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WC: For those who complain about say Italy, Latvia, Team GB, France or Norway in the world Championships?

Jumptheshark

Jumptheshark

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Oct 12, 2003
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About 10 years ago, Germany and the Swiss would have been on that list. By having lambs sent to slaughter on the world stage--it has grown the game in those two countries--kids who previous would have played football--started playing hockey because they saw their country playing in the worlds and it motivated and inspired them to take up the game. Both countries are starting to produce stars and it is due to the fact their countries played in games where they knew they were going to get their asses kick.

It motivated them to get better and they did and that has grown the game in places where 10 to 20 years ago it was an after thought.

What has the NHL done to grow the country in those countries? Last World Cup they put them on team Europe and offended many countries.

As a Canadian living in Europe I enjoy the party that happens every year at the worlds and the fact that so many fans of the lambs always attend the game. Annoyed team GB got relegated but with the Hungarians coming back up it will be a party and that is part of the joy of the games
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I like having those teams in the tourney too. Personally, I think the IHWC does a pretty good job with the promotion / relegation system.

I don't really agree with your comparison to Switzerland and Germany though - those two have been mainstays in the top pool (junior and senior) for the last 20 years; but maybe a team like Denmark is a better comparison?
 
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Zenos said:
I like having those teams in the tourney too. Personally, I think the IHWC does a pretty good job with the promotion / relegation system.

I don't really agree with your comparison to Switzerland and Germany though - those two have been mainstays in the top pool (junior and senior) for the last 20 years; but maybe a team like Denmark is a better comparison?
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they are mainstays who often finished 2nd last in their division many years--WHen the NHL used TEAM EUROPE that told what they nhl thought of many countries including Germany and the Swiss--they did not understand how much money they pissed out the window by not having either country in it
 
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Jumptheshark said:
they are mainstays who often finished 2nd last in their division many years--WHen the NHL used TEAM EUROPE that told what they nhl thought of many countries including Germany and the Swiss--they did not understand how much money they pissed out the window by not having either country in it
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Again, I'm agreeing your initial point in theory. I like having the "lesser" hockey nations take part - just pointing out the differences in your argument.
Both Switzerland and Germany regularly finished safely outside the relegation pool, with the lone exception of that one time Germany got relegated and then promptly won the B-championships the next year. They in fact did not "often" finish second-last in their division.
And while they weren't producing stars, both countries had a handful of players on NHL rosters. Putting them on the same tier as current GB, Hungary, Italy, etc. is just a bit off. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not exactly sure what the NHL-organized World Cup has to to do with any of that. But I agree that they dropped the ball with that tournament.
 
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I see even some people say that middle nations like Sweden and Denmark dont belong. People want top 8 tournament.

I think we should expand WC. Get Poland in, and back with Italy and UK and keep slovenia and hungary in aswell. They wont make a fool of themself.
 
Who has ever complained about Latvia at the IHWC? Elite U18/U20 is a different story tho.
 
Jumptheshark said:
they are mainstays who often finished 2nd last in their division many years--WHen the NHL used TEAM EUROPE that told what they nhl thought of many countries including Germany and the Swiss--they did not understand how much money they pissed out the window by not having either country in it
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Situation for both of these countries hasn't changed all that much in the last decade. The turn for Switzerland happened in the late 90s: they've been a solid team at the WC for most of that timeframe.

For Germany, you could argue that their place in the hockey hierarchy hasn't really changed much in the past 50 years: solid, but always just outside the real contenders. Remember that they were the team chosen to round out the top 7 teams in the 96 and 04 World Cups, and they didn't really embarrass themselves, even beating the Czechs in 96. They've been a routine 4th to 9th finisher for about as long as international hockey has existed, and their still pretty much there (though of course it's tougher to make the quarters at the WC today than it was in the 50s).

I mean, I agree with your overall point; I like seeing lower teams in this tournament, and I think it's good for the sport. I just think it takes longer than you suggest; even for a country with the necessary resources and infrastructure for growth, it takes decades for a fringe team to become a solid team at the WC Elite level.
 
I want the NHL/IIHF to partner to create a 3 on 3 world championship.

Make the all-star game every two years. In Summer Olympic years instead of all-star/Olympic break have 3-7 days off to do a 3 on 3 world championships. Smaller rosters mean that fewer players are needed to compete and the second and third tier nations have a better chance to compete. If all goes well get 3 on 3 in the Olympics too like basketball has.

Imagine a Germany with Draisaitl, Stützle, and Seider. They could be a competitive team, generate excitement, and hopefully if they won a championship or Olympic medal they could get more German kids playing hockey.
 
saskriders said:
I want the NHL/IIHF to partner to create a 3 on 3 world championship.

Make the all-star game every two years. In Summer Olympic years instead of all-star/Olympic break have 3-7 days off to do a 3 on 3 world championships. Smaller rosters mean that fewer players are needed to compete and the second and third tier nations have a better chance to compete. If all goes well get 3 on 3 in the Olympics too like basketball has.

Imagine a Germany with Draisaitl, Stützle, and Seider. They could be a competitive team, generate excitement, and hopefully if they won a championship or Olympic medal they could get more German kids playing hockey.
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nice sounding idea, but if the state of Rugby 7s is anything to go by, it won't work. It's a nice side-show that fits more naturally into a smaller tournament window, but outside the Olympics most people don't really give a damn about it, and the players who do play regularly for their national sides are almost always players who failed to make it in the professional 15s game.
What's been a much bigger catalyst for development of the sport in the more peripheral countries in rugby (Georgia, Japan and Uruguay to give a few recent examples) is exposure to the game at full international level in World Cups. Even though they've taken a few drummings along the way, they're arguably better off for it taking that approach, and not trying to seek out more immediate rewards in some Fisher-Price version of the sport.
 
