Finland vs Sweden with all time teams. | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Finland vs Sweden with all time teams.

Thenameless

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Apr 29, 2014
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Can some of you more knowledgeable folk help me to create an all time best line up for both countries? I suspect Sweden will have the greater depth by quite a margin, but Finland might have enough top end talent to make a good game of it.

Kent Nilsson - Gradin - Sandstrom
Naslund - Forsberg - Alfredsson
Sedin - Sedin - Sundin

Salming - Lidstrom
Ohlund - Hedman
Samuelsson - Samuelsson

Lundqvist - Lindbergh

Lehtinen - S Koivu - Selanne
M Koivu - Jokinen - Kurri
Laing - Barkov - Jokinen

Salo - Lumme
Lydman - Numminen
Timonen - Ruotsolainen

Kiprusoff - Rinne


Had trouble making 4th lines, and I know that quite a few are out of position. Finland really heavy on right wingers.
 
Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Backstrom - Mats Sundin
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Anders Hedberg
Sven Johansson - Kenta Nilsson - Hakan Loob

Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Lennart Svedberg
Ulf Samuelsson - Victor Hedman

Henrik Lundqvist
Peter Lindmark

Finland

Esa Tikkanen - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selanne
Jussi Jokinen - Olli Jokinen - Jari Kurri
Raimo Helminen - Mikko Koivu - Jere Lehtinen
Ville Peltonen - Matti Hagman - Sami Kapanen

Pekka Rautakallio - Teppo Numminen
Kimmo Timonen - Jyrki Lumme
Toni Lydman - Reijo Ruotsalainen

Miikka Kiprusoff
Pekka Rinne

Massive advantage for Sweden in pretty much everything except for backup goalie, and top 6 RW. This makes sense too since Sweden has been a competitive hockey nation for longer than Finland. Swedish hockey has been a legitimate threat since the 50s while the Finns have only started to threaten since the 90s.
 
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Great team selections Sprague Cleghorn! Even if I would put in Pelle Lindbergh in Lindmarks place. And then Sweden has a goalie that can match Finlands back up for back up. But after that I would bet Finland out classes Sweden in the goalie department...

And even if Swedens team is the obvious favourite, that´s a scary Finland with lots of players that has scared me as heck as a swede. Many whom has risen to the oppurtuniy when playing for their national team.
 
Tikkanen-Koivu-Selänne
Peltonen-Jokinen-Kurri
Jokinen-Barkov-Laine
Helminen-Koivu-Lehtinen

Timonen-Numminen
Salo-Lumme
Lydman-Ruotsalainen

Kiprusoff
Rinne
Rask
 
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Henrik Lundqvist
Tommy Salo

Nicklas Lidström - Kenny Jönsson
Börje Salming - Erik Karlsson
Victor Hedman - Niklas Kronwall

Markus Näslund - Peter Forsberg - Henrik Zetterberg
Mats Näslund - Mats Sundin - Daniel Alfredsson
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - HÃ¥kan Loob
Thomas Steen - Nicklas Bäckström - Kent Nilsson
 
Can some of you more knowledgeable folk help me to create an all time best line up for both countries? I suspect Sweden will have the greater depth by quite a margin, but Finland might have enough top end talent to make a good game of it.

Kent Nilsson - Gradin - Sandstrom
Naslund - Forsberg - Alfredsson
Sedin - Sedin - Sundin

Salming - Lidstrom
Ohlund - Hedman
Samuelsson - Samuelsson

Lundqvist - Lindbergh

Lehtinen - S Koivu - Selanne
M Koivu - Jokinen - Kurri
Laing - Barkov - Jokinen

Salo - Lumme
Lydman - Numminen
Timonen - Ruotsolainen

Kiprusoff - Rinne


Had trouble making 4th lines, and I know that quite a few are out of position. Finland really heavy on right wingers.

wtf where is erik karlsson? he is eons better than öhlund and samuelssons ever where.
 
I feel Finland could dress better pests or role players like Tikkanen and Ruutu or Ville Nieminen, getting under some players skin.

Sweden could dress Holmström as a crease crasher. Prime Renberg could also function in that role.
 
