Federov's Hart Win

daver

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It was not an overwhelmingly strong win given his Selke win that year and 2nd in points, and that Wayne didn't even register with Hart voters.

Were the voters not as impressed as some with the value of his season? The two goalies behind him in voting did not seem to have era best seasons.

Joe Sakic had a much more dominant Hart win in 2001 with similarly great 2-way season.
 

ESH

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You don’t think Hasek’s season was impressive that year?

Obviously it wasn’t a super dominant win for Fedorov, but nobody else was close really. Voting was just spread out.
 

hacksaw7

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It was Fedorov at his absolute peak. Offensively, defensively...everything clicked for him that year. This was the last season of Gretzky being the consensus best scorer in the league...and who knows if that would've even been the case had Mario tried to play the full season. But the Kings faded badly. Totally dropped off the radar...Detroit was an exciting up and coming team and Fedorov was an exotic new superstar. The perfect storm for him to win the Hart

I mean it could've gone to Hasek too but I don't feel people were quite sold on him just yet...but I mean a sub 2.00 gaa in that era with a .930 save percentage was pretty otherworldly. I don't know how many official starts he made that year...got into 58 games but I think. 53 starts? Maybe that hurt him a tad? Not quite enough starts. Guys like Irbe, Cujo, and Roy had heavier workloads that year
 

Pominville Knows

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It was not an overwhelmingly strong win given his Selke win that year and 2nd in points, and that Wayne didn't even register with Hart voters.

Were the voters not as impressed as some with the value of his season? The two goalies behind him in voting did not seem to have era best seasons.

Joe Sakic had a much more dominant Hart win in 2001 with similarly great 2-way season.
Yeah, ok, Sakic's was better. But let's not pretend that Selke finishes registers all that well for the Hart. Fedorov had a great season.
 

Dingo

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Sakic had less comp that year, and the hart trophy is a subjective silly trophy anyways. i mean, its the number one trophy to many, but the voting guidelines are very pliable and it eliminates anyone who missed the playoffs while also severely hurting players on really good teams
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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It was not an overwhelmingly strong win given his Selke win that year and 2nd in points, and that Wayne didn't even register with Hart voters.

Were the voters not as impressed as some with the value of his season? The two goalies behind him in voting did not seem to have era best seasons.

Joe Sakic had a much more dominant Hart win in 2001 with similarly great 2-way season.

First, it's Fedorov.

Second, it was an incredible season. When Yzerman was out of the lineup he (Fedorov) put that Detroit team on his back and played incredible, dominant two-way hockey and Detroit had one of the best records in the league.

Third, Joe Sakic and "2-way" hockey have never belonged in the same sentence together. He was simply OK defensively in his best years. Full stop.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Were the voters not as impressed as some with the value of his season? The two goalies behind him in voting did not seem to have era best seasons.

hasek had statistically the best goalie season in twenty years, and vanbiesbrouck led an expansion team to within a point of the playoffs.

and for context, beezer maybe looked even a little better than he was (which was brilliant) because the last three expansion teams were among the worst teams of all time.
 

hacksaw7

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hasek had statistically the best goalie season in twenty years, and vanbiesbrouck led an expansion team to within a point of the playoffs.

and for context, beezer maybe looked even a little better than he was (which was brilliant) because the last three expansion teams were among the worst teams of all time.

Roy was also pretty damn good that year. Tied for the league lead in shutouts. 68 games which is 10/11 more than Hasek/Beezer, .918 save percentage.

He went 13-1-4 between late Jan and late March of 1994. Carried a team that was kinda pedestrian/Cup hangover that looked like it would have an 80 something point season to 96 points
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Roy was also pretty damn good that year. Tied for the league lead in shutouts. 68 games which is 10/11 more than Hasek/Beezer, .918 save percentage.

He went 13-1-4 between late Jan and late March of 1994. Carried a team that was kinda pedestrian/Cup hangover that looked like it would have an 80 something point season to 96 points

1993-94 was the first year of what was to come in the league and the beginning of the super goalie era.

Rookie Brodeur. Hasek has his coming out party. People breaking into the league start to mimic Roy's butterfly style. The goaltending showdown between McLean and Richter was a highlight of the 94 finals. Beezer makes an expansion franchise look credible in their first year, bucking the trend of absolutely sucking.
 
