Yeah I think they would have traded down from the 5th, maybe to CGY to secure them Tij?
F Ivan Demidov - SKA St. Petersburg, KHL (2024, 5th, MTL)
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HFBoards is well aware that today is election day in the US. We ask respectfully to focus on hockey and not politics.
So in other words, a “1st overall talent” is a fluid, subjective, nebulous concept that doesn’t really mean anything. Okay sure, I’ll let you have this because it seems like you desperately need it for some reason. But the fact is that he went 5th, i.e., at least 4 teams definitely didn’t think he was a 1st overall talent. End of discussion.
Tanknation
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I agree. I have no idea what transpired but Montreal was very lucky not to give up any assets to pick 3rd.
KevSkillz4
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MHL is in the same tier of USHL. Demidov at 17 years old put 2 pts per game, Jack Hughes at 17 years old in USHL, put 2 pts per game, but... play with Boldy, Zegras and Caufield.
That's impressive.
That's impressive.
LeBrun is a Clown
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CanadienShark
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Why do you even do this? You come out of hiding once a year with hot takes that everyone laughs at, are wrong, then go into hiding until the following year.
LeBrun is a Clown
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Crazy , because nhl scouts shared the same opinion I had on Buuim amongst many others, how come you stalk my posts and reply to all of them?
I made this comment to open a discussion with my opinion
I also don’t have time to simply post on HF all day , it’s not hiding, Mr. 38k posts
CanadienShark
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Buuim again? You made the assertion that I'm obsessed with Buuim in another thread, yet I've barely said more than a couple sentences about him.
Stalking? Go back to your cave, or bridge. I'm posting on threads that show up on the main boards. It's just that when I see stupid opinions, it's easy to call them out. You make it easy.
See you next year.
Kucherov 2.0 right here
1. Yakupov went 1OA in 2012.
2. Erik Johnson went 1OA in 2006.
3. Rick DiPietro went 1OA in 2000.
4. Patrik Stefan went 1OA in 1999.
5. Chris Phillips went 1OA in 1996.
6. Brian Bedard went 1OA in 1995.
7. Alexandre Daigle went 1OA in 1993.
8. Doug Wickenheiser went 1OA in 1980.
HM: RNH went 1OA in 2011; Ed Jovonovski went 1OA in 1994.
By your logic, all 1st OA talents right? Now we're done.
Lol, you just aren’t getting it. Yes, as prospects, they were 1st overall talents. You’re looking at those guys with the benefit of hindsight. You really don’t understand how flawed the logic is there? Look at them as prospects. Prospects like those would go high, if not number one in nearly every draft, except maybe Phillips and Stefan, which makes sense because those are probably the two weakest drafts of all time. Players can bust or disappoint due any number of factors - you can’t just look back with hindsight and say they were never 1st overall talents
Yakupov: ~50 g, 100+ point pace, blazing speed, slick hands, ridiculous shot, insane motor and relentless in puck pursuit. He was the consensus number one prospect. A player like that is going top 5 in ANY year, if not number one.
Erik Johnson: 6’6”, 220 lb smooth skating two-way beast, above 1.0p/gp in the USNTDP, mean, nasty, and physical. A player like that is going number one in plenty of other years. He was really no different than a guy like Owen Power. An injury in his draft year muddied the waters a bit, but STL took the bet anyway and I don’t blame them. It didn’t work out as well as they hoped, but injuries played a huge part in that. Most teams take that bet; dude was a unicorn with everything you could want in a prospect.
Rick DiPietro: there was a trend around that time of goalies being drafted high. With the benefit of hindsight, teams are now hesitant to do that because it most often didn’t work out. He was also wrecked by injuries and never hit his full potential. This one’s kind of an N/A. Different era.
Bryan Berard: a 1.29 p/gp two-way defenseman, won rookie of the year, was OHL first all star team, and led his team to an OHL championship, putting up 24 points in 21 playoff games. A player like that is going number one in most years. A devastating eye injury derailed and shortened his NHL career.
Alexander Daigle: I don’t even need to go into this one too much. He was a generational prospect on par with a guy like Bedard. A prospect like this is going 1st overall in all but a handful of years out of the last 30+ years since.