Sweden

Markus Naslund - Peter Forsberg - Daniel Alfredsson
Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Backstrom - Mats Sundin
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Anders Hedberg
Sven Johansson - Kenta Nilsson - Hakan Loob

Nicklas Lidstrom - Erik Karlsson
Borje Salming - Lennart Svedberg
Ulf Samuelsson - Victor Hedman

Henrik Lundqvist
Peter Lindmark

Finland

Esa Tikkanen - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selanne
Jussi Jokinen - Olli Jokinen - Jari Kurri
Raimo Helminen - Mikko Koivu - Jere Lehtinen
Ville Peltonen - Matti Hagman - Sami Kapanen

Pekka Rautakallio - Teppo Numminen
Kimmo Timonen - Jyrki Lumme
Toni Lydman - Reijo Ruotsalainen

Miikka Kiprusoff
Pekka Rinne

Massive advantage for Sweden in pretty much everything except for backup goalie, and top 6 RW. This makes sense too since Sweden has been a competitive hockey nation for longer than Finland. Swedish hockey has been a legitimate threat since the 50s while the Finns have only started to threaten since the 90s.

I'd remove your whole 4th line for Patrik Sundstrom - Tomas Steen - Bengt Gustavsson. As far as all-Swedish lines go, that one is just packed with intangibles.
 
wtf where is erik karlsson? he is eons better than öhlund and samuelssons ever where.

Geez. How could I forget Karlsson. He may surpass Lidstrom someday. Tikkanen was another big miss. Good pest and good in big games.
 
I feel Finland could dress better pests or role players like Tikkanen and Ruutu or Ville Nieminen, getting under some players skin.

Sweden could dress Holmström as a crease crasher. Prime Renberg could also function in that role.

the problem with sweden is there's so much skill there that there's no room for dahlen or pj axelsson or gustafsson or holmstrom, probably even not steen or tomas sandstrom. so a guy like zetterberg or alfredsson is going to have to play those roles.

whereas yeah, some of finland's best players ever are guys like tik, lehtinen, and high level defensive competitors like mikko koivu and kapanen who you don't necessarily want to punch in the face.

i wonder, though, if you could put together a decently skilled high end team if you take laine already, the young pre-injury tuomo ruutu, the young pre-injury saku koivu, along with kurri and selanne of course. you don't have the high end depth of sweden but you maybe can almost keep up with their scoring on the top lines while grinding them to death with your checkers.
 
I'm sure you could move some players and lines around, and I've definitely got a clear NHL/90s and later bias, but here's what I put together a while ago:

Sweden

[table=head]L| C| R
40 Henrik Zetterberg |13 Mats Sundin |19 Markus Naslund
22 Daniel Sedin |33 Henrik Sedin |11 Daniel Alfredsson
14 Ulf Sterner |20 Peter Forsberg |15 Kent Nilsson
16 Bengt-Ake Gustafsson |25 Thomas Steen |12 Hakan Loob
[/table]

Extras: 26 Mats Naslund, 9 Michael Nylander

[table=head]D |D
5 Nicklas Lidstrom |21 Borje Salming
6 Calle Johansson |65 Erik Karlsson
7 Stefan Persson |3 Tomas Jonsson
[/table]

Extras: 55 Niklas Kronwall, 2 Mattias Ohlund

[table=head]G
30 Henrik Lundqvist
31 Pelle Lindbergh
[/table]

Extra: 1 Johan Hedberg


Finland
[table=head]L| C| R
10 Esa Tikkanen |12 Olli Jokinen |17 Jari Kurri
26 Jere Lehtinen |11 Saku Koivu |24 Sami Kapanen
16 Ville Peltonen |21 Christian Ruuttu |8 Teemu Selanne
36 Jussi Jokinen |9 Mikko Koivu |23 Ilkka Sinisalo
[/table]

Extras: 51 Valtteri Filppula, 14 Raimo Helminen

[table=head]D |D
44 Kimmo Timonen |27 Teppo Numminen
25 Jyrki Lumme |6 Sami Salo
22 Janne Laukkonen |29 Reijo Ruotsalainen
[/table]

Extras: 5 Toni Lydman, 25 Joni Pitkanen

[table=head]G
34 Miikka Kiprusoff
40 Tuukka Rask
[/table]

Extras: 35 Pekka Rinne

As for who would win, I think it'd depend on whether Lundqvist could outplay Kiprusoff. If he can, I think the Swedes win easily. As it is, the Swedes top-4 is miles better than the Finns, so it would probably take more than Kipper stranding on his head for the Finns to pull the upset.
 
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Ulf Samuelsson and Hedman are both better than those PP specialists you call a bottom pairing.

Hedman's too early in his career, IMO (and, again, I made that a good while ago). Maybe if he keeps his level of play at current levels for another 5 years I'd put him there. Samuelsson, maybe, though I'd probably put Kronwall in for one of the Isles pairing before him. He plays a similar style to Ulf without crossing the line anywhere near as often.
 
Hedman's too early in his career, IMO (and, again, I made that a good while ago). Maybe if he keeps his level of play at current levels for another 5 years I'd put him there. Samuelsson, maybe, though I'd probably put Kronwall in for one of the Isles pairing before him. He plays a similar style to Ulf without crossing the line anywhere near as often.