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MS

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hasek had statistically the best goalie season in twenty years, and vanbiesbrouck led an expansion team to within a point of the playoffs.

and for context, beezer maybe looked even a little better than he was (which was brilliant) because the last three expansion teams were among the worst teams of all time.

Voters hadn't adjusted to the fact that we were about to head into the Dead Puck Era.

120 points didn't seem nearly as impressive in 1994 as they would for Sakic in 2001 considering the seasons Gilmour/Oates/Lafontaine had had in 1992-93.

And the type of goalie seasons that wouldn't seem quite as impressive by 2001 (when we'd seen lots of them by that point) seemed astonishing in 1994 because nobody had been putting up seasons like that since the mid-1970s. Not that Hasek's season wasn't spectacular, but compared to the numbers we'd seen for the previous 15 years it looked almost unthinkable.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Voters hadn't adjusted to the fact that we were about to head into the Dead Puck Era.

120 points didn't seem nearly as impressive in 1994 as they would for Sakic in 2001 considering the seasons Gilmour/Oates/Lafontaine had had in 1992-93.

And the type of goalie seasons that wouldn't seem quite as impressive by 2001 (when we'd seen lots of them by that point) seemed astonishing in 1994 because nobody had been putting up seasons like that since the mid-1970s. Not that Hasek's season wasn't spectacular, but compared to the numbers we'd seen for the previous 15 years it looked almost unthinkable.

2001 was the highest scoring year of the dead puck era. (1996-97 to 2003-2004)

EDIT: Also, 120 points AND Selke caliber defense are pretty damn impressive, I'd say. If Bergeron were to put up 100 points a year and win the Selke you can bet that he's going to get a Lindsay and a Hart as well.

I don't think you understand just how good Fedorov was over his career in Detroit. There were times he mentally checked out but he came up huge in the playoffs (4 straight 20 point playoffs) and was as important to those Detroit teams as Forsberg was to Colorado.

 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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It was, but by then we'd got used to seeing guys win Art Ross trophies with 95 points and 118 points looked HUGE. But in 1994, compared to the offensive explosion in 1993, 120 points didn't seem as impressive as it really was in hindsight.

Read my edit.

And if you're really bored, here's a long video of his play.
 
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Dingo

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First, it's Fedorov.

Second, it was an incredible season. When Yzerman was out of the lineup he (Fedorov) put that Detroit team on his back and played incredible, dominant two-way hockey and Detroit had one of the best records in the league.

Third, Joe Sakic and "2-way" hockey have never belonged in the same sentence together. He was simply OK defensively in his best years. Full stop.
i was actually surprised to find out, years ago and from this site, that Joe had high selke finishes, and a defensive reputation. It never occurred to me while watching and i dont really remember it being a part of the talking heads discussions.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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i was actually surprised to find out, years ago and from this site, that Joe had high selke finishes, and a defensive reputation. It never occurred to me while watching and i dont really remember it being a part of the talking heads discussions.

I honestly don't know how or why. He was runner up in 2001 when he should have been nowhere near the discussion.

I remember that Avs team almost always having the puck. That team could ice Rob Blake one shift, Adam Foote the next, and Ray Bourque after that. (sometimes 2 of the 3 were on the ice together)
 
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MS

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Read my edit.

And if you're really bored, here's a long video of his play.


What? I'm not criticizing Fedorov's play at all. His season was awesome and fully deserving of the Hart.

The initial post was asking why he didn't get a bigger share of the Hart vote and I was trying to explain that part of it was that voters were conditioned to think that 120-point seasons were 'pretty normal' after the 1992-93 scoring explosion so didn't give his season the respect it deserved, while Hasek's season statistically was like something from another era. I remember discussions from the time where media types were asking if someone could win the Hart with 'only' 120 points.

If Fedorov would have had the exact same season 5 years later, he would have cakewalked to the Hart as Sakic did in 2001.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Roy was also pretty damn good that year. Tied for the league lead in shutouts. 68 games which is 10/11 more than Hasek/Beezer, .918 save percentage.

He went 13-1-4 between late Jan and late March of 1994. Carried a team that was kinda pedestrian/Cup hangover that looked like it would have an 80 something point season to 96 points

absolutely. if roy had had the same season in '93, he would have won the vezina running away.

the way i like to think about '94 is roy got a gimme vezina runner-up in '91. he was the second best goalie by default, because there wasn't anyone to push him. but he's kind of "owed" on in '94 so it evens out.


