Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Rich Nixon]

don't be that guy, its nauseating dealing with white knighting and virtue-signaling when it comes to the obviously heinous.
It reeks of social insecurity to have to be that guy.

My guy, we're talking about the concept of a "violent crime." No one is "white knighting and virtue-signaling," they're explaining "facts" to people who are speaking without them. Sexual assault is considered a violent crime. Period.

Semantics. This obviousliy wasnt' a back alley rape with a weapon. I was referring to cases like that, murder, armed robbery, etc. more serious crimes....

There's a good chance imo that a deal taken in this case would come with a discharge and no permanent public criminal record. Just my opinion.

You should take a break here because the hole is getting so goddamn deep. Your opinion is silly and not rooted in any sort of legal understanding or precedent. You're basically trying to figure out what your personal definition of "violence" is and how that may be applied to a gradient of offenses in complete ignorance how the law prioritizes them.

 

[Edgelord]

You literally said "rape is not always violent". Maybe you meant "sexual assault" is not always violent, but rape is pretty specific and inherently violent. But go ahead, get big mad because you misspoke (or are just ignorant).

but rape isn't always violent, ie Bill Cosby.
I get what you're saying but technically not all rapes include violence.
Don't take that to mean I condone any form of rape

 

[Edgelord]

My guy, we're talking about the concept of a "violent crime." No one is "white knighting and virtual-signaling," they're explaining "facts" to people who are speaking without them. Sexual assault is considered a violent crime. Period.

is it?
I was under the impression crimes like date rape were not handled by the violent crimes unit.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

but rape isn't always violent, ie Bill Cosby.
I get what you're saying but technically not all rapes include violence.
Don't take that to mean I condone any form of rape

Rape is inherently violent, drugging someone and sexually abusing them is violent. Violence doesn't have to be striking someone or using a weapon to inflict damage on someone. I guess we just understand things very differently.

 

[roon]

At least you admit to your efforts to downplay the seriousness of this probable sexual assault by multiple perpetrators. Not everyone who thinks this is forthright about it.
a player and his 4 or five friends sexually assaulting her is not that serious because I have a hypothetical version of it involving a back alley that I've made up to make the real life one seem less serious

Probable sexual assault? I mean - there is an attorney on record saying she has seen video of the accuser saying it was consensual several times. I'm not sure how you define probable...but our definitions vary greatly.

 

[Rich Nixon]

is it?
I was under the impression crimes like date rape were not handled by the violent crimes unit.

Do you know anything about what you're typing or are you just typing shit? Here is the organizational chart for the London, Ontario police department. Do you see the phrase "violent crimes unit" here?

If you are this uninformed, don't participate.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

but rape is pretty specific and inherently violent

Not true at all as rape really just requires a non-consensual sexual act against a person, or even consensual in the case of statutory rape. See The Crime of Rape Under California Law - Penal Code 261 for a pretty good explanation.

 

[Edgelord]

Do you know anything about what you're typing or are you just typing shit? Here is the organizational chart for the London, Ontario police department. Do you see the phrase "violent crimes unit" here?

If you are this uninformed, don't participate.

the name of the division is semantics

 

[4thline]

No one is "white knighting and virtual-signaling,"

Maybe not in this particular branch of the convo, but I'm still a little piqued about someone charging in on their high horse to imply that I'm a closeted rapist that shouldn't drink because of comments on pharmacological reality and pointing out the documented risks of mixing alcohol and sex

 

[Rich Nixon]

the name of the division is semantics

Technically, this is all semantics, because "semantics" refers to discussions about words and their meanings. But you're participating, and you're showing your ass.

You're literally operating off of definitions of crimes and legal concepts you've made up in your mind in the total absence of any real information about them. You hinged one misconception (that sexual assault is not inherently viewed as a violent crime) on another misunderstanding (that police departments have something called a "violent crimes unit" whose participation in an investigation was the determinant of whether an alleged crime constituted a "violent" one).

