F Ivan Demidov - SKA St. Petersburg, KHL (2024, 5th, MTL)

[The Last Red]

So Gretzky was a nothing when he was in junior because he hadn't played in a pro league yet. When everyone who has seen Demidov play considers him to be a great talent there is nothing to argue.

So if Demidov scores 50 points this season for SKA, I guess he then becomes the “better” prospect, as per the Michkovites’ logic here?

I think they’ll both be be very good NHL players, we’ll see in a decade who’s better, if either.

 

[dgibb10]

I find any stat will be affected when you compare players with dissimilar usage. If you are comparing 1st liner to 1st liner, 3rd liner to 3rd liner, or 1st pair to first pair it works. If you compare a 3rd liner on a relatively deep team to a 1st liner on a weaker team and they have a similar P/60 it does not mean that that 3rd liner would have the same numbers if elevated to a 1st line. In his role he his benefiting from playing against a 3rd D-pair most shifts. That 1st liner looks no better than our great 3rd liner on P/60 but he is doing it against the oppositions best d- pair. But if you are comparing players who play the same role, then most stats tell you something

Sorted by points/game.

 

[CDN24]

View attachment 904841
Sorted by points/game.

That stat Tells me Hughes is one hell of a player.... Not that I didn't already know that. He may have the best contract in the league from the team perspective

 

[Baksfamous112]

I find any stat will be affected when you compare players with dissimilar usage. If you are comparing 1st liner to 1st liner, 3rd liner to 3rd liner, or 1st pair to first pair it works. If you compare a 3rd liner on a relatively deep team to a 1st liner on a weaker team and they have a similar P/60 it does not mean that that 3rd liner would have the same numbers if elevated to a 1st line. In his role he his benefiting from playing against a 3rd D-pair most shifts. That 1st liner looks no better than our great 3rd liner on P/60 but he is doing it against the oppositions best d- pair. But if you are comparing players who play the same role, then most stats tell you something

P/60 doesn't take into account your teammates, deployment and opposition. Pretty useless stats if you ask me. He only went with the P/60 stats because it was the one stat that gave his point more merits.

 

[dgibb10]

P/60 doesn't take into account your teammates, deployment and opposition. Pretty useless stats if you ask me. He only went with the P/60 stats because it was the one stat that gave his point more merits.

Ahh you're right.

I forgot to look at and acknowledge the deployment, usage, and opposition of every single player to play in the last 15 years. Silly me. That's only hundreds of guys.

Do you think McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Matthews, etc were not getting favourable deployments?

 

[dgibb10]

P/60 doesn't take into account your teammates, deployment and opposition. Pretty useless stats if you ask me. He only went with the P/60 stats because it was the one stat that gave his point more merits.

Just for you tho.

Zone deployments of the top 20 guys.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Ahh you're right.

I forgot to look at and acknowledge the deployment, usage, and opposition of every single player to play in the last 15 years. Silly me. That's only hundreds of guys.

Do you think McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Matthews, etc were not getting favourable deployments?

That’s not the point. You specifically said Hughes was by « far » the most productive forward drafted since 2018 and went on to pick-pocket his age 20-22 P/60 stats to support your claim.

Both Demidov and Michkov has the tools to be as productive offensively as Hughes is and you picking very specific stats and timeline in Hughes career to say that’s impossible shows yet again how biased you are when it comes to NJ players. Not the first time you’re being called out about it either

List of players from age 20-22 since 2007, sorted by points/60.

View attachment 904673

Jack Hughes is at worst a top 2 prospect from the last 7 years behind Bedard.

And in terms of actual NHLers, he's BY FAR the most productive forward drafted since 2018.

People throw him out there like he's an easy thing to reach

 

[dgibb10]

That’s not the point. You specifically said Hughes was by « far » the most productive forward drafted since 2018 and went on to pick-pocket his age 20-22 P/60 stats to support your claim.

