Future of Leafs D

[francis246]

Hopefully you're wrong and the long overdue pairing change begins Saturday.

to be honest I don't think either one are the answer. We need to just get a legit RHD at the trade deadline and just be done with it lol. Then if Liljegren proves that he's ready for high minutes. We move Brodie to the left and pair him with Lilly and then hope to move Muzzin. I just don't think Holl, Liljegren or Dermott is the answer. We just don't have that top 4 RHD internally right now. But maybe one of Topi or Liljegren emerges as that for us in the future.

 

[Stephen]

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the Muzzin/Holl pairing this year. But, the screaming about both having lost everything that made them a quality shutdown pairing last year...really? They may be less than they were, but that doesn't mean they are trash. It suggests the the team needs to adapt. Thankfully, Sandin and Liljegren are trending in a positive way. Dermott, who has developed less than I'd hoped is still an option and better than most in his 6/7 D position (as I see it at this time). Put Sandin with one of Dermott or Holl, try Liljegren with Muzz and lets see what we have. Don't knee jerk. If you can upgrade, sure, but we've got 7 D who I think can play at an NHL level, that's important, especially in the playoffs. If Rubin proves to be an 8th D who can manage minutes, we're ahead of the game. 25-30 games does not make a season. Unless there is an obvious upside, relax.

I think there's dollar cost to performance threshold that governs how much the Leafs can nonchalantly watch Muzzin decline, if he is declining, before they simply need to make a proactive move to salvage his cap space and continue their upward climb towards contender status. So yes, I think Sandin and Liljegren will have to cycle up and Muzzin and Holl can take on less workload. But to a point.

Holl isn't a huge cap hit but it seems like his serviceability is closely linked to Muzzin's quality of play, so the Leafs may or may not choose to dump the whole $7 million + on the pair and spend their money on other things.

One of the interesting things to see is how quickly Kristians Rubins is getting an NHL look from his ECHL undrafted origins. Here's a guy with a serious pro frame who can play a real day to day role and you can see him rising the charts on that basis. Shows the real value of drafting those bigger bodies (who can play). One of the reasons I would have enjoyed seeing Braden Schneider become a Leaf, though Amirov can be great too.

 

[ULF_55]

Liljegren looks solid.

He has made that clear to everyone.

Of course that isn't good news to some obvious and opposed fans.

 

[wingman75]

I think you keep Muzzin. I feel he will settle into a more consistent game.

As some of the posters have noted, as bad as Holl and Muzzin have been the team is geneally excelling. They are the weak point in the D though, especially when playing together.

TSN had some great telestrator work showing why Holl is causing trouble when he gets the puck... very slow in reading the play, and then even slower in executing the play he decides on. Bit of a disaster without the puck too... bad reads, weak and off balance.

This team, and most in the NHL, are better when the puck is moved quickly... neither of them are doing that often enough.

So, in saying we should keep Muzzin I don't have a lot of confidence Holl returns to the stable play we saw from him for most of last season. I guess he has time to show it, as I doubt Dubas does much until we are on the other side of the Olympic break. By then things should be clearer wrt Holl, Sandin, Liljegren, Dermott and Rubins (Rubich). Unless Rubins really shows something in the next little while, I would like a veteran brought in I think (money dependent).

 

[Stephen]

I think you keep Muzzin. I feel he will settle into a more consistent game.

As some of the posters have noted, as bad as Holl and Muzzin have been the team is geneally excelling. They are the weak point in the D though, especially when playing together.

TSN had some great telestrator work showing why Holl is causing trouble when he gets the puck... very slow in reading the play, and then even slower in executing the play he decides on. Bit of a disaster without the puck too... bad reads, weak and off balance.

This team, and most in the NHL, are better when the puck is moved quickly... neither of them are doing that often enough.