1993-94 was the first year of what was to come in the league and the beginning of the super goalie era.

Rookie Brodeur. Hasek has his coming out party. People breaking into the league start to mimic Roy's butterfly style. The goaltending showdown between McLean and Richter was a highlight of the 94 finals. Beezer makes an expansion franchise look credible in their first year, bucking the trend of absolutely sucking.

in retrospect, '94 does seem like a super turning point. i'd never thought of that before.

i think felix potvin and jocelyn thibault are the other names that belong in this conversation. potvin was the first roy/allaire acolyte to step in and be immediately successful and even though brodeur would come in soon after to massively eclipse him, i think potvin was the real signal of this new wave.

potvin's rookie year was like lundqvist's rookie year smushed together with miller's rookie year. he was a calder finalist (ahead of lindros) and a vezina finalist, then made it to the campbell's finals. less than a month after gretzky scored that game seven hat trick to get into the finals, thibault was taken tenth overall in the '93 draft.


It was, but by then we'd got used to seeing guys win Art Ross trophies with 95 points and 118 points looked HUGE. But in 1994, compared to the offensive explosion in 1993, 120 points didn't seem as impressive as it really was in hindsight.

my memory is it felt inconceivable that a guy could come that close to winning the art ross while also being the best defensive forward in the league.

that said, 120 is a big number and looks better in retrospect, but that wasn't exactly a low scoring season. like, i don't think you can compare it to sakic's 118. in 2001, your 3 through 5 in the scoring race are career years by elias, allison, kovalev, and straka, all with 95 or 96 points. in '94, your 3 through 5 are oates, gilmour, recchi, bure, roenick with 107 to 112 points. both in terms of raw numbers and separation from the pack, fedorov's 120, as purely an offensive accomplishment, wasn't

totally agree with you about the goalie numbers, though. in 1994, a goalie falling below 2.00 was like mcdavid's scoring pace this year, just totally unfathomable. but by the end of the decade, when you've seen guys like byron dafoe or ron tugnutt doing it, hasek's numbers aren't quite as mindblowing, though obviously still bonkersly good.


i was actually surprised to find out, years ago and from this site, that Joe had high selke finishes, and a defensive reputation. It never occurred to me while watching and i dont really remember it being a part of the talking heads discussions.

imo, sakic's selke runner up is a grain of salt selke placement, much like martin st louis in 2004. these are good two way players having MVP scoring seasons, and not to be taken seriously as something in the ballpark of what fedorov did. ditto crosby's fourth place finish a couple of years ago.

in terms of seriousness, i'd take fedorov's two way as most legitimately deserving of selke recognition. to this day, i've never seen dominance on both sides of the puck like fedorov's 100 point seasons.

after that, i'd put the best two-way years of datsyuk, barkov, kurri, and modano

then gilmour, forsberg, and yzerman.

then ron francis and brind'amour.

then sakic, MSL, crosby, and so on.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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in retrospect, '94 does seem like a super turning point. i'd never thought of that before.

i think felix potvin and jocelyn thibault are the other names that belong in this conversation. potvin was the first roy/allaire acolyte to step in and be immediately successful and even though brodeur would come in soon after to massively eclipse him, i think potvin was the real signal of this new wave.

Yes, I often use 1993-94 as a reference point for the start of the modern era of goaltending. Expansion and the end of the dynasty era balanced the playing field somewhat and created more competition for goalie awards, butterfly goalies replaced standup goalies league-wide and drove up the average level of performance, and a deeper international pool of talent entered the league from Europe, the USA and Quebec.

For example, here are all the non-Canadian goalies with 10+ GP in 1988-89:

John Vanbiesbrouck 56
Jon Casey 55
Tom Barrasso 54
Kari Takko 32
Bob Mason 22

And here's the same list in 1993-94:

Arturs Irbe 74
Mike Richter 68
Dominik Hasek 58
Jon Casey 57
John Vanbiesbrouck 57
Guy Hebert 52
Tom Barrasso 44
Chris Terreri 44
Tommy Soderstrom 34
Damian Rhodes 22
Robb Stauber 22
John Blue 18
Pat Jablonski 15
Andrei Trefilov 11
Mikhail Shtalenkov 10
 

tabness

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I'm assuming this topic finds its genesis from the could Kucherov be the best Russian player one lol?