Doug Wickenheiser: 170 points, 89 goals in 71 WHL games lmao. Dude was a phenom, and one of the best prospects ever seen up to that point. But you with your magical hindsight expertise would’ve known not to take him and all these other guys, right? “Not a 1st overall talent”
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Montréal future top six looks good slaf, Suzuki, caufield and now demidov and Hage I imagine they look for a high end center prospect next year to as dach has health concerns and Hage has 2c upside he could be a great 3c on a winning team. The dcore looks good as well reinbacher Hutson, and Guhle maybe another high end guy on the back as well Montréal will be good again
montreal
Go Habs Go
I do remember them as prospects. Well, except Wickenheiser. And you're just using stats to justify the selection placement. The stats don't tell you how they were perceived at the time. None of Stefan, Phillips, Berard,or DiPietro were thought of as first overall talents.Lol, you just aren’t getting it. Yes, as prospects, they were 1st overall talents. You’re looking at those guys with the benefit of hindsight. You really don’t understand how flawed the logic is there? Look at them as prospects. Prospects like those would go high, if not number one in nearly every draft, except maybe Phillips and Stefan, which makes sense because those are probably the two weakest drafts of all time. Players can bust or disappoint due any number of factors - you can’t just look back with hindsight and say they were never 1st overall talents
Yakupov: ~50 g, 100+ point pace, blazing speed, slick hands, ridiculous shot, insane motor and relentless in puck pursuit. He was the consensus number one prospect. A player like that is going top 5 in ANY year, if not number one.
Erik Johnson: 6’6”, 220 lb smooth skating two-way beast, above 1.0p/gp in the USNTDP, mean, nasty, and physical. A player like that is going number one in plenty of other years. He was really no different than a guy like Owen Power. An injury in his draft year muddied the waters a bit, but STL took the bet anyway and I don’t blame them. It didn’t work out as well as they hoped, but injuries played a huge part in that. Most teams take that bet; dude was a unicorn with everything you could want in a prospect.
Rick DiPietro: there was a trend around that time of goalies being drafted high. With the benefit of hindsight, teams are now hesitant to do that because it most often didn’t work out. He was also wrecked by injuries and never hit his full potential. This one’s kind of an N/A. Different era.
Bryan Berard: a 1.29 p/gp two-way defenseman, won rookie of the year, was OHL first all star team, and led his team to an OHL championship, putting up 24 points in 21 playoff games. A player like that is going number one in most years. A devastating eye injury derailed and shortened his NHL career.
Alexander Daigle: I don’t even need to go into this one too much. He was a generational prospect on par with a guy like Bedard. A prospect like this is going 1st overall in all but a handful of years out of the last 30+ years since.
Doug Wickenheiser: 170 points, 89 goals in 71 WHL games lmao. Dude was a phenom, and one of the best prospects ever seen up to that point. But you with your magical hindsight expertise would’ve known not to take him and all these other guys, right? “Not a 1st overall talent”
Erik Johnson: came on in his draft year. Certainly thought of by most as being worthy of the pick, but it wasn't at all unanimous. Some thought that the 1st OA should have been Toews, and in hindsight they were right. If he went first, you'd be saying he was the right choice.
Dipietro : He was viewed as FAR inferior to Dany Heatley and Marion Gaborik. Blame it on dipshit Milbury if you want, but that proves my point. He may have been the only person who had him pegged first, and that was all he needed. Being selected first does not guarantee being that level talent or considered as being so.
Patrik Stefan: Was an absolute shit draft year. Some teams didn't have him in their top 5. The only sure bets were the Sedins, but if you couldn't get them both, no reason to draft either; they made it VERY clear they would only play on the same team. Some thought it should have been Pavel Brendl. Also my point: he was selected not because he was thought of as that good, just that due to circumstances he was what one team thought was the best of the available options.
Chris Phillips: Same as above. No consensus on the BPA, he went first because someone had to. Certainly not thought of as 1st OA quality.