So, in saying we should keep Muzzin I don't have a lot of confidence Holl returns to the stable play we saw from him for most of last season. I guess he has time to show it, as I doubt Dubas does much until we are on the other side of the Olympic break. By then things should be clearer wrt Holl, Sandin, Liljegren, Dermott and Rubins (Rubich). Unless Rubins really shows something in the next little while, I would like a veteran brought in I think (money dependent).

Holl struggles because he loses focus on what makes him a reliable defensive defenseman and starts dabbling in rushing the puck, pinching in the offensive zone and either thinks he can run and gun and hunt for offense with the big dogs. If he just kept it really basic, focused on being a disruptor with his long frame and didn't go roving he would be more consistently effective.

 

[wingman75]

Holl struggles because he loses focus on what makes him a reliable defensive defenseman and starts dabbling in rushing the puck, pinching in the offensive zone and either thinks he can run and gun and hunt for offense with the big dogs. If he just kept it really basic, focused on being a disruptor with his long frame and didn't go roving he would be more consistently effective.

Don't disagree. I just don't think he reads the play quick enough... and probably overestimates his ability to make certain plays. Even if he read the wrong play but made a quick and hard pass for example, the damage would be much less. I despise players that are soft on the puck, especially in the defensive zone. We have eliminated a lot of these type of players over the last couple years (losing a good one in Hyman).

But yea, if he kept it simple, moved the puck on the first open read the team would be much better off. We do not need any points from him... like zero. We need him to be at worst an even player every shift.

Fully agree with the roving part... he gets himself out of position with his puck watching big time.

I am sure he has been told this... so the question now is, is he willing to be the player he is or continue to be the one he is not?

 

[darrylsittler27]

The thread says the future d. It's solid with Sandin, Lily,Dermott and Niemela. Reilly is signed so now we need some bigger, defensive types to come out of left field.

 

[Antropovsky]

I think there's dollar cost to performance threshold that governs how much the Leafs can nonchalantly watch Muzzin decline, if he is declining, before they simply need to make a proactive move to salvage his cap space and continue their upward climb towards contender status. So yes, I think Sandin and Liljegren will have to cycle up and Muzzin and Holl can take on less workload. But to a point.

Holl isn't a huge cap hit but it seems like his serviceability is closely linked to Muzzin's quality of play, so the Leafs may or may not choose to dump the whole $7 million + on the pair and spend their money on other things.

One of the interesting things to see is how quickly Kristians Rubins is getting an NHL look from his ECHL undrafted origins. Here's a guy with a serious pro frame who can play a real day to day role and you can see him rising the charts on that basis. Shows the real value of drafting those bigger bodies (who can play). One of the reasons I would have enjoyed seeing Braden Schneider become a Leaf, though Amirov can be great too.

I agree... i think the leafs are losing big as they continue to let assets just expire or spent high picks on rentals. Looking for Dubas to make more "tough" decisions with this group to initiate change and to improve the team. looking at our team currently, the recent additions seem to have really provided a physical boost to this team and at the least have given this roster more of an identity. Now that he has a taste of these players i think Dubas will continue to look to add them.

 

[zeke]

I agree... i think the leafs are losing big as they continue to let assets just expire or spent high picks on rentals. Looking for Dubas to make more "tough" decisions with this group to initiate change and to improve the team. looking at our team currently, the recent additions seem to have really provided a physical boost to this team and at the least have given this roster more of an identity. Now that he has a taste of these players i think Dubas will continue to look to add them.

He's been adding them from the start.

 

[123offtheglass]

Thread title should be: "Future of Leafs D this season", I think Topi Niemela will be a stud for them in the future.

I don't expect Muzzin to be better than he's been the past couple seasons, but he can turn things around from a poor start. He's been great as a Leaf & is the type of guy you want going into the playoffs.

Even with Holl underperforming, the Leafs still have one of the better top 7s in the league & you'd have a hard time finding a better bottom 3.

