Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Edgelord]

I guess it depends on the circumstances but the “take good care of him” phrase I interpreted as camaraderie between an older man and a young couple seemingly about to hook up. If he knew the player’s intentions of inviting others that’s a different story but I don’t think this is a conspiracy about reps providing girls or anything. Who knows though?

could you imagine the ripple effect if this was an instance of an organization (not hockey canada) supplying "services" to teens.

 

[duckpuck]

Honestly, I never followed the Polanski case enough to comment intelligently on it.

Polanski had been arraigned and was set for trial. He skipped bail . . . which meant that the trial could proceed.

In the US, you have arraign the defendant (i.e., give him/her an opportunity for a defense) before there's any type of trial. I have no idea what the law is in candada.

 

[Edgelord]

Anyone forming a firm opinion of what happened in that room without hearing all of the facts is a fool. We don't know if the women consented or not and/or if the players had a justifiable reason to think she did. She's now saying she did not consent. The players assert otherwise.

The newspaper reports are based on ALLEGATIONS and/or information from "sources". Not a real evaluation of ALL of the actual evidence. The articles are largely propaganda - reporters and news outlets show much of the same confirmation bias we've seen in this thread.

So many people in this thread want to virtue signal by taking one side or the other. Just stop. You (and I) don't know what happened and don't have any real basis at this point to have an informed option.

All we can say with reasonable clarity is: (i) if the players engaged in the ALLEGED conduct, then they should go to jail; (ii) the players and alleged victim deserve to have a trial where all of the relevant evidence is introduced; and (iii) the information in the newspapers is far from reliable.

thats why I'm in the position that its going to be a tough case either way

 

[duckpuck]

thats why I'm in the position that its going to be a tough case either way

Every he said/she said case is tough. It is likely at least part of the reason why the local police did not prosecute the first time around.

If there's a trial, then at least the public can evaluate the evidence/testimony and form a reasonable opinion as to what happened (or at least discuss that on an informed basis). Right now, we know nothing.

And in that regard, even if the players are found not guilty, it doesn't mean they'll be exonerated. OJ Simpson is an example of someone who was found not guilty and was nonetheless reviled and shunned. That could be what happens here.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

could you imagine the ripple effect if this was an instance of an organization (not hockey canada) supplying "services" to teens.

I’m sure it’s happened and does happen, as with all services or goods that are part of the underworld. I think it was Miami Hurricanes who had boosters paying for escorts and abortions for players and recruits a few decades ago. There will always be shady in between type guys in the entertainment industry and adjacent areas. I just think that there is a good chance he was at the wrong place and the wrong time and comes off as sleazy. If this story doesn’t happen he was just a guy who bought a round of drinks and made a joke with a couple who seemed like they were going to hook up. Now if he knew the player’s intention of inviting others, or was plying her with drinks, or procured her, then we have some bigger issues

 

[Edgelord]

Every he said/she said case is tough. It is likely at least part of the reason why the local police did not prosecute the first time around.

If there's a trial, then at least the public can evaluate the evidence/testimony and form a reasonable opinion as to what happened (or at least discuss that on an informed basis). Right now, we know nothing.

And in that regard, even if the players are found not guilty, it doesn't mean they'll be exonerated. OJ Simpson is an example of someone who was found not guilty and was nonetheless reviled and shunned. That could be what happens here.

my gut feeling is the crown doesn't want this to go to trial. They seem to be following that script.
-start with main charges
-offer plea on slightly less severe charges, if turned down move on to next step
-begin to list a whole slew of additional charges and re offer plea deal, if turned down
-offer a sweetheart plea deal to avoid trial, usually saying it would be too traumatic for the victim

its kind of the standard MO when the crown may not have an iron clad case

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Whats your sense on the strength of the case?
with the video's this seems like a tough case to prosecute.

I really don't have a sense of the strength of the case because I don't know the evidence (and media reports of legal matters seem to me to be more often wrong or at least misleading as they are correct), but note that prosecutors typically don't bring a case they know is weak because of their own concerns about being potentially embarrassed. It is probably a safe presumption that in the minds of the prosecutors they have decided they have a better than 50% chance of winning if there is not a plea bargain and the matter goes to trial, and thus an equally safe presumption that prosecutors have evidence not yet made public that they believe supports a conviction (and also, by implication, overcoming a consent defense).