Anyway, just to add something not yet mentioned, Fedorov had the unfortunate situation of playing on the early nineties Red Wings powerplay which was split between him and Yzerman on different units. Thus while the Red Wings scored 85 powerplay goals, Fedorov was only on the ice for 51 of them (really only more than half due to playing a bigger role cause of Yzerman's injury), and he scored only 28 powerplay points (as compared to Gretzky's 61). You can sort of say that Fedorov himself was a bit individualistic which didn't help his powerplay numbers and that's on him, but what if he got to actually play more with Yzerman on the powerplay (only 5 powerplay points together)? He'd likely make up the 10 points Gretzky had on him with different deployment. Same thing the year before in 1992-1993, the Wings scored 115 powerplay goals, Fedorov was only on the ice for 52 of them, scoring 31 points. He'd be a 100 point player that year if he got to play more, and play with Yzerman (just 3 points together).
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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I'm assuming this topic finds its genesis from the could Kucherov be the best Russian player one lol?

Anyway, just to add something not yet mentioned, Fedorov had the unfortunate situation of playing on the early nineties Red Wings powerplay which was split between him and Yzerman on different units. Thus while the Red Wings scored 85 powerplay goals, Fedorov was only on the ice for 51 of them (really only more than half due to playing a bigger role cause of Yzerman's injury), and he scored only 28 powerplay points (as compared to Gretzky's 61). You can sort of say that Fedorov himself was a bit individualistic which didn't help his powerplay numbers and that's on him, but what if he got to actually play more with Yzerman on the powerplay (only 5 powerplay points together)? He'd likely make up the 10 points Gretzky had on him with different deployment. Same thing the year before in 1992-1993, the Wings scored 115 powerplay goals, Fedorov was only on the ice for 52 of them, scoring 31 points. He'd be a 100 point player that year if he got to play more, and play with Yzerman (just 3 points together).

Fedorov probably hits 100 points in 92-93 if he played in all 84 games. (87 in 73, or 1.192 points per game, 100 points over 84 games)

Someone posted Fedorov's scoring numbers in another thread as well. He scored considerably more when Yzerman was out of the lineup in 1993-94 than in. I think it was a difference between something like a 95ish point pace with SY in versus a 130+ point pace without SY.
 

MS

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my memory is it felt inconceivable that a guy could come that close to winning the art ross while also being the best defensive forward in the league.

that said, 120 is a big number and looks better in retrospect, but that wasn't exactly a low scoring season. like, i don't think you can compare it to sakic's 118. in 2001, your 3 through 5 in the scoring race are career years by elias, allison, kovalev, and straka, all with 95 or 96 points. in '94, your 3 through 5 are oates, gilmour, recchi, bure, roenick with 107 to 112 points. both in terms of raw numbers and separation from the pack, fedorov's 120, as purely an offensive accomplishment, wasn't

totally agree with you about the goalie numbers, though. in 1994, a goalie falling below 2.00 was like mcdavid's scoring pace this year, just totally unfathomable. but by the end of the decade, when you've seen guys like byron dafoe or ron tugnutt doing it, hasek's numbers aren't quite as mindblowing, though obviously still bonkersly good.

I distinctly remember discussions that year about how underwhelming 'only' 120 points was for a Hart winner - outside of one Messier win, it was the lowest by a winner since Bobby Clarke - and how in such a 'bad' year for forwards that this was the year to give the award to a goalie.

Scoring 120 points while winning the Selke is incredible ... but I don't think it was truly appreciated properly at the time. Doug Gilmour had scored 127 points and won the Selke the previous year, so it wasn't even the best season of the type on paper in a two-year window.

On the goalies, yeah. I remember being a kid and looking at numbers for Parent and Esposito from the 1970s and thinking how crazy it was that guys put up sub-2.00 GAAs and 10+ shutouts and that it would probably never happen again. And then 1993-94 Hasek happened.
 
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Sadekuuro

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in terms of seriousness, i'd take fedorov's two way as most legitimately deserving of selke recognition. to this day, i've never seen dominance on both sides of the puck like fedorov's 100 point seasons.

after that, i'd put the best two-way years of datsyuk, barkov, kurri, and modano

then gilmour, forsberg, and yzerman.

then ron francis and brind'amour.

then sakic, MSL, crosby, and so on.

I remember thinking long and hard about this in 2009 when Datsyuk had hit a level nobody imagined even a few years earlier, and eventually concluding that I still couldn't put it above Fedorov's best. He skated like he was born with blades on his feet.
 

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