Jumptheshark said:
they are mainstays who often finished 2nd last in their division many years--WHen the NHL used TEAM EUROPE that told what they nhl thought of many countries including Germany and the Swiss--they did not understand how much money they pissed out the window by not having either country in it
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The NHL used Team Europe as much because of logistics and competitiveness as they did because of views of the countries involved. Note that Slovakia was also one of the countries included there: 4 Germans, 3 Swiss and 7 Slovaks made up well over half that team. And they were competitive, mostly off the backs of Zuccs, Kopitar and those 14 players (especially Halak), losing the finals to the powerhouse Canadian team.
 
why you include Latvia in this conversation? we beat you last year and havent been out of competition for 20 years. must be referees hurting your back a bit, eat your own medicine bonzo
 
were big an were bad and than this little referee bit that brakes you like a little shaite ))
 
Kuljeskelen said:
Finland used to be one of those lambs sent against the Soviets, Czechoslovakia and Sweden. I support inclusion.
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Those were the years when Finnish NHL players could be counted with one hand. Kurri, Tikkanen, Ruuttu, Numminen and Lumme were pretty much it. And before the iron curtain collapsed all the Czechoslovakia and Soviet talent played in their domestic leagues. It was very different time back then.

Great Britain took a point from Norway and Italy similarly tied France on regulation. But they were clearly the two weakest teams of the tournament and if being honest probably are more division 1A level.
 
oh, you from GB, including you and Latvia in same sentance, fine, whats your U18 and u20 success been lately? we played Canada U18 1/4 finals 2018 1:2 if thats says anything to you. your guys look like beer leageuers rough and rowdy haha
 
adolfz said:
oh, you from GB, including you and Latvia in same sentance, fine, whats your U18 and u20 success been lately? we played Canada U18 1/4 finals 2018 1:2 if thats says anything to you. your guys look like beer leageuers rough and rowdy haha
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Not to forget, Latvia won over Sweden in U18 WC, same Sweden who won the gold.
 
Leafsdude7 said:
The NHL used Team Europe as much because of logistics and competitiveness as they did because of views of the countries involved. Note that Slovakia was also one of the countries included there: 4 Germans, 3 Swiss and 7 Slovaks made up well over half that team. And they were competitive, mostly off the backs of Zuccs, Kopitar and those 14 players (especially Halak), losing the finals to the powerhouse Canadian team.
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Slovakia, Germany and Switzerland are competitive on their own. Would also like to see Denmark in best on best tournament. The Swiss have been a tough opponent even to Canada in best on best olympics.
 
adolfz said:
oh, you from GB, including you and Latvia in same sentance, fine, whats your U18 and u20 success been lately? we played Canada U18 1/4 finals 2018 1:2 if thats says anything to you. your guys look like beer leageuers rough and rowdy haha
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Wasn't the initial comment from a Canadian?
 
First of all, no one's complaining about Latvia being in the World championships. They are a legimate threat to make the quarter finals in any given year.

Second of all, ten years ago, both Germany and Switzerland were still miles ahead of what Italy or Great Britain are now. Heck, nine years ago Switzerland nearly won gold (lost to Sweden in the shootout) and twelve years ago Germany were in the semi finals and barely lost to Russia (1-2) and then again barely lost to Sweden in the bronze medal game (1-3).

If you expect Italy and Great Britain to get such results in ten or even twenty years, you will be dissappointed. Italy has been around the top division since forever, and have yet to made any strides.
 
adolfz said:
why you include Latvia in this conversation? we beat you last year and havent been out of competition for 20 years. must be referees hurting your back a bit, eat your own medicine bonzo
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Latvia's really good, very annoying opponent for Finland in a good way :laugh:. I'll always cheer for them!
 
This just a flat out bad comparison. Germany and Switzerland are host to really good domestic leagues, top 5 in all of Europe, that require a high-level of play to reach. Switzerland finished 4th in the IIHF World Championships in 1992 with draws to Canada and Russia in group play. Germany finished 5th in the IIIHF World Championships in 1993 with wins over Finland and USA in group play. Germany and Switzerland are each top 10 in terms of NHL players produced all time and consistently year-to-year, and not in the UK sense of players that were born 100 years ago and like 2 since then, of players that were born in the UK and raised in Canada (Ken Hodge and Peter Lee).

Of the group mentioned, Latvia has a nice hockey tradition, it's just small and not particularly wealthy enough to have a super rich hockey infrastructure. Norway has a moderate to ok hockey tradition, but it's not as popular compared to other winter sports. Great Britain and Italy have almost zero hockey tradition. I'll give the brits props in that a few years ago a British trained player was drafted into the NHL for the first time ever about four years ago. People do need to be realistic if they think these countries are going to turn into the next Switzerland and Germany in the next 20 years.
 
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Pot 1

Canada
Russia
United States
Finland

Pot 2

Sweden
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Switzerland

Pot 3

Germany
Denmark
Latvia
Belarus

Pot 4

France
Austria
Norway
Kazakhstan

16 teams world cup every 4 years, in summer. 3 games in group stage. Top 2 qualify for 1/4.
 
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