Brian Berard: Seen as having the most value. But ultimately not that much more. He wouldn't sign in Ottawa so they trade him, Beaupre and Straka to get the #2 selection Wade Redden and Damian Rhodes. They saw Rhodes as an improvement in net, but sent along a guy was a first round pick 3 years earlier and had 30 goals and 64 points as a 21-22 year old. There was mention at the time that Ottawa was considering taking Redden first anyway. This was also considered at the time a weak draft.
You're quite right that Daigle and Nail were viewed as top options even though they busted. However: 1) the Taylor Hall draft was a coin flip between he and Seguin; 2) Slafkofsky was thought by some to be a reach and Wright certainly had an argument to be first; 3) Hamrlik was NOT the consensus first pick. I recall Yashin being the one more teams would have selected first.
The point is that any one of the aforementioned could have had another picked ahead of them, and depending on who was drafting, that's what would have happened. That's why you can be seen as having first overall talent or be first overall worthy and not be selected first overall. Or why you could be drafted 1st and not be seen as being worthy. To bring it back to the original point, does Demidov have 1st OA talent or seen as being worthy? Yes. In a number of years he would have been, and had he played in the CHL, USHL or NCAA this year, he very well might have been. The same was true about Michkov last year. There have been 61 1st overall picks since they began the amateur/entry level draft since 1963. There were far more than 61 considered to be worthy of being selected 1st.
Yeah, no shit. Like it or not, stats are a huge part of how we evaluate prospects - always have been, always will be. I’d like to see you try to make your argument about Demidov without talking about his stats. That’s pretty much the only thing you have to go on there - the stats are very impressive, but not enough to be taken higher than 5th. There are other concerns, and they don’t have to do with being Russian. You’ll have a hard time finding too much talk of that publicly though because scouts don’t like to say anything negative publicly, especially once the draft is done. Private discussions are another matter. Hence, the 5th overall.
If that’s the case, this must be the greatest draft of all time, oh right, except for last year’s draft because yet another one of your “1st overall talents” went SEVENTH in that one.
You might have a hope of an argument if Demidov or Michkov went 2nd overall, maybe even 3rd; then you could at least plausibly chalk it up to draft floor/team need dynamics like you did for the prospects above. But they didn’t. Multiple teams passed on both of them, meaning those teams didn’t view them as even being worthy of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and in the case of Michkov, 5th and 6th picks.
There’s just no way to rationally argue that they are seen that way (outside of fanboys on HF) when they were picked so far from #1. You can’t claim it was the Russian factor either because Russians are getting drafted as much as ever, and in the case of Michkov, he wasn’t even the first Russian taken.
The simple answer is that you and fans like you are just overvaluing them, like fans often do. Could they turn out to be the best players ever? Sure, anything is possible, but that isn’t what the discussion is about.
Baseless speculation that you have no way of knowing.
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Michkov was pretty highly regarded among the media (top 2 from Wheeler and Mckenzie, top 3 from Pronman). As for Demidov, not gonna get into a "1st OA" calibre debate but Chicago did aggressively try to get him from Columbus, offering up their 2025 unprotected 1st.
Guess
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Nah, I doubt they screwed up in their minds, Bobrov has deep ties in Russia with SKA so if he didn't pick him it was for a good reason (doesn't mean it will work out in the end but no way he was uninformed).
Guess
Registered User
Says you, who has no idea what goes on in Russia versus Bobrov, whos dad is responsible for the young players at SKA. Pretty sure we know who's got the inside sources.
In other words, they were highly regarded and widely seen as worthy top ~5 picks. No argument there.
- Jan 18, 2022
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I couldn't have been less interested in Buium and that is despite being the PPG-slut I am who over-emphasizes production.
At 5OA for the Habs: Buium is a LD (strike 1) relatively lacking in manoeuvrability (speed, agility) and size for a top10 drafted d-man (strike 2) whose production was inflated from playing in Denver (strike 3). Had all the makings of a bad fit at 5OA. There's a reason four of five dmen drafted ahead of Buium were 6'2 and over... and CGY's 6'0 RD Parekh seems like a certifiable genius and had unreal production and didn't come with the American/NCAA factor so makes sense why he went ahead of Buium too.
I'm sure another team might love him, but we didn't need to draft this LD at 5 when we had a glaring hole at Playmaking/Dangling F.
