rushed pressure brought fourth by the incompetence of Gillis, and some questionable decisions by the coach.

It also doesn't help our rookie goalie when we, the fans, add unneeded and unwarranted pressure by already judging him by previous starters so very soon.

For the most part, he has earned the starter's job.

However, with that job comes a certain standard. And the standard I am holding him to on the 4th goal is the same as for any NHL starter regardless of experience. They are the starter, so they are held to that standard. And that standard says that if your team has battled back to 3-3, you are being counted on to make a save. And if you don't, you have to own up to it and not say 'it bounced off my guy'.

Tough fourth goal, it deflected off our own guy. I thought we played a really good game and we kind of shot ourselves in the foot a little on their goal...so...

LINK

If the bolded is not him throwing Matthias under the bus, I don't know what is.

There are some mitigating circumstances for his EXTENDED play and again you're not going to harp on this goal too much. But a soft deflection off your own guy happens every game and it CAN be stopped. It SHOULD be stopped especially if you've been weak on previous goals.

Eddie has shown some tendency to throw up his hands and say 'woe is me', and that's the main reason I have issues with the goal and then his subsequent lack of accountability. It's led to bunches of soft goals where it appears he is going through the motions but not really fighting to make the save. In regards to his development these tendencies have to be nipped in the bud now.

My expectations are not unreasonable and would be applied to any other goalie in the league in the same situation. When this is reviewed on film by Lack and Melanson, what will likely be said is "You are not at fault for that goal but it is still your responsibility. You didn't do everything you could to track the deflection, and it was a makable save."

Had the tip been closer, the trajectory changed more or had the velocity of the tip been higher I would not be discussing this particular goal. However, he had already let in two goals I did not like AND neither did he make up for it with big saves prior to this one - so in that particular situation the onus was really on him to contribute to the game and possibly the win.

 

[LiquidSnake]

I find it ridiculous that you are actually trying to draw meaningful conclusions from these games. The Canucks are terrible and have been for a while. Trying to compare how Lack is playing behind this team to how Luongo played behind the Canucks earlier this year is non-sensical. This team sucks, and Lack's numbers will suffer.

If you want to compare the two goalies' capabilities, why not compare their numbers behind the same team - the one they played behind earlier this year, where Lack was the better goalie.

excellent post.

 

[DCantheDDad]

That went about as well as it could, based on the circumstances. Entertaining game and production from the young'uns. Hopefully we can continue to play games like this till the end of the season.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The young guys, Matthias, Jensen, Schroeder, Kassian (and of course Tanev) all looked good tonight. Stanton didn't see a lot of ice time, and Matthias was brutal on face-offs.

That's the big drawback with Matthias. The major caveat with seeing him as a long-term centre solution. He does everything else you want, but his face-off ability needs work. He's got to get to 50% to stay at C.