Fire Tocchet

[rt]

Coaching changes are almost like trades now. Vegas felt DeBoer was an upgrade on Gallant, so they pulled the trigger on the trade. The idea of always evaluating and exploring ways to make the team better, seems to be extending beyond players, and is starting to include coaches.

Hell, we already did this with the Allen/Housley situation. Allen didn’t do anything wrong. They liked him. They thought a better option became available, so they jumped on it.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Bringing back Rantaa for 1 game before a week break after injury had me scratching my head. Hill hasn't been bad. This team is built for the playoffs. If we don't make it, bye bye.

 

[XX]

Gallant was pushed out in part to not being receptive to analytics from Vegas management. He's probably not a fit here unless he changes his tune.

Laviolette is just a retread. I suppose he'd be okay to ride out this rebuild and see if it can make it over the hill and into the playoffs, but he's a short term coach.

I want someone that can adapt mid game and between games. That means a top tier coach. When the Coyotes played Trotz' Islanders, he had a specific gameplan that they executed beautifully and just thumped the Coyotes. Tampa was the same way.

Unless you can get a top 5 coach or think you've got a great read on an up-and-comer, you stick with Tocchet another year if he makes the playoffs. Flush some turds out of the locker room and hope the problem fixes itself.

Bringing back Rantaa for 1 game before a week break after injury had me scratching my head. Hill hasn't been bad. This team is built for the playoffs. If we don't make it, bye bye.

He also left Kuemper in a bad game which lead to his injury. His decision making is extremely suspect when it comes to game management.

 

[rt]

^ he seems to love those turds. Like a lot. Is that a problem?

 

[_Del_]

Yes.

 

[XX]

^ he seems to love those turds. Like a lot. Is that a problem?

He's loyal to his guys because he sees the best in them. It took him a long time to move Kessel down. It had to sting.

A new coach wouldn't necessarily have these attachments, especially if you flush the room in the summer. The tape is there for any candidate to see. It's not like they're going to walk into this roster without a plan for getting more performance out of it.

A coach's third year with increased expectations is basically the witching hour. Tocchet makes it or he's done at this point. If he makes it, that's probably the more interesting conversation. If he gets thoroughly out coached and the team blown out, he's probably done. If they fight, he probably stays and Chayka wrenches the roster with what he has learned so far this year.

Tocchet hasn't really learned much on the job and has actually made some pretty questionable decisions (Allen). He's definitely on the hotseat.

 

[CoyoteDave]

I realize this is a "fire Tocchet" conversation and the points (weak on the fly game management, loyalty to underperforming players, good old boy assistant coaches) have been well discussed. Players not stepping up is definitely an issue. And while I don't know any of the players personally and am not in the locker room, it seems to me from watching 95% of the games that there are only a few players that even show any emotion when faced with adversity. OEL, Garland, Crouse, Kuemper, Chychrun, Hall and maybe Lyubushkin. You need to keep your emotions in check and not go Ape Sh.. but it might help if the blood boils a little sometimes. I just don't think that is the personality on this team. If I am the other team, who would I be worried about if I ran OEL or Hall? I can't think of anybody that I would keep my head on a swivel for.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

This group is tired...you can just tell..

Yes, we are collectively very cranky. Oh, you meant the team...1000 pardons. Either way, I'm sure we'll be fine in 10 days....(hahaha who am I kidding?)

 

[cobra427]

Muerelo isn't firing Tocc period, he is all in on Chayka/Tocc. If we miss this the playoffs this year and next, then he gets canned and maybe Chayka too.

The team is facing adversity now, its not the end of the world, these are the pretty normal ebbs and flows of a season. If you take a step back and realize Kuemper has been out and if you also realize our talent level which is average, we are right where we should be, in the hunt for a playoff spot. I never expected us to have a spot locked in with 5-10 games left anyway.

 

[AJ171181]

You dont trade for a 31 year old Kessel and a Hall (where the contract is running out) to play some Hockey until march.
Chayka (and maybe Meruelo) is all in for a playoff run.
If we miss the playoffs by a lot of points, it can not going on without any consequences.
Lets hope we are not, but the last ~20 games our point average was not playoff like and the most contending teams are on fire right now.
Maybe the All star break comes right, we get Kuemper back, Raanta can get to 100%.

but you still need 18-20 wins (maybe less with some OT looser points) out of 31 games... puh. Hope RT can handle this, there is not much reason to believe in.