FWIW, unless it is a case that I am involved in where I am required to use my professional judgment to assess odds and probabilities of success or failure, with somebody else's cases I have found it best to just grab the beer and popcorn and not even attempt to draw any conclusions but to simply observe it and watch how it all plays out. We can't do anything about it anyway so why go through the angst of speculating?

 

[duckpuck]

my gut feeling is the crown doesn't want this to go to trial. They seem to be following that script.
-start with main charges
-offer plea on slightly less severe charges, if turned down move on to next step
-begin to list a whole slew of additional charges and re offer plea deal, if turned down
-offer a sweetheart plea deal to avoid trial, usually saying it would be too traumatic for the victim

its kind of the standard MO when the crown may not have an iron clad case

Can the players accept a plea deal? It means the end of the hockey careers. Seems to me they have little incentive to plea unless there is very strong evidence supporting a conviction.

 

[oilexport]

Anyone forming a firm opinion of what happened in that room without hearing all of the facts is a fool. We don't know if the women consented or not and/or if the players had a justifiable reason to think she did. She's now saying she did not consent. The players assert otherwise.

The newspaper reports are based on ALLEGATIONS and/or information from "sources". Not a real evaluation of ALL of the actual evidence. The articles are largely propaganda - reporters and news outlets show much of the same confirmation bias we've seen in this thread.

So many people in this thread want to virtue signal by taking one side or the other. Just stop. You (and I) don't know what happened and don't have any real basis at this point to have an informed opinion.

All we can say with reasonable clarity is: (i) if the players engaged in the ALLEGED conduct, then they should go to jail; (ii) the players and alleged victim deserve to have a trial where all of the relevant evidence is introduced; and (iii) the information in the newspapers is far from reliable.

Some good articles that are based on court materials is painting a picture of what generally happened that night. Looks like a lot of litigation and details of events to come, before accurately forming a complete opinion.

Every he said/she said case is tough. It is likely at least part of the reason why the local police did not prosecute the first time around.

If there's a trial, then at least the public can evaluate the evidence/testimony and form a reasonable opinion as to what happened (or at least discuss that on an informed basis). Right now, we know nothing.

And in that regard, even if the players are found not guilty, it doesn't mean they'll be exonerated. OJ Simpson is an example of someone who was found not guilty and was nonetheless reviled and shunned. That could be what happens here.

I can't see the players surviving this. At best, it was extremely inappropriate. Nobody will offer them a contract. It's too ugly too touch.

Of course, at worst, they all get locked up with no pizza and girls.

 

[Edgelord]

I really don't have a sense of the strength of the case because I don't know the evidence (and media reports of legal matters seem to me to be more often wrong or at least misleading as they are correct), but note that prosecutors typically don't bring a case they know is weak because of their own concerns about being potentially embarrassed. It is probably a safe presumption that in the minds of the prosecutors they have decided they have a better than 50% chance of winning if there is not a plea bargain and the matter goes to trial, and thus an equally safe presumption that prosecutors have evidence not yet made public that they believe supports a conviction (and also, by implication, overcoming a consent defense).

FWIW, unless it is a case that I am involved in where I am required to use my professional judgment to assess odds and probabilities of success or failure, with somebody else's cases I have found it best to just grab the beer and popcorn and not even attempt to draw any conclusions but to simply observe it and watch how it all plays out. We can't do anything about it anyway so why go through the angst of speculating?

the fact they either have or plan to add all those additional charges IMO seems to fit the weak case pattern of using fear to get a plea deal

 

[FDBluth]

I’m sure it’s happened and does happen, as with all services or goods that are part of the underworld. I think it was Miami Hurricanes who had boosters paying for escorts and abortions for players and recruits a few decades ago. There will always be shady in between type guys in the entertainment industry and adjacent areas. I just think that there is a good chance he was at the wrong place and the wrong time and comes off as sleazy. If this story doesn’t happen he was just a guy who bought a round of drinks and made a joke with a couple who seemed like they were going to hook up. Now if he knew the player’s intention of inviting others, or was plying her with drinks, or procured her, then we have some bigger issues

I mean I agree in general but pouring Jagermeister into her mouth is a bit full on.