Hedman has already had 4 seasons as a clear top-10 defenseman in the NHL. Persson and Jonsson were #5/6 PP specialist type players, and have 3 & 73 more career GP than he does.

Samuelsson is far from a maybe. His NHL career was almost as long as theirs were combined, and in his prime he was a 23.5 min player (with very little PP time) and they played 20.2 & 21.0 (with huge amounts of PP time). It's not even remotely close.
 
Hedman has already had 4 seasons as a clear top-10 defenseman in the NHL. Persson and Jonsson were #5/6 PP specialist type players, and have 3 & 73 more career GP than he does.

2 years as a clear top 10, definitely. 3 is pushing it, but I could see an argument for 2013-14. I still want to see 8+ seasons at that level before I start considering him with country-mates who have been up there that long already. Dropping Persson for Samuelsson I could see. I think you need to consider Jonsson's SEL career as well as his NHL one, though, and it's a pretty good one.

Samuelsson is far from a maybe. His NHL career was almost as long as theirs were combined, and in his prime he was a 23.5 min player (with very little PP time) and they played 20.2 & 21.0 (with huge amounts of PP time). It's not even remotely close.

Where are you getting the icetime numbers from? I'm under the impression that keeping track of that was not done in the NHL until the mid-90s...
 
2 years as a clear top 10, definitely. 3 is pushing it, but I could see an argument for 2013-14. I still want to see 8+ seasons at that level before I start considering him with country-mates who have been up there that long already.

ok, I agree he's not Lidstrom or Salming... but as for those who were never at that level or even close....?

Where are you getting the icetime numbers from? I'm under the impression that keeping track of that was not done in the NHL until the mid-90s...

1998-99, actually.

Icetime can be reasonably estimated using situational GF:GA data. The players who play the most in each situation end up with the most events in those situations and from there it's just a matter of quantifying it.

I'm not the one who did the work, I just refer to it regularly.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hco3hujqqvrdx8g/NHL68-06TOI.xls?dl=0
 
ok, I agree he's not Lidstrom or Salming... but as for those who were never at that level or even close....?

Fair enough, I guess I didn't really chose my words carefully enough there. Hedman's peak is clearly above Jonsson and Persson, definltely, but I still require longevity unless that peak is absurd (like Karlsson's). I wouldn't require 8 years of top-10 to put him on the all-time Swedish team, but I do think he needs to play more. I'd definitely still put Calle Johansson ahead of him at the moment based on consistent, long-term play.

1998-99, actually.

Icetime can be reasonably estimated using situational GF:GA data. The players who play the most in each situation end up with the most events in those situations and from there it's just a matter of quantifying it.

I'm not the one who did the work, I just refer to it regularly.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hco3hujqqvrdx8g/NHL68-06TOI.xls?dl=0

Interesting. I'll take a look at this when I get a chance. I assume 98-06 correlates very well with the actual records?
 
For the record, I just checked THN's annual yearbook rankings, and Hedman was 11th among D-men following the 2014 season, and 4th following 2015 and 2016. As a Norris finalist, he's a very strong bet to be 4th once again (a non-finalist with an even stronger track record/reputation, like Doughty or Keith will place ahead of him, and probably rightly so). Calling him a "top-10 defenseman for the last 4 seasons" probably underrates him.

(for the record, I'm only stating the mainstream opinion here and not my own personal one - I'm a little harder on Hedman, partially because his coaches don't seem to give him "elite #1 D" icetime for whatever reason)

Fair enough, I guess I didn't really chose my words carefully enough there. Hedman's peak is clearly above Jonsson and Persson, definltely, but I still require longevity unless that peak is absurd (like Karlsson's). I wouldn't require 8 years of top-10 to put him on the all-time Swedish team, but I do think he needs to play more. I'd definitely still put Calle Johansson ahead of him at the moment based on consistent, long-term play.

And that's fair about Johansson, because for most of the period between 1991 and 2003, he was a #1-2 defenseman. He doesn't have Hedman's peak, but he's put up more very good seasons.

But Jonsson and Persson? Forget the league, you wouldn't even get universal agreement that they were top-4 on their own teams during their careers.

I value longevity too, but like I said, Persson has played 73 NHL games more than Hedman at this point. You can't mean his post-NHL time in Sweden's tier 3 league, can you? Or his time in the top league as a 19-22 year old?

Jonsson at least has some interesting seasons in Sweden before and after the NHL, but do we know anything about them other than his GP-G-A-Pts? Was he considered one of the best few players there? All-star teams? Awards? He did spend his very best years in the NHL and at his very best, he was a #5-6 ES defenseman who got PP time.