Both Demidov and Michkov has the tools to be as productive offensively as Hughes is and you picking very specific stats and timeline in Hughes career to say that’s impossible shows yet again how biased you are when it comes to NJ players. Not the first time you’re being called out about it either

Those were 2 seperate points you tried to combine together.

Point A was showing just how high level Hughes production, using a comparison of all guys since the salary cap era started.

And how throwing him out as an expectation for a prospect is pretty ridiculous.

I'm happy to provide the numbers on why Hughes crushes every other forward drafted since 2018 if you like.

 

[the paisanos guy]

Just for you tho.

View attachment 904888
Zone deployments of the top 20 guys.

...this data is indicating that, except for Robertson, he has the highest proportion of offensive-zone faceoffs to neutral zone and defensive zone faceoffs. It supports the argument that Hughes is getting favourable deployment compared to the other players in the Top 20.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Those were 2 seperate points you tried to combine together.

Point A was showing just how high level Hughes production, using a comparison of all guys since the salary cap era started.

And how throwing him out as an expectation for a prospect is pretty ridiculous.

I'm happy to provide the numbers on why Hughes crushes every other forward drafted since 2018 if you like.

How high production level is when healthy*

Throwing him out there as comparable in terms of talent is more than fair. The point that was made to you was that if Demidov and Michkov were in NA, they would have been seen as similar level of prospect as Hughes was, which is absolutely fair.

Again, you singled out one stat that most benefited your point while also choosing a very specific timeline.

Not interested in the bolded. I’m sure you’ll be able to come out with something very specific like goals per fart taken between age 21 and 217 days and 22 and 112 days to prove your point

...this data is indicating that, except for Robertson, he has the highest proportion of offensive-zone faceoffs to neutral zone and defensive zone faceoffs. It supports the argument that Hughes is getting favourable deployment compared to the other players in the Top 20.

Exactly. I swear this guy…

 

[dgibb10]

...this data is indicating that, except for Robertson, he has the highest proportion of offensive-zone faceoffs to neutral zone and defensive zone faceoffs. It supports the argument that Hughes is getting favourable deployment compared to the other players in the Top 20.

Except he's getting less ozone starts than half the guys.

As a scorer, I'd rather have as many ozone starts as possible.

And when you realize that a 4% difference in zone starts adds up to just about 1 shift a game, you realize it doesn't mean nearly as much as you think. Unless we are talking about ridiculous usage, (like that 4th line in washington getting 3% ozone and 30% dzone starts), or Makar and Mackinnon

Do you genuinely think hughes getting 1 less ozone start and 1 less dzone start a game than a Eichel is more favourable usage?

Hughes starts a very high % of his shifts on the fly because the Devils have better face off guys (the rest of the team wins 55% of their draws). Simple as that.

 

[dgibb10]

How high production level is when healthy*

Throwing him out there as comparable in terms of talent is more than fair. The point that was made to you was that if Demidov and Michkov were in NA, they would have been seen as similar level of prospect as Hughes was, which is absolutely fair.

Again, you singled out one stat that most benefited your point while also choosing a very specific timeline.

Not interested in the bolded. I’m sure you’ll be able to come out with something very specific like goals per fart taken between age 21 and 217 days and 22 and 112 days to prove your point


Exactly. I swear this guy…

Hughes leads all players drafted since 2018 in points per game. Simple enough for your brain to handle?

 

[SlafySZN]

Delete.

 

[the paisanos guy]

Except he's getting less ozone starts than half the guys.

As a scorer, I'd rather have as many ozone starts as possible.

And when you realize that a 4% difference in zone starts adds up to just about 1 shift a game, you realize it doesn't mean nearly as much as you think. Unless we are talking about ridiculous usage, (like that 4th line in washington getting 3% ozone and 30% dzone starts), or Makar and Mackinnon

Do you genuinely think hughes getting 1 less ozone start and 1 less dzone start a game than a Eichel is more favourable usage?

Hughes starts a very high % of his shifts on the fly because the Devils have better face off guys (the rest of the team wins 55% of their draws). Simple as that.