 

[fillkessel]

Ya, these guys had a bad game we should DEFINITELY get rid of them. And let’s not forget Campbell let in more than 2 goals so he’s gone too. And matthews didn’t score last game either so we should look at some better options for 1C for sure

 

[justashadowof]

Holl struggles because he loses focus on what makes him a reliable defensive defenseman and starts dabbling in rushing the puck, pinching in the offensive zone and either thinks he can run and gun and hunt for offense with the big dogs. If he just kept it really basic, focused on being a disruptor with his long frame and didn't go roving he would be more consistently effective.

There are times this season I think I've witnessed him struggle with the most basic of tasks expected from a defensive defenseman:
- passing the puck in a controllable way to his defense partner
- knowing when to attempt a breakout pass to a moving forward
- when to resort to ringing the puck around the boards
- keeping his man to the outside on an even man rush

 

[justashadowof]

I agree... i think the leafs are losing big as they continue to let assets just expire or spent high picks on rentals. Looking for Dubas to make more "tough" decisions with this group to initiate change and to improve the team. looking at our team currently, the recent additions seem to have really provided a physical boost to this team and at the least have given this roster more of an identity. Now that he has a taste of these players i think Dubas will continue to look to add them.

There's another form of waste that us fans who are too interested in forward looking machinations of team building often overlook. That form of waste is having 4 in-their-prime star forwards forced to make due with a support cast with exploitable holes in it. If the Leafs won the Cup this season after spending more draft picks and prospects, it would be absolutely worth it no matter the future losses.

 

[Terrible GM]

Rielly 27 --- Lilljegren 22
Sandin 21 -- Niemela 19
Rubins 24 -- Dermott 25​

Skill wise this looks promising, but don't you think that D core will be a bit soft come playoffs? Couple things I have concerns about, Lily if not defensive enough to play with Rielly. We have seen the stability of what Brodie has brought. We need a type like that in the top pairing. I'm not questioning his skill, he is just not at a defensive level that Brodie is and I don't think he ever will be.

I haven't seen enough from Rubins at the NHL level to think he can be part of the solution, but can't dismiss his potential either. I haven't seen much at all in physicality from him, which is always a little disappointing when you see a big player. Very good skater for the size which is great. I'd say either Rubins or Dermott will need to give way to someone who can physically clear players in front of the net or lay a good hit, and I don't think we have that player in the system.

 

[Antropovsky]

There's another form of waste that us fans who are too interested in forward looking machinations of team building often overlook. That form of waste is having 4 in-their-prime star forwards forced to make due with a support cast with exploitable holes in it. If the Leafs won the Cup this season after spending more draft picks and prospects, it would be absolutely worth it no matter the future losses.

My point is dont target rentals but maybe target a player with term like Tampa did with Coleman.

 

[zeke]

Skill wise this looks promising, but don't you think that D core will be a bit soft come playoffs? Couple things I have concerns about, Lily if not defensive enough to play with Rielly. We have seen the stability of what Brodie has brought. We need a type like that in the top pairing. I'm not questioning his skill, he is just not at a defensive level that Brodie is and I don't think he ever will be.

I haven't seen enough from Rubins at the NHL level to think he can be part of the solution, but can't dismiss his potential either. I haven't seen much at all in physicality from him, which is always a little disappointing when you see a big player. Very good skater for the size which is great. I'd say either Rubins or Dermott will need to give way to someone who can physically clear players in front of the net or lay a good hit, and I don't think we have that player in the system.

To answer your questions:

1. I don't worry about toughness. I care about quality more.

2. I think Lilly is even stronger defensively than he is offensively. I think he has e every chance to be a brodie level defensive player but with more size and offense.

3. I've liked Rubins a few years now and I'm not surprised that he looks good in his debut here. He's got size mobility hands and good instincts. He actually is fairly physical but again it's not something I worry about too much.

 

[shaner8989]

Rubins showing he can definitely play in the show. Big body that can skate and move the puck.

