Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Danarqhy]

Yup, agree with your assessments.

With the hockey culture comments - I'm Not sure I agree. I happen to think that the hockey players are generally more respectfull of laws, and people, then most kids.

What we have is a very bad situation, that happens frequently in mainstream lives. And it is terrible....

If there is no problem with Hockey culture explain why Hockey Canada has created a hush fund to specifically make sexual assault cases go away quietly?

 

[oilexport]

If there is no problem with Hockey culture explain why Hockey Canada has created a hush fund to specifically make sexual assault cases go away quietly?

Not sure yet on this point. I could be wrong, but lots of companies fire employees and have payouts that are confidential. We never find out details of lots of terminations with companies.

I think the problem blows up when it's public money that is used to payoff these things. Private companies are not obligated to share as much.

I'm Not prepared to defend hockey canada quite yet on this one thou ! Too much to learn yet, on these complaints.

 

[oilexport]

I just feel we paint all the hockey players with a bad brush, when an incident like this is covered up.

A lot of good people teach a lot of good kids in Hockey Canada ! Let's not forget the endless volunteer work and good things that the organization provides.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Anyone forming a firm opinion of what happened in that room without hearing all of the facts is a fool. We don't know if the women consented or not and/or if the players had a justifiable reason to think she did. She's now saying she did not consent. The players assert otherwise.

The newspaper reports are based on ALLEGATIONS and/or information from "sources". Not a real evaluation of ALL of the actual evidence. The articles are largely propaganda - reporters and news outlets show much of the same confirmation bias we've seen in this thread.

So many people in this thread want to virtue signal by taking one side or the other. Just stop. You (and I) don't know what happened and don't have any real basis at this point to have an informed opinion.

All we can say with reasonable clarity is: (i) if the players engaged in the ALLEGED conduct, then they should go to jail; (ii) the players and alleged victim deserve to have a trial where all of the relevant evidence is introduced; and (iii) the information in the newspapers is far from reliable.

You wrote a hell of a lot of boilerplate "let's not rush to judgement!" pablum just to try to slide your real grievance in there. And it's a dumb one.

It's dumb in light of the very reason that mods here are skittish about us using names (because we're children and can't be trusted to accurately portray information without them maybe getting sued). Print journalism is held to a high standard, and you will get precisely-contextualized and legally accurate information more often in a newspaper than you will get on a cable broadcast or a social feed. In an era of unreliable sources, it's probably the most reliable.

It's especially funny in this case, because the Globe and Mail article being discussed is based on a court filing. So it's not as if there's some "sources say!" business where you can just all-knowingly cast aside the veracity of "sources." They're just writing about a piece of paper, that verifiably exists and verifiably says those things, and doing it for the general public because our lazy asses aren't going to wander down to that courthouse and request to see it ourselves.

Let's say you f***ed up your pipes or toilet or some shit doing whatever. You call up a plumber. He gives you an estimate and the price is high, and he tells you that you shouldn't be doing whatever you did that blew up your toilet. When you ask an expert, sometimes you're not gonna like what you hear. But your response should not be: "f*** all plumbers you can't trust plumbers plumbing is a lie!"

 

[oilexport]

Here is another plausible, hypothetical scenario.

Hockey Canada reports the incident to the cops when they find out about it, cops investigate and close the file. The players threaten to sue Hockey Canada for lost wages, if they release a report on their personal sexual desires, all of which are legal (at that point anyhow). Now, case is reopened, and charges are filed.

 

[Edgelord]

You wrote a hell of a lot of boilerplate "let's not rush to judgement!" pablum just to try to slide your real grievance in there. And it's a dumb one.

For the very reasons the mods are skittish about us using names (because we're children and can't be trusted to accurately portray information without them maybe getting sued). Print journalism is held to a high standard, and you will get precisely-contextualized and legally accurate information more often in a newspaper than you will get on a cable broadcast or a social feed.