What do you think is happening when a change happens on the fly? The team is transitioning to an attack. Do you think that would help Hughes' offensive numbers or hurt them having a higher proportion of starts on the fly?

Listen, Hughes is an incredible player and if Demidov ends up as good as him I would be absolutely over the moon. But I'm not sure why you're here in a Demidov thread desperately cherry picking and misinterpreting stats.

 

[dgibb10]

What do you think is happening when a change happens on the fly? The team is transitioning to an attack. Do you think that would help Hughes' offensive numbers or hurt them having a higher proportion of starts on the fly?

Listen, Hughes is an incredible player and if Demidov ends up as good as him I would be absolutely over the moon. But I'm not sure why you're here in a Demidov thread desperately cherry picking and misinterpreting stats.

Or it's going the other way. Or it's been a dump and change. Now if you claim NJD has been a strong possession team, which means he starts more of his shifts with the puck, that might hold some weight. To which I would respond that Hughes excellence is a big reason FOR that possession dominance.

Or do you think NJD is on the attack every single time they make a change. Because that would be mighty impressive to dominate play that much.

Points/60 and points/game are cherry picked numbers? I legitimately don't know how much more basic you can get than POINTS

No, it seems the ones trying to cherry pick are those pointing out minor differences in zone starts among a bunch of guys who ALL get used in offensive situations by their coaches (because that's a coaches job).

 

[Baksfamous112]

What do you think is happening when a change happens on the fly? The team is transitioning to an attack. Do you think that would help Hughes' offensive numbers or hurt them having a higher proportion of starts on the fly?

Listen, Hughes is an incredible player and if Demidov ends up as good as him I would be absolutely over the moon. But I'm not sure why you're here in a Demidov thread desperately cherry picking and misinterpreting stats.

Hughes can’t seem to be able to stay healthy either, that’s why he’s cherry picking stats like P/60.

I think at this point it’s just jealousy. Like that Toronto fan Kreb who’s been in every possible habs thread trying to convince people every single prospects and player we have is trash haha

 

[Lazytrout]

SKA start their season tomorrow, should be a good watch.

did i get redirected to the Hughes thread? oh wait there are none!! and this is a DEMIDOV thread...i wish i was a mod.

it's the same handful of obnoxious posters in every thread, it's like they come in here to smell their own farts and can't get enough.

 

[Xirik]

Is there any place that posts lines or potential lines for KHL teams?

 

[Kshahdoo]

Is there any place that posts lines or potential lines for KHL teams?

I'm afraid you won't find it in English. If Russian is ok then SKA lines will be posted on their VK page 1 hour before games. VK.com | VK

And probably here Хоккейный клуб СКА

 

[santapore]

like i said little while ago. under 25 points. and people losing their minds. he's so raw and he's gonna take some time.

 

[Wats]

like i said little while ago. under 25 points. and people losing their minds. he's so raw and he's gonna take some time.

Agreed. If he stays on SKA and gets anything close to 25 points on 4th line it's not too bad.

 

[Frank Drebin]

The khl-by-age comparisons are one of the most absurd things I’ve seen

Young players production in the khl is so heavily influenced by restrictive ice times and usage, so you’re never going to get an accurate comparison between two players on different teams under different coaches during different seasons

 

[Hanji]

I'm afraid you won't find it in English. If Russian is ok then SKA lines will be posted on their VK page 1 hour before games. VK.com | VK

And probably here Хоккейный клуб СКА

Hot dog. SKA St. Petersburg have a lot of sweet promos.

 

[barriers]

Is there any place that posts lines or potential lines for KHL teams?

Kshahdoo's sources will get you answers before the game starts but

KHL 2024/2025 scores, Hockey Russia - Flashscore

KHL 2024/2025 scores on Flashscore.com offer livescore, results, KHL 2024/2025 standings and match details.

www.flashscore.com

Usually has lines up by the time the games are over

 

[SlafySZN]

Playing with Kuznetsov on the 3rd line today! Starts in about an hour