You don't escape that by going "well THAT part is semantics!" This whole conversation is semantics. You're participating in a lot of semantics yourself. Really badly.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Yeah, agreed. There isn't going to be a situation where Player 1 is completely exonerated and welcomed back to the NHL. This will, at best for the players, be a situation where shady things happened, but the crown couldn't quite meet the evidenciary standard for a conviction. The court of public opinion has a different standard. I don't think any of these 5 players are playing another NHL game, regardless of how things play out in the courtroom.

I agree. I think they're f***ed regardless.

 

[Edgelord]

Rape is inherently violent, drugging someone and sexually abusing them is violent. Violence doesn't have to be striking someone or using a weapon to inflict damage on someone. I guess we just understand things very differently.

We seem to come at it from different angles, I start with the assumption that everyone feels the alleged incident is heinous. So when discussing both sides I don't ever think they're ok with rape.

Maybe not in this particular branch of the convo, but I'm still a little piqued about someone charging in on their high horse to imply that I'm a closeted rapist that shouldn't drink because of comments on pharmacological reality and pointing out the documented risks of mixing alcohol and sex

having to condemn the obviously heinous is such an annoying reality of today.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you haven't had your morning coffee and aren't fully processing.

This is super basic, commonly accepted stuff.

Growing Up, Hooking Up, and Drinking: A Review of Uncommitted Sexual Behavior and Its Association With Alcohol Use and Related Consequences Among Adolescents and Young Adults in the United States - PMC

Hookups are uncommitted sexual encounters that range from kissing to intercourse and occur between individuals in whom there is no current dating relationship and no expressed or acknowledged expectations of a relationship following the hookup. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Alcohol myopia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alcohol adds risk to casual sexual encounters. If you're warning sons about those risks, the effect on their own actions is a bigger concern than being falsely accused.

I mean what you are quoting here is valid but eight drunk guys in a room on top of someone is reeeeeally straining the definition of a confusing causal hookup. Unless you are passed out in a corner pissing your pants, common sense would tell you that's not a room you should be in.

 

[Strangle]

So women cant drink alcohol and shouldnt have sexual intercourse... right.

Do you live in 1150?

It’s irresponsible of a parent not to teach their children that there are predators out there.

We don’t let our kids walk home from school alone, because there are predators out there. We teach them not to get into cars of people they may know or may not know unless we tell them it’s okay.

You’re damn right I teach my daughters that these types of predators exist and will take advantage of them the first chance they get if they find themselves in a vulnerable position.

What the f*** are you even talking about?

pedo’s shouldn’t snatch little kids, murders shouldn’t dump hookers bodies into the river and young hockey players shouldn’t rape young women.

Yet here we are

 

[Strangle]

ah yes we must deflect at least some amount of responsibility for the sexual assault she was a victim of, onto her, and we must defend that stance if there is any push back because that is much easier than self reflection...it's clear to me that many of you don't know any women, or certainly didn't when you were college aged, because so many are acting like getting drunk at a bar and having a 1 night stand with a guy is a coin flip for rape that all women should know as fact, yet it happens many times a night with neither party feeling wronged...most guys aren't trying to pick up a girl and then have his friends run train against her will; this is well beyond a conflict or 'misunderstanding' between 2 people.

It's very strange that people are acting like it is a moral failing for a women to drink and have casual sex, and that doing so make you more accountable for a crime of this nature being perpetrated against you. It just wreaks of identifying with the guys in the position of doing a sexual assault much more so than the victim.

You sound like you have no idea about the statistics of rape on campuses

 

[Mrb1p]

It’s irresponsible of a parent not to teach their children that there are predators out there.

We don’t let our kids walk home from school alone, because there are predators out there. We teach them not to get into cars of people they may know or may not know unless we tell them it’s okay.

You’re damn right I teach my daughters that these types of predators exist and will take advantage of them the first chance they get if they find themselves in a vulnerable position.

What the f*** are you even talking about?

pedo’s shouldn’t snatch little kids, murders shouldn’t dump hookers bodies into the river and young hockey players shouldn’t rape young women.