It's especially funny in this case, because the Globe and Mail article being discussed is based on a f***ing court filing. So it's not as if there's some "sources say!" business where you can just all-knowingly cast aside the veracity of "sources." They're just writing about a piece of paper, that verifiably exists and verifiably says those things, and doing it for you because your lazy ass isn't going to wander down to that courthouse and request it.

It's like you f***ed up your pipes or toilet or some shit doing whatever. You call up a plumber. He gives you an estimate and the price is high, and he tells you you shouldn't be doing whatever the f*** you did that blew up your toilet. When you ask an expert sometimes you're not gonna like what you hear, but your response should not be: "f*** all plumbers you can't trust plumbers plumbing is a lie!"

To be fair, its about the differences between the CBC and the globe article.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

We always talk about women needing to be aware and not put themselves in a bad situation but the reverse is true for men as well. Don’t put yourself in a bad situation where you can get in trouble even if you think it’s consensual

I don't think the onus is on women to be aware of bad situations. They're allowed to get drunk and should be able to do that without worrying that like half a dozen random guys show up doing whatever they want to them. Is that something guys have to worry about? If she left a bar inebriated with one person and sobered up to way more than she bargained for, the bad situation she found herself in was hanging around hockey players.

While no organization can realistically be expected to be a parent for these guys, I think it's important to remind them that hockey is a fringe sport. No one outside their bubble gives a f*ck about them and no one is coming to save them. Screwing up when you're a nobody doesn't even give the court of public opinion. It just makes women want to cover their drinks when hockey players are around.

 

[KnightofBoston]

To play devil’s advocate, what prevents somebody (of any gender) to lie about consent in order to get a settlement payout from a professional athlete?

Pardon my ignorance if there’s a logical answer to that question.

My concern is, if these kids are found innocent, their reputation is still tarnished forever and career might be over regardless.

But that’s really up to the general public and their critical thinking skills.

People can choose to ignore facts or they can choose to understand them. We can get into why and how they may or may not have these critical thinking skills, but ultimately this is the issue with most complex or charged issues in that people run with wild stuff based on confirmation bias

To answer your original question, women don’t want to go through what she’s about to go through for money, you don’t throw this out there 5-6 years later if you aren’t doing it for a just reason. She’s going to have her life turned upside down.

Many people don’t make wise choices when they’re young. She didn’t make a wise choice and neither did these hockey players, just unfortunately for them, they’re alleged choices happened to be criminal and they’re now going to have to pay the price for it.

 

[D Wakaluk]

I just don't understand any of this.

Don Cherry used to always say that Canadian kids were the best kids on Earth.

He ain't wrong though. Soft euro kids never could have pulled this through.

This is the pinnacle of hockey cultures evolution in Canada. It needed to come crashing down. There's still a lot of people who refuse to see the rot.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

It's borderline insane how important the romanticized view of the "Canadian hockey boy" is to some people and their world view here. Kinda nasty.

 

[HBK27]

If women were to not put themselves in positions to be subjected to anything from sexual harassment to sexual assault, they wouldn't leave the house. And even then it's a crapshoot.

The only people culpable are the assailants. Full stop. Your mom gave your sister good advice, but that doesn't mean that a woman is at fault for men being unable to control themselves.

C'mon now...there's a big difference between "leaving the house" and getting shit faced and going up to the hotel room of some random guy you just met.

Obviously, if these allegations are true the players themselves are 100% at fault, but you can at least acknowledge that there are ways to reduce risk.

Same goes for the players, as noted very well below.

All I know is I hope young hockey players are watching this and taking notes. No more “team bonding activities”, especially with alcohol involved. We always talk about women needing to be aware and not put themselves in a bad situation but the reverse is true for men as well. Don’t put yourself in a bad situation where you can get in trouble even if you think it’s consensual

There is the court of law and the court of public opinion. The NHL and its teams are a business and the players are the most visible spokespeople or commodities. Even if the players are found not guilty, there is a big chance the court of public opinion will not find their actions acceptable depending on evidence. Teams may very well decide that these players have tarnished their reputation beyond repair and it’s not worth it to have them in a visible spot in their organization and sullying their own name.