 

[justashadowof]

My point is dont target rentals but maybe target a player with term like Tampa did with Coleman.

It's ideal to target players who can fit for longer than 1 playoff run. In the Leafs' case under Dubas it has been Muzzin and Campbell as prime examples of what you're talking about. I don't think the Leafs need a Coleman type badly, although any upgrade at any position obviously helps, they'll need a defenseman. I'm willing for a rental on defense because Liljegren could move up next or a 2nd pairing right side D could be the primary target in the summer 2022.

 

[Dayjobdave]

To answer your questions:

1. I don't worry about toughness. I care about quality more.

2. I think Lilly is even stronger defensively than he is offensively. I think he has e every chance to be a brodie level defensive player but with more size and offense.

3. I've liked Rubins a few years now and I'm not surprised that he looks good in his debut here. He's got size mobility hands and good instincts. He actually is fairly physical but again it's not something I worry about too much.

I agree on all points.

I sometimes wish for more defensive toughness for in front of our net during the playoffs. The challenge is whenever we have that kind of player the refs seem to get good at picking up fowls and we end up chronically short handed.

Lilly, Sandin, Niemela, Rubins, these guys can all play

 

[Legion34]

Most realistically this year.

When healthy.

rielly. Brodie
Muzz. Lilly
Sandin. Holl

dermott for pick to alleviate cap crunch.

This year hope for a d trade.
Zub. 2.5. Owed 3.5 for next year.
Lub.
Braun.

if we shoot for bigger with retention. Could look at gio or dehaan.

next year I’m kinda hoping muzz is either gone (back to lA. Doughty has a big say) or is on third pair. Try to get a top 4. Maybe. Gio.

rielly. Brodie
Gio. Lilly
Muzz. Sandin


That would work

 

[Ciao]

I would like to see more of Liljegren on the second defence pair as of now.

Holl might look better on the third pair, too.

 

[Antropovsky]

It's ideal to target players who can fit for longer than 1 playoff run. In the Leafs' case under Dubas it has been Muzzin and Campbell as prime examples of what you're talking about. I don't think the Leafs need a Coleman type badly, although any upgrade at any position obviously helps, they'll need a defenseman. I'm willing for a rental on defense because Liljegren could move up next or a 2nd pairing right side D could be the primary target in the summer 2022.

Muzzin being the only significant addition more than a rental.... Campbell was picked up in a backup capacity, i dont think even Dubas expected him to take over the #1 role.

 

[TheScandal89]

Anyone know about Kral? I thought he maybe had a chance to be a good bottom pairing LD in the future. Anyone know how he's doing, he's played in nearly every marlie game but I never hear anything about him

 

[Cappuccino]

Most realistically this year.

When healthy.

rielly. Brodie
Muzz. Lilly
Sandin. Holl

dermott for pick to alleviate cap crunch.

This year hope for a d trade.
Zub. 2.5. Owed 3.5 for next year.
Lub.
Braun.

if we shoot for bigger with retention. Could look at gio or dehaan.

next year I’m kinda hoping muzz is either gone (back to lA. Doughty has a big say) or is on third pair. Try to get a top 4. Maybe. Gio.

rielly. Brodie
Gio. Lilly
Muzz. Sandin


That would work

If you expect Gio to sign, you will need to trade Muzzin (because Sandin and Lilly need a new deal, also Campbell and Kase), because money need to come from somewhere.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Get rid of Holl first please. He's one of the worst D-men I've seen in a loooong time. I dunno wtf happened to this guy. I'd still like to hold on to Muzzin, he's a big physical D man. He hasn't been good this year but I still believe he can turn it around.

Rielly - Brodie
Sandin - Lily
Muzzin - *Manson (make it happen Dubas)

And you can play around with the bottom 2 pairings, swap Lily/Manson so you have some mobility and physicality on every pairing.

2 rookies on the 2nd pair? I don't know about that, that's risky