Yet here we are

And when your kids get snatched while walking home from school, is your first reaction going to be "that guy is a POG, but my kids shouldve known better than to live their normal lives"

Of course not. Stop victim blaming on all accounts, playing devils advocate is just stupid as hell. The blame is 100% on these kids, no one else. (Well, id blame institutions, parenting, media and a lot of other things but they are the primary vector)

Women living their every day lives should never even be mentionned in this case, aside from well-wishes.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

It’s irresponsible of a parent not to teach their children that there are predators out there.

We don’t let our kids walk home from school alone, because there are predators out there. We teach them not to get into cars of people they may know or may not know unless we tell them it’s okay.

You’re damn right I teach my daughters that these types of predators exist and will take advantage of them the first chance they get if they find themselves in a vulnerable position.

What the f*** are you even talking about?

pedo’s shouldn’t snatch little kids, murders shouldn’t dump hookers bodies into the river and young hockey players shouldn’t rape young women.

Yet here we are

Literally no one is saying it's irresponsible to teach their kids to be careful. As an adult making adult choices for themselves, women do in fact have a right to drink, get drunk, and not be assaulted. It is nearly impossible for a someone to predict when that right is about to be taken from them.

 

[Edgelord]

It’s irresponsible of a parent not to teach their children that there are predators out there.

We don’t let our kids walk home from school alone, because there are predators out there. We teach them not to get into cars of people they may know or may not know unless we tell them it’s okay.

You’re damn right I teach my daughters that these types of predators exist and will take advantage of them the first chance they get if they find themselves in a vulnerable position.

What the f*** are you even talking about?

pedo’s shouldn’t snatch little kids, murders shouldn’t dump hookers bodies into the river and young hockey players shouldn’t rape young women.

Yet here we are

100%
its like point out how alcohol is a major contributing factor
then there is always people coming back with
"why do you hate women!?"
its like the whole mechanism of debate and discussion is broken

 

[Number8]

just for clarity rape isn't always violent, violent rapes will usually get an aggrivated sexual charge which is way more serious

I get what you are saying but I think that is parsing the issue too much for me.

If someone is effectively forced to have sex -- whether it be through actual physical violence, intimidation, coercion, threats, whatever..... that's "violent" enough for me.

It's a f***ing disgraceful and awful act to "force" someone to have sex -- no matter what lever is used to do the forcing. About as big a personal invasion that anyone can experience.

I think if you gave any woman - or man for that matter - the choice between having their toe smashed with a hammer or being forced to have "non violent" unwanted penetrative sex the numbers would be heavily skewed towards walking with a limp for a long while.

Let alone being slapped, ejaculated on, sworn at, spit one and God knows what else has been alleged.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

My guy, we're talking about the concept of a "violent crime." No one is "white knighting and virtual-signaling," they're explaining "facts" to people who are speaking without them. Sexual assault is considered a violent crime. Period.



You should take a break here because the hole is getting so goddamn deep. Your opinion is silly and not rooted in any sort of legal understanding or precedent. You're basically trying to figure out what your personal definition of "violence" is and how that may be applied to a gradient of offenses in complete ignorance how the law prioritizes them.

You can spare me lecture on the seriousness of their charges/allegations, i know what theyre accused of and what could be facing. And perhaps scrutinize the legal opinions of other posters who claim a plea deal is some auto career killer, never lets them enter the US states again, yada yada...etc.

I was invovled in an area of law for some time, i follow high profile and public cases and how they end up, it interests me. I gave an opinion based on that, i've seen similar cases receive deals where they avoid jail time and get a discharge.

if that opinions offends you and you think it's crazily far fetched or that it's some lack of empathy, i think youre the one who should take a break and perhaps look into it with less emotion and more logic.

 

[Mrb1p]

100%
its like point out how alcohol is a major contributing factor
then there is always people coming back with
"why do you hate women!?"
its like the whole mechanism of debate and discussion is broken

You may not like this but, and I havent read your response so see if the hat fits, but it is highly likely that even if you come from a very good place in your heart, you see women/females as inferior and need to protect them, here by spreading your own knowledge and warning to them and also by acknowledging they are in danger with the opposite sex/gender.

Introspection is very powerful. Take this as you will, Im not accusing anyone but I know theres people in this thread doing this. The person you quoted just did. Again, it is not inherently bad and I am not here to tell anyone they are a bad person.