Players need to take heed, outside of the obvious “do not rape” as it can affect their careers. Hopefully hockey youth culture starts to change. It’s been degenerate, deviant and problematic (I usually hate this word) for a while

 

[Number8]

So if Formenton gets cleared... does he get another NHL crack?

I would think the chances of that are zero. Regardless of what he may or may not be guilty of in terms of the law, he's not a good enough player for any team to lose large chunks of their fanbase over.

Reading the Athletic and Globe and Mail story it appears that "Player 1" was in that bar and tried to get another young lady to come home to "our room". She reports that she got weird vibes about the "our room" part and ditched him. Then he found another one, brought her back to hotel, then texted players to join in on a gang interaction. None of that is disputed it appears.

Seems like he had a plan in mind from the get go.

If so, as the father of a daughter and husband to a wife, if the Bruins were to sign a player like that they could kiss goodbye to a multi decade fan and game attender.

Wasn't happy about the Mitch Miller screwup - but I do believe that was more about sloppiness than not giving a shit about what he'd done. This guy -- if he indeed was the leader or one involved???? Simply no chance I would tolerate it as a fan and that's my prerogative.

 

[Mrb1p]

C'mon now...there's a big difference between "leaving the house" and getting shit faced and going up to the hotel room of some random guy you just met.

Obviously, if these allegations are true the players themselves are 100% at fault, but you can at least acknowledge that there are ways to reduce risk.

Same goes for the players, as noted very well below.

So women cant drink alcohol and shouldnt have sexual intercourse... right.

Do you live in 1150?

 

[Number8]

I guess it depends on the circumstances but the “take good care of him” phrase I interpreted as camaraderie between an older man and a young couple seemingly about to hook up. If he knew the player’s intentions of inviting others that’s a different story but I don’t think this is a conspiracy about reps providing girls or anything. Who knows though?

I agree. I think it's a leap to assume "take good care of him" implied anything like a gang assault.

Still, it's up there in terms of sleaziness and creepiness. What a loser "M.M." is. I hope Nike has shit canned his ass. If that guy is representative of the mindset of Nike marketing leadership well their marketing team is shit.

What a loser. What did he do, go home and jerk off thinking about how he served as an "adult" wingman for a bunch of teenager/20 year olds?????

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Police generally don’t have enough evidence to charge innocent people. In fact, they usually don’t have enough evidence to charge guilty people as well.

I’m sure the lawyers and players will throw money at her and offer her a bunch of money to drop the charges because their lawyers will tell her it’s in her best interest to keep herself anonymous and have it go away as fast as possible.

She already got money from Hockey Canada earlier I believe. And at this point it's not up to her if there are charges or not. Now she could presumably not cooperate as a witness which could tank things. But if there were 8 guys allegedly in the room and only 5 are being charged, I'm not sure how much they'd need her actual testimony at this point.

 

[HBK27]

So women cant drink alcohol and shouldnt have sexual intercourse... right.

Do you live in 1150?

That is not remotely close to what I said...try again.

 

[Three On Zero]

I would think the chances of that are zero. Regardless of what he may or may not be guilty of in terms of the law, he's not a good enough player for any team to lose large chunks of their fanbase over.

Reading the Athletic and Globe and Mail story it appears that "Player 1" was in that bar and tried to get another young lady to come home to "our room". She reports that she got weird vibes about the "our room" part and ditched him. Then he found another one, brought her back to hotel, then texted players to join in on a gang interaction. None of that is disputed it appears.

Seems like he had a plan in mind from the get go.

If so, as the father of a daughter and husband to a wife, if the Bruins were to sign a player like that they could kiss goodbye to a multi decade fan and game attender.