 

[Fuhrious]

Muerelo isn't firing Tocc period, he is all in on Chayka/Tocc. If we miss this the playoffs this year and next, then he gets canned and maybe Chayka too.

The team is facing adversity now, its not the end of the world, these are the pretty normal ebbs and flows of a season. If you take a step back and realize Kuemper has been out and if you also realize our talent level which is average, we are right where we should be, in the hunt for a playoff spot. I never expected us to have a spot locked in with 5-10 games left anyway.

I'm kinda repeating posts between this and the Roster thread, so I apologize for that...but I completely agree with you that "our talent level is average" and "we are right where we should be". As I think I mentioned previously, we're not far from previous seasons in point%, it's just that the rest of the West is mediocre as hell right now so you've got a nice big cluster of teams all within a handful of points of each other for those precious playoff slots.

What's unacceptable to me is the level of preparation and effort the team has demonstrated the past 4-6 weeks, even going back to before Kuemper's injury. A team with an "average talent level" should be working it's collective asses off night-in and night-out, and this team just doesnt (outside of Garland, Hino and perhaps a couple others). The team struggles with basic concepts like cycling and zone clearances, let alone effective puck movement and shot generation on the PP. Those are very clear and distinct coaching deficiencies that should simply not happen at this high a level.

It's also surprising how many folks here in F40 are willing to continue to give RT slack, yet have lingering hard feelings over Domi and more recently Strome and Hayton's lack of/misuse. However much of the blame gets split between RT and GMJC, some of the blame certainly lands on RT as the apparent inability/unwillingness to develop young players is absolutely happening right before our eyes during his watch.

 

[Jakey53]

We literally just extended Chayka. He’s not going anywhere.

You are probably right, I don't think we are paying him much and rich owners get impatient, and all they care about it winning.

 

[hbk]

You are probably right, I don't think we are paying him much and rich owners get impatient, and all they care about it winning.

I think Chayka would be highly sought after if he became available. I suspect we renewed him for 4years (speculation) at easily more than double his previous salary (where he was cheap).

 

[Jakey53]

How about your goalie has been hurt for the last month?

Other teams have injuries so I hate using that as an excuse, but we depend on our goalies so much and when we don't get it we are starting to see the results.

 

[Jakey53]

Got any way to prove that valuation of top 5? Who are the others?

We as fans overvalue our players, and I think we do the same with the GM's. In my view, I have like most of Chayka's moves, but the proof will be in the pudding as they say. In 31 games we will have our answer.

 

[hbk]

Other teams have injuries so I hate using that as an excuse, but we depend on our goalies so much and when we don't get it we are starting to see the results.

Strong correlation between bad goaltending and coaches who get fired. I’d even go so far in this case to say that correlation means causation.

 

[Mosby]

Tocchet is on Year 3 of a four-year deal. I imagine he needs playoffs if he wants to see the fourth year and an extension.

 

[cobra427]

I'm kinda repeating posts between this and the Roster thread, so I apologize for that...but I completely agree with you that "our talent level is average" and "we are right where we should be". As I think I mentioned previously, we're not far from previous seasons in point%, it's just that the rest of the West is mediocre as hell right now so you've got a nice big cluster of teams all within a handful of points of each other for those precious playoff slots.

What's unacceptable to me is the level of preparation and effort the team has demonstrated the past 4-6 weeks, even going back to before Kuemper's injury. A team with an "average talent level" should be working it's collective asses off night-in and night-out, and this team just doesnt (outside of Garland, Hino and perhaps a couple others). The team struggles with basic concepts like cycling and zone clearances, let alone effective puck movement and shot generation on the PP. Those are very clear and distinct coaching deficiencies that should simply not happen at this high a level.

It's also surprising how many folks here in F40 are willing to continue to give RT slack, yet have lingering hard feelings over Domi and more recently Strome and Hayton's lack of/misuse. However much of the blame gets split between RT and GMJC, some of the blame certainly lands on RT as the apparent inability/unwillingness to develop young players is absolutely happening right before our eyes during his watch.

Without looking, I think we are far ahead of last years point total at this time last year. I don't see the lack of effort in the team you are claiming? The line between winning and losing is so close now, puck luck, deflections, being lucky or unlucky. We out played Vancouver and lost, I didn't see the Oiler game. I see a lack of execution but not a lack of hustle.