 

[duckpuck]

I really don't have a sense of the strength of the case because I don't know the evidence (and media reports of legal matters seem to me to be more often wrong or at least misleading as they are correct), but note that prosecutors typically don't bring a case they know is weak because of their own concerns about being potentially embarrassed. It is probably a safe presumption that in the minds of the prosecutors they have decided they have a better than 50% chance of winning if there is not a plea bargain and the matter goes to trial, and thus an equally safe presumption that prosecutors have evidence not yet made public that they believe supports a conviction (and also, by implication, overcoming a consent defense).

FWIW, unless it is a case that I am involved in where I am required to use my professional judgment to assess odds and probabilities of success or failure, with somebody else's cases I have found it best to just grab the beer and popcorn and not even attempt to draw any conclusions but to simply observe it and watch how it all plays out. We can't do anything about it anyway so why go through the angst of speculating?

I think the bolded is a highly questionable assumption/assessment in a high profile case where people are clamoring for a conviction. In that scenario, the prosecutor is "embarrassed" (or more accurately, "subject to criticism") for not proceeding.

 

[TopC0rner]

Can the players accept a plea deal? It means the end of the hockey careers. Seems to me they have little incentive to plea unless there is very strong evidence supporting a conviction.

Imo, their hockey careers are done either way, at least in any major NA league. Even if they're not convicted, the fact that Hockey Canada's conclusion was that they "likely" sexually assaulted the girl will not play to fans and will be a constant distraction.

 

[duckpuck]

Some good articles that are based on court materials is painting a picture of what generally happened that night. Looks like a lot of litigation and details of events to come, before accurately forming a complete opinion.

I can't see the players surviving this. At best, it was extremely inappropriate. Nobody will offer them a contract. It's too ugly too touch.

Of course, at worst, they all get locked up with no pizza and girls.

At this point, the court materials are ALLEGATIONS, the most significant of which are disputed. That is not evidence.

I agree that the players may be done. Jake Virtanen is a good example of what is likely to happen if they are acquiteed.

 

[Danarqhy]

Whoever is Player 2 in that Globe & Mail article admitted that he engaged in sexual acts "without even talking" to E.M. That seems problematic to me, because how can you possibly get consent from someone you didn't even talk to? And on top of that for a gang bang? And to spit at her and degrade her? Some real degenerate shit. And, the group text messages that are not being released might be more damning and showcase just how problematic "hockey culture" really is and that includes the older gentleman that indirectly had a small part to play in facilitating this.

It's gonna be a tricky case one way or another but it's pretty clear the 5 accused are POS that were looking to take advantage of this girl.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I mean I agree in general but pouring Jagermeister into her mouth is a bit full on.

Yeah it’s definitely not a good look. It’s a pretty common sight to see middle aged men hitting on girls half their age at bars and such though, but most of the time it’s more or less harmless and just gets an eye roll from spectators. If this isn’t something bigger, this guy has to be kicking himself; talking to himself like “M, all you had to do was buy her the drink but you had to go and be a big shot and pour it down her throat..”

 

[oilexport]

At this point, the court materials are ALLEGATIONS, the most significant of which are disputed. That is not evidence.

I agree that the players may be done. Jake Virtanen is a good example of what is likely to happen if they are acquiteed.

Of course, I'm keeping an open mind at this point. Having said that, the news articles are based on court filings. We get good info from the globe and mail, they can't make up chit.

The globe said that the actual court materials, text messages, and videos were shared to them.

 

[TopC0rner]

Something that seems misunderstood in this thread is that in Canada, "credible victim testimony identifying the assailant is considered sufficient", even if the assailant claims otherwise.

So, if the prosecution believes the victim's testimony to be credible, that in itself would be the proof required for the case to go to trial.

That being said, in general, wealthy people that go for a jury decision tend to do well in getting "not guilty" verdicts compared to normal people, so I wouldn't hold my breath that there will be a conviction in the end.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Can the players accept a plea deal? It means the end of the hockey careers. Seems to me they have little incentive to plea unless there is very strong evidence supporting a conviction.

Knowing utterly nothing about Canadian criminal procedure, in the U.S. at least it is very common for criminal defendants to plea out to lesser charges if prosecutors agree, e.g., agreeing to plea to filing false tax returns which carries a much smaller penalty than money laundering. So, hypothetically, the players could plead out to tampering with evidence or giving false testimony or something that might not be so onerous that the plea would end their careers like a sexual-related conviction would very likely do.

But emphasizing that "if prosecutors agree" part.