I don't bring these two up just to nitpick about Hedman/Samuelsson, though. He's only one guy. There's Ohlund, Johnsson, Norstrom, Jonsson too. All heavily relied on by their teams and for much longer, too. Nitpicking would be bringing up Olausson, Kjell Samuelsson, Hjalmarsson, Kronwall, Ragnarsson and Edler. Those guys could go either way.

Interesting. I'll take a look at this when I get a chance. I assume 98-06 correlates very well with the actual records?

Those are the actual numbers for those seasons. But yes, they've been tested against seasons with actual known results in order to tweak and ensure accuracy in older seasons.
 
For the record, I just checked THN's annual yearbook rankings, and Hedman was 11th among D-men following the 2014 season, and 4th following 2015 and 2016. As a Norris finalist, he's a very strong bet to be 4th once again (a non-finalist with an even stronger track record/reputation, like Doughty or Keith will place ahead of him, and probably rightly so). Calling him a "top-10 defenseman for the last 4 seasons" probably underrates him.

(for the record, I'm only stating the mainstream opinion here and not my own personal one - I'm a little harder on Hedman, partially because his coaches don't seem to give him "elite #1 D" icetime for whatever reason)



And that's fair about Johansson, because for most of the period between 1991 and 2003, he was a #1-2 defenseman. He doesn't have Hedman's peak, but he's put up more very good seasons.

But Jonsson and Persson? Forget the league, you wouldn't even get universal agreement that they were top-4 on their own teams during their careers.

I value longevity too, but like I said, Persson has played 73 NHL games more than Hedman at this point. You can't mean his post-NHL time in Sweden's tier 3 league, can you? Or his time in the top league as a 19-22 year old?

Jonsson at least has some interesting seasons in Sweden before and after the NHL, but do we know anything about them other than his GP-G-A-Pts? Was he considered one of the best few players there? All-star teams? Awards? He did spend his very best years in the NHL and at his very best, he was a #5-6 ES defenseman who got PP time.

I don't bring these two up just to nitpick about Hedman/Samuelsson, though. He's only one guy. There's Ohlund, Johnsson, Norstrom, Jonsson too. All heavily relied on by their teams and for much longer, too. Nitpicking would be bringing up Olausson, Kjell Samuelsson, Hjalmarsson, Kronwall, Ragnarsson and Edler. Those guys could go either way.



Those are the actual numbers for those seasons. But yes, they've been tested against seasons with actual known results in order to tweak and ensure accuracy in older seasons.

Is this Kenny Jönsson we are talking about? He won best defensemen at the Olympics in 2006. He walked out of the league long before he should. A great great player!
 
Not that Ulf Samuelsson is the only option for the position, but he is a fair choice to get in there to both thrash some egos and to also at this level in a serviceable way shut the offense down. Not the worlds best defensive guy but not a real liability either, and he also to some degree could make the first pass so the puck wont have to stay in our zone all the time.
 
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I somehow have trouble seeing Jussi Jokinen in All-time lineup. I know he has the numbers from NHL, but he really isn´t difference maker. In supporting roles he is fine.

When I saw Mikael Granlund mentioned first I thought... not yet. But in truth he was our best forward in 2014 olympics. Best player in last years WHC. (Yeah Selänne and Laine were the selections, but I feel that both times selectors went with better story) He has the ability to make players around him better. There is something Saku Koivu like in Granlund in a way that he probably never be as big impact player in NHL that he is to our NT.

Janne Laukkanen was mentioned. Had decent puck moving skills in Europe, but couldn´t play that role in NHL. I quite liked him. But not in top 6 all-time. Unable to play full season in NHL. Lot of injuries. Kind of link him to Sami Salo. In Senators before him. Also the injury history. Kind of funny story

From Tales from the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Ice hockey wasn´t the safest sport for oft-injured Penguins defenseman Janne Laukkanen.

Floor hockey, as it turned out, wasn´t much safer.

Laukkanen sustained a torn anterior cruciate ligament one summer of the result of mishaps from floor hockey game and a wrestling match.

Both events occured at the bachelor party of Laukkanen´s Finnish countryman and former teammate, Sami Salo

Maybe Salo got the unlucky bug from "Lelu".
 
Not that Ulf Samuelsson is the only option for the position, but he is a fair choice to get in there to both thrash some egos and to also at this level in a serviceable way shut the offense down. Not the worlds best defensive guy but not a real liability either, and he also to some degree could make the first pass so the puck wont have to stay in our zone all the time.

That's not the way I remember his defensive reputation. He was a legit shutdown player, not top-10 in the league good, but if he was your best guy you could win the cup.
 

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