Earlier in the year the team played great team D and looked well prepared. Now all teams are well prepared and nobody will take us lightly. The D started to fade after hammer was out for a while, and this effected our transition game. Obviously Kuemper being out has hurt as well with Raanta being inconsistent and hurt most of the time. Landing Hall will help the team through the rest of the season, and Tocc uses him on the PK, he is solid in all aspects. But, the team mentality changed a little with Hall, everyone seemed to be score first and not as much detail on D.

Our strength was team D and goal tending, but it looks like a weakness lately. We need to keep our GAA down, its not about scoring goals for us to succeed. As for Tocc, I have been mixed. He did lead an injured team last year to a pretty good record, all things considered. We had a great start this year too. He isn't being fired even this summer unless we wind up with sub 80 points and the rest of the year is a train wreck.

I still think we will be ok with Kuemper back and our team D and attention to detail being the focus the rest of the way. I think that will carry us past other teams, we might win the division it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[rt]

I realize this is a "fire Tocchet" conversation and the points (weak on the fly game management, loyalty to underperforming players, good old boy assistant coaches) have been well discussed. Players not stepping up is definitely an issue. And while I don't know any of the players personally and am not in the locker room, it seems to me from watching 95% of the games that there are only a few players that even show any emotion when faced with adversity. OEL, Garland, Crouse, Kuemper, Chychrun, Hall and maybe Lyubushkin. You need to keep your emotions in check and not go Ape Sh.. but it might help if the blood boils a little sometimes. I just don't think that is the personality on this team. If I am the other team, who would I be worried about if I ran OEL or Hall? I can't think of anybody that I would keep my head on a swivel for.

Good post. You should post more often.

 

[Jakey53]

I think it's mostly our players with no drive, but Tocc isn't a great coach, either. Easier to fire a coach than have a GM churn his roster and admit failure.
Basically anything that lights a fire under someone's ass would be an improvement, imo. I think Tocc is trying to be everyone's bestie and be the "Kessel whisperer" to everyone, and everyone is very comfortable in the room, win or lose. I'd like to see the "Kessel (and Keller, Schmaltz, Stepan, ...) Yeller" because whispering isn't doing anything. Tired of the endless excuses for everyone in every postgame presser. If Kessel and OEL weren't 100% to start the season, we should have had the balls to sit them because they were hurting the team.
I don't think Tocc gets axed midseason unless it comes from ownership.

I think Keumper was hot and everyone started to believe their own press clippings, and went on vacation. We've got several guys who have another gear that shows up every dozen games or so or go on two game "hot-streaks". Have to get consistent effort out of people or find people who show up everyday. I wanted Archibald out badly, but I'd trade Phil for Archibald right now. And Schmaltz and Keller are busy being what they've always been -- which is apparently our GM's ideal player: soft, streaky undersized skill players who can carry the puck -- as long as there isn't any chance of physical contact.

If we're on the bubble at the deadline, I'd fire Tocc. If we're looking in from the outside, we should bite the bullet and trade Hall and start cleaning up the roster early and take advantage of the TDL urgency. But Chayka would never do this, so its moot. I'd be open to moving on from Chayka or giving him a short leash and other voices in the room, but he just got a nice fat extension, so that's probably moot, too.

The good thing is that Barroway -- and now especially el Carnicero-- have raised expectations from "survival" to something more tangible. It'd be nice if that trickled down to the players.

If I told you and the rest of the posters here that we would be in the playoffs at the break we would have been ecstatic. I said from the start of the season that this team has to make the playoffs or it's a failed season, so we will find out in about 30 games or so. We only focus on our team, and we complain about the shortcomings, about their play etc., but other teams with more talent have them also. If I look at the standings, I'm happy where we are at, but at the same time frustrated because of their play. The second season started after the Christmas break, and we are seeing how teams pick up their physical game, and this started our downfall as we had no answer to the physicality, and of course losing Kuemper and Raanta sure as hell didn't help either. I'm excited, but at the same time nervous, for the remainder of season.

 

[Jamieh]

Strong correlation between bad goaltending and coaches who get fired. I’d even go so far in this case to say that correlation means causation.

Wonder what the correlation is between perceived bad goaltending and poor team play in the same situation? Or would it be assumed that you just need the goalie to play better in these situations for the team to be better? In the Coyotes last 8 losses they scored 12 goals, asking a goalie to win those on a regular basis is a tall task.

 

[Jakey53]

Gallant was pushed out in part to not being receptive to analytics from Vegas management. He's probably not a fit here unless he changes his tune.