 

[HBK27]

ah yes we must deflect at least some amount of responsibility for the sexual assault she was a victim of, onto her, and we must defend that stance if there is any push back because that is much easier than self reflection...it's clear to me that many of you don't know any women, or certainly didn't when you were college aged, because so many are acting like getting drunk at a bar and having a 1 night stand with a guy is a coin flip for rape that all women should know as fact, yet it happens many times a night with neither party feeling wronged...most guys aren't trying to pick up a girl and then have his friends run train against her will; this is well beyond a conflict or 'misunderstanding' between 2 people.

It's very strange that people are acting like it is a moral failing for a women to drink and have casual sex, and that doing so make you more accountable for a crime of this nature being perpetrated against you. It just wreaks of identifying with the guys in the position of doing a sexual assault much more so than the victim.

Can you really not comprehend the difference between responsibility and risk? Is that concept really so difficult?

As I already clearly stated, "if these allegations are true the players themselves are 100% at fault". I am in no way trying to shift some of the blame to the alleged victim. A vast, vast majority of drunken hook-ups with strangers do not involve sexual assault and that is certainly a reasonable expectation.

But do you really think that putting yourself in that situation doesn't increase the risk of something like that happening? Do you really believe that (theoretically) if a woman were to have 100 drunken one-night stands with strangers that she's just as likely as being the victim of a sexual assault as someone that doesn't put themselves in that situation? Not sure why it is so controversial to acknowledge this without someone completely taking the comment out of context and accusing me of victim blaming or being a rape apologist.

As far as the rest of the rest of your nonsense, at no point did I remotely come close to making any moral judgements, nor did I suggest that rape was a "coin flip" or remotely common or that this was a "misunderstanding" and I met my wife of 20 years back when we were both at college, so get out of here with that crap as well.

 

[Edgelord]

I get what you are saying but I think that is parsing the issue too much for me.

If someone is effectively forced to have sex -- whether it be through actual physical violence, intimidation, coercion, threats, whatever..... that's "violent" enough for me.

It's a f***ing disgraceful and awful act to "force" someone to have sex -- no matter what lever is used to do the forcing. About as big a personal invasion that anyone can experience.

I think if you gave any woman - or man for that matter - the choice between having their toe smashed with a hammer or being forced to have "non violent" unwanted penetrative sex the numbers would be heavily skewed towards walking with a limp for a long while.

Let alone being slapped, ejaculated on, sworn at, spit one and God knows what else has been alleged.

I hear ya, and agree, but I was arguing off of the classic definition of violence and I wasn't trying to insinuate that rape was somehow preferable to violence

 

[GeoRox89]

I get what you are saying but I think that is parsing the issue too much for me.

If someone is effectively forced to have sex -- whether it be through actual physical violence, intimidation, coercion, threats, whatever..... that's "violent" enough for me.

It's a f***ing disgraceful and awful act to "force" someone to have sex -- no matter what lever is used to do the forcing. About as big a personal invasion that anyone can experience.

I think if you gave any woman - or man for that matter - the choice between having their toe smashed with a hammer or being forced to have "non violent" unwanted penetrative sex the numbers would be heavily skewed towards walking with a limp for a long while.

Let alone being slapped, ejaculated on, sworn at, spit one and God knows what else has been alleged.

This whole debate has become quite strange but 100% to the bolded. It’s really not a contest. The rates of PTSD, other mental health problems and relationship/trust difficulties after rape are depressing. Lots of people are never the same again and have life long impacts

 

[Edgelord]

You may not like this but, and I havent read your response so see if the hat fits, but it is highly likely that even if you come from a very good place in your heart, you see women/females as inferior and need to protect them, here by spreading your own knowledge and warning to them and also by acknowledging they are in danger with the opposite sex/gender.

Introspection is very powerful. Take this as you will, Im not accusing anyone but I know theres people in this thread doing this. The person you quoted just did. Again, it is not inherently bad and I am not here to tell anyone they are a bad person.

you lost me,
women are physically weaker, so it seems to me to be a disservice not to teach them to avoid certain situations. Now thats not in any way saying young men are not responsible either.