Wasn't happy about the Mitch Miller screwup - but I do believe that was more about sloppiness than not giving a shit about what he'd done. This guy -- if he indeed was the leader or one involved???? Simply no chance I would tolerate it as a fan and that's my prerogative.

If Formenton is cleared, he will more than likely get another crack at the NHL. It’s no different than Virtanen

 

[Statto]

And now the floodgates open. I really hope this wraps up sooner than later. It's not a good situation for anyone. Strange that Formenton was the first to arrive. It's no surprise he was involved, given all the smoke.

Perhaps it’s designed so that he gets in first to get a lighter sentence if he provides evidence or maybe it’s simply a case of ‘someone had to be first’. He’s probably the first to know how much trouble they are really in with regards to how much evidence has been obtained (although I get I don’t know for sure if that’d be presented at this stage in Canada). So maybe one of the guys that allegedly left the room may have come forward, as an example of something we would not know, or maybe the case is legally very thin. There’s so many variables here that we don’t have visibility of.

Given Formenton has been charged (per TSN) and the microscope that is on this case, up to and including the government, I find it unlikely (unless they are stupid) that they don’t think they have a strong case. Pure conjecture on my part though.

 

[Mrb1p]

That is not remotely close to what I said...try again.

Reality is that women can get inebriated in a bar as much as men and should not fear for their security. It is exactly what you said.

Yes theres gonna be bad people forever, however these guys arent bad people, they just have f***ed up morals from decades of society accepting things they shouldnt accept.

You are doing the exact same thing by placing blame on the women. No it wasnt wrong place wrong time, it was a terrible act commited by persons with f***ed up morals.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Wasn't this investigation supposed to be done in the summer?

 

[HBK27]

If Formenton is cleared, he will more than likely get another crack at the NHL. It’s no different than Virtanen

Very hard to say at this point - I think a lot of it depends on what additional details emerge from this case and how that plays out in the public...though that again all hinges on them not being found guilty in the first place, which is a major hurdle to start with.

 

[Three On Zero]

Very hard to say at this point - I think a lot of it depends on what additional details emerge from this case and how that plays out in the public...though that again all hinges on them not being found guilty in the first place, which is a major hurdle to start with.

It’s highly unlikely that he comes out of this unscathed

 

[Number8]

If Formenton is cleared, he will more than likely get another crack at the NHL. It’s no different than Virtanen

Maybe so. My personal view is that he is toast and won't get a shot. Be interesting to see. If he's player 1-5, not gonna lie.... I'm rooting for him to be scapegoated at best.

Right now he's a posterboy for younger players showing them that acting like entitled frat boys can bite you in the ass, hard. If Formenton is indeed player 1-5 and ends up being blackballed, not gonna lose any sleep over it. People all over the world get far worse deals in life through absolutely no fault of their own every single day.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I'm this close to being in favour of ending junior hockey period.

I'm sick to my stomach reading.

I just feel we paint all the hockey players with a bad brush, when an incident like this is covered up.

A lot of good people teach a lot of good kids in Hockey Canada ! Let's not forget the endless volunteer work and good things that the organization provides.

People painted NBA and NFL players as all bad for years. With the NFL it was warranted, NBA players not so much. Hockey fans did it a lot. Not the shoe is on the other foot. Maybe stereotypes aren't great, but people should have learned that before this scandal happened.

 

[HBK27]

Reality is that women can get inebriated in a bar as much as men and should not fear for their security. It is exactly what you said.

Yes theres gonna be bad people forever, however these guys arent bad people, they just have f***ed up morals from decades of society accepting things they shouldnt accept.

You are doing the exact same thing by placing blame on the women. No it wasnt wrong place wrong time, it was a terrible act commited by persons with f***ed up morals.

If you're going to say that something is "exactly what you said", how about you quote exactly what I said.

For example, you are claiming that I am "placing blame on the women", when I specifically wrote "if these allegations are true the players themselves are 100% at fault".

Again, you are so far away from actually grasping what I wrote...which really isn't all that complicated.