 

[oilexport]

Whoever is Player 2 in that Globe & Mail article admitted that he engaged in sexual acts "without even talking" to E.M. That seems problematic to me, because how can you possibly get consent from someone you didn't even talk to? And on top of that for a gang bang? And to spit at her and degrade her? Some real degenerate shit. And, the group text messages that are not being released might be more damning and showcase just how problematic "hockey culture" really is and that includes the older gentleman that indirectly had a small part to play in facilitating this.

It's gonna be a tricky case one way or another but it's pretty clear the 5 accused are POS that were looking to take advantage of this girl.

The one article I read said player 1, texted player 2, saying that a girl was performing sex acts, if he wanted anything. Player 2 left another bar with his 2 buddies, and went to player 1 room.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

All I know is I hope young hockey players are watching this and taking notes. No more “team bonding activities”, especially with alcohol involved. We always talk about women needing to be aware and not put themselves in a bad situation but the reverse is true for men as well. Don’t put yourself in a bad situation where you can get in trouble even if you think it’s consensual

There is the court of law and the court of public opinion. The NHL and its teams are a business and the players are the most visible spokespeople or commodities. Even if the players are found not guilty, there is a big chance the court of public opinion will not find their actions acceptable depending on evidence. Teams may very well decide that these players have tarnished their reputation beyond repair and it’s not worth it to have them in a visible spot in their organization and sullying their own name.

Players need to take heed, outside of the obvious “do not rape” as it can affect their careers. Hopefully hockey youth culture starts to change. It’s been degenerate, deviant and problematic (I usually hate this word) for a while

 

[Danarqhy]

The one article I read said player 1, texted player 2, saying that a girl was performing sex acts, if he wanted anything. Player 2 left another bar with his 2 buddies, and went to player 1 room.

From the G&M article: "According to the application, Player 2 engaged in sex acts with E.M. “without speaking with her.”

Player 2 might of been under the illusion that E.M. agreed to it because of how Player 1 framed it to him. But E.M. has said that she wasn't aware nor did she authorize the other 7 people in, and this doesn't appear to be disputed at least not according to the info we have available right now.

 

[oilexport]

All I know is I hope young hockey players are watching this and taking notes. No more “team bonding activities”, especially with alcohol involved. We always talk about women needing to be aware and not put themselves in a bad situation but the reverse is true for men as well. Don’t put yourself in a bad situation where you can get in trouble even if you think it’s consensual

There is the court of law and the court of public opinion. The NHL and its teams are a business and the players are the most visible spokespeople or commodities. Even if the players are found not guilty, there is a big chance the court of public opinion will not find their actions acceptable depending on evidence. Teams may very well decide that these players have tarnished their reputation beyond repair and it’s not worth it to have them in a visible spot in their organization and sullying their own name.

Players need to take heed, outside of the obvious “do not rape” as it can affect their careers. Hopefully hockey youth culture starts to change. It’s been degenerate, deviant and problematic (I usually hate this word) for a while

From the G&M article: "According to the application, Player 2 engaged in sex acts with E.M. “without speaking with her.”

Player 2 might of been under the illusion that E.M. agreed to it because of how Player 1 framed it to him. But E.M. has said that she wasn't aware nor did she authorize the other 7 people in, and this doesn't appear to be disputed at least not according to the info we have available right now.

Yup, agree with your assessments.

With the hockey culture comments - I'm Not sure I agree. I happen to think that the hockey players are generally more respectfull of laws, and people, then most kids.

What we have is a very bad situation, that happens frequently in mainstream lives. And it is terrible....

 

[FDBluth]

Yeah it’s definitely not a good look. It’s a pretty common sight to see middle aged men hitting on girls half their age at bars and such though, but most of the time it’s more or less harmless and just gets an eye roll from spectators. If this isn’t something bigger, this guy has to be kicking himself; talking to himself like “M, all you had to do was buy her the drink but you had to go and be a big shot and pour it down her throat..”

yeah, pouring jagermeister down her throat, asking the her to take care of the guy...that's a definitely a couple bad looks alright.

 

[oilexport]

yeah, pouring jagermeister down here throat, asking the her to take care of the guy...that's a definitely a couple bad looks alright.

In retrospect, the older sponcer/rep providing drinks looks bad because of what ensued, but providing a shooter to a female happens several times in any bar ya walk into. I would leave that guy out of this mess. Aside from a material witness, as to her intoxication.