Laviolette is just a retread. I suppose he'd be okay to ride out this rebuild and see if it can make it over the hill and into the playoffs, but he's a short term coach.

I want someone that can adapt mid game and between games. That means a top tier coach. When the Coyotes played Trotz' Islanders, he had a specific gameplan that they executed beautifully and just thumped the Coyotes. Tampa was the same way.

Unless you can get a top 5 coach or think you've got a great read on an up-and-comer, you stick with Tocchet another year if he makes the playoffs. Flush some turds out of the locker room and hope the problem fixes itself.



He also left Kuemper in a bad game which lead to his injury. His decision making is extremely suspect when it comes to game management.

Trotz has a .507 W%, Laviolette .526. Bot top coaches. It also depends on the circumstances, but both head and shoulders above RT.

 

[Jakey53]

Without looking, I think we are far ahead of last years point total at this time last year. I don't see the lack of effort in the team you are claiming? The line between winning and losing is so close now, puck luck, deflections, being lucky or unlucky. We out played Vancouver and lost, I didn't see the Oiler game. I see a lack of execution but not a lack of hustle.

Earlier in the year the team played great team D and looked well prepared. Now all teams are well prepared and nobody will take us lightly. The D started to fade after hammer was out for a while, and this effected our transition game. Obviously Kuemper being out has hurt as well with Raanta being inconsistent and hurt most of the time. Landing Hall will help the team through the rest of the season, and Tocc uses him on the PK, he is solid in all aspects. But, the team mentality changed a little with Hall, everyone seemed to be score first and not as much detail on D.

Our strength was team D and goal tending, but it looks like a weakness lately. We need to keep our GAA down, its not about scoring goals for us to succeed. As for Tocc, I have been mixed. He did lead an injured team last year to a pretty good record, all things considered. We had a great start this year too. He isn't being fired even this summer unless we wind up with sub 80 points and the rest of the year is a train wreck.

I still think we will be ok with Kuemper back and our team D and attention to detail being the focus the rest of the way. I think that will carry us past other teams, we might win the division it wouldn't surprise me.

We better be ahead of last year point totals because of all the injuries we had. You say there is no lack of effort? I disagree. Have you watched the last 7 or so games? Keller, Schmaltz, Soderberg have been a total no show. Gogo and Demers coughing up the puck consistently. Kessel, one good game, then total no show. We all know the first 40 games is different than the next 40, and so far we have not adjusted, both players and coaches. This might be because of inexperience of coach and players, but the next 30 games will answer many questions about this team and their coach. I don't care how we do it, or who does it, we have to make the playoffs.

 

[hbk]

Wonder what the correlation is between perceived bad goaltending and poor team play in the same situation? Or would it be assumed that you just need the goalie to play better in these situations for the team to be better? In the Coyotes last 8 losses they scored 12 goals, asking a goalie to win those on a regular basis is a tall task.

Oh no question the team needs to find their defensive chops again. I hope Hjarlmarsson and the ability to allow Oesterle a view from the press box will help in that regard. I think eliminating the 1-2 routine stops that Hill and Raanta have been letting in every game will also go a long ways. Keller and Schmaltz need to show up in 2nd half. Taking 6 games off to close out January was frustrating. Team is not without its issues and Tocchet needs to earn his Kessel whisperer money.

here’s my final word on Tocchet. I dislike his inability / unwillingness to adapt his system to the actual players on your roster but if you’ve already turned over 70% of the roster to accommodate the coach you might as well see where it goes. I do think there are some further roster tweaks (physicality) that need to occur and we have some obvious names (Hibostroza, Richardson, etc) who aren’t going to be around next year.

 

[Jakey53]

Oh no question the team needs to find their defensive chops again. I hope Hjarlmarsson and the ability to allow Oesterle a view from the press box will help in that regard. I think eliminating the 1-2 routine stops that Hill and Raanta have been letting in every game will also go a long ways. Keller and Schmaltz need to show up in 2nd half. Taking 6 games off to close out January was frustrating. Team is not without its issues and Tocchet needs to earn his Kessel whisperer money.

here’s my final word on Tocchet. I dislike his inability / unwillingness to adapt his system to the actual players on your roster but if you’ve already turned over 70% of the roster to accommodate the coach you might as well see where it goes. I do think there are some further roster tweaks (physicality) that need to occur and we have some obvious names (Hibostroza, Richardson, etc) who aren’t going to be around next year.

Good post. Our lack of physicality has been a problem for two years.