Demidov fell to 5th, the same as Makar, who went 4th, and Pettersson, who went 5th in 2017, which is the same dumb concern of their size and level of competition, simple as that. History keeps repeating itself because anyone who's not blind clearly could see these players had the talent and the hockey IQ to become next-level superstars in the league but we know GMs are so risk-averse, that they'd rather pick some good low-risk medium-reward players like Nico Hischier, Owen Power, Levshunov, and Nolan Patrick who will help them keep their jobs over the home runs picks. This argument that there are more than 4 players in this draft class better than Demidov when no one outside of Celebrini, touches his stats, offensive ceiling, hands, creativity with the puck, vision, hockey IQ, and transition game is laughable.
Michkov falling to 7th is a whole different story from Demidov such as attitude problems, a complete lack of interest on the defensive end, his lengthy contract to the KHL, and rumored off-ice issues tied to the guy that I won't get into in this thread because it's not the place for that.
NatusVincere
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This whole Bobrov talk is getting really funny. Some Russian no name who drafted Andersson or Kravtsov in the Top 10, is now the expert for Russian Hockey… That’s laughable. And this "deep ties in Russia with SKA" means zero to nothing. The same SKA who had with Michkov, Demidov, Buchelnikov half of Russias future Top 6 in their organization and didn't get it done to give at least one of them some meaningful minutes. The same org who traded for Popugayev or Rendulic when they played for Sotchi but couldn’t offer Michkov or Buchelnikov a roster spot.
Khus, Buch, Michkov are already gone. Demidov will leave after next season, as will Nikishin. What will left over will be an org with all the opportunities in the World (outside of the NHL) who will have almost no talent at all. But people keep referring to Bobrov or SKA as if they have some meaningful track record with scouting and developing prospects. They don't.
deytookerjaabs
Johnny Paycheck's Tank Advisor
Oh give it a rest.
Fans & some scouts like to see prospects that murder their peers in their draft year.
NHL teams create a damn rube goldberg evaluation rubik's cube.
How much more does he have to grow? How well can he fill in his frame? How can we develop him to be elite? How did he score on his psychological evaluation? Can he go fastest in a straight line? Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.
Look at the 2019 draft.
You got Hughes in his tier.
Then you got Boldy
Then Cozens/Zegras/Caufield
Under them... Byram traded away, Dach traded away, Turcotte lucky if he gets out of the AHL, Kakko & Seider may turn out to be depth guys. That's picks 2-6.
But Demidov fell because NHL GM's & scouts are so smart!!
Give me a break, Demi & Buium killed it in their draft year. Will they turn out? Who knows, but them falling doesn't mean they did because NHL evaluation teams are OMG Nostradamus. Meanwhile, Hawks tried hard to grab Demidov at 4 and the same team who nailed on Boldy traded up for Buium when he fell.
Fans & some scouts like to see prospects that murder their peers in their draft year.
NHL teams create a damn rube goldberg evaluation rubik's cube.
How much more does he have to grow? How well can he fill in his frame? How can we develop him to be elite? How did he score on his psychological evaluation? Can he go fastest in a straight line? Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.
Look at the 2019 draft.
You got Hughes in his tier.
Then you got Boldy
Then Cozens/Zegras/Caufield
Under them... Byram traded away, Dach traded away, Turcotte lucky if he gets out of the AHL, Kakko & Seider may turn out to be depth guys. That's picks 2-6.
But Demidov fell because NHL GM's & scouts are so smart!!
Give me a break, Demi & Buium killed it in their draft year. Will they turn out? Who knows, but them falling doesn't mean they did because NHL evaluation teams are OMG Nostradamus. Meanwhile, Hawks tried hard to grab Demidov at 4 and the same team who nailed on Boldy traded up for Buium when he fell.
The two people you quoted are Russian posters.
By now everybody should know SKA is run by a bunch of jokers. Everything is politicized. The coach/GM is a jerk who has very little experience in high level hockey.
Why do you think Demidov spent the entire season in the MHL?
I believe Bobrov would be taken more seriously if he had connections to any other KHL team than SKA.
