F Eduard Sale (2023, 20th, SEA)

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I think we can close it slowly, your arguments slipping into a position that you are refuting something that was not mentioned. Jiříček is the most prominent Czech defender in at least 10-15 years, maybe he will be in the top 10, no one here is arguing that Svozil should have been selected at the same level. You claimed that he played badly at WJCH, while moving in among the adepts of the first round. These are the facts.
Svozil poskočil v odhadech draftu do prvního kola. Co další Češi? | Hokej.cz - web českého hokeje
And then everyone tells their story. As I write, that's all for me

If you found him good and at the level of a selectable defender in the 1st round, it is your right.

Personally I found him disappointing and with a choice at the end of the first round, Columbus preferred to take Ceulemans. Then Montreal took Mailloux (okay he's right-handed but still). Then Allan and many others.

The subject is Sale. I'm just telling you that if I think for one moment that he cannot win in Czechia 1 and that he is obliged to leave like Svozil in a Canadian junior league, that means that he is not an A prospect.

A prospect A like Jiricek doesn't have this kind of problem and I don't think Sale absolutely has to leave Czechia to play in CHL. If Kulich did it, Sale must be able to do it.

Currently, European A prospects no longer go to North America at 17, that's a fact. CHL is made for B or C prospects.

Kemell, Miroshnichenko, Nemec, Jiricek, Lambert, Slafkovsky, Bystedt, Kasper, Perevalov, Kulich, Odelius, Bichsel, Salomonsson, Havelid, Forsmark - no one.

CHL is an obligation for players like Sapovaliv, Hujer because they are not good enough to play in Czechia 1.

 

[Goodman68]

If you found him good and at the level of a selectable defender in the 1st round, it is your right.

Personally I found him disappointing and with a choice at the end of the first round, Columbus preferred to take Ceulemans. Then Montreal took Mailloux (okay he's right-handed but still). Then Allan and many others.

The subject is Sale. I'm just telling you that if I think for one moment that he cannot win in Czechia 1 and that he is obliged to leave like Svozil in a Canadian junior league, that means that he is not an A prospect.

A prospect A like Jiricek doesn't have this kind of problem and I don't think Sale absolutely has to leave Czechia to play in CHL. If Kulich did it, Sale must be able to do it.

European A prospects no longer go to North America at 17, that's a fact. CHL is made for B or C prospects.

So once again, that link talks about what the scouts of NHL Central Scouting thought, you're reintroducing the facts because they don't suit you. And I have no more mood or appetite for this. Hi

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

So once again, that link talks about what the scouts of NHL Central Scouting thought, you're reintroducing the facts because they don't suit you. And I have no more mood or appetite for this. Hi

So your opinion is built on an article written by a Czech journalist and a list from Pronman.

You can also look at this list. It's not Pronman, it's me. NHL Draft 2021 My Board | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League (mandatory.com)

I had Svozil 31st in January 2021 and 30th at the end of the season. He was 19th at the start.

Personally, he dropped in my esteem long before January and obviously the NHL scouts didn't have him in the 1st round either. He came out 69th and if ever a redraft were to be done today, he would never be considered in the 1st round. So once again, take a look at the official draft list rather than focusing on a post that has 1 year to freeze your point of view.

I hope Svozil grows up to be a strong NHL defender. I am one of the biggest supporters of the Czech and Slovak renewal.

But I would rather be skeptical than delude myself.

Regarding Sale, on the other hand, I am very optimistic.

 

[seadawg]

So, how about that Sale kid, eh?

 

[Eye of Ra]

No problem. The Czech league is not strong enough to hamper any selectable prospect in the 1st round

which european leagues would you say are?

 

[Goodman68]

So your opinion is built on an article written by a Czech journalist and a list from Pronman.

You can also look at this list. It's not Pronman, it's me. NHL Draft 2021 My Board | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League (mandatory.com)

I had Svozil 31st in January 2021 and 30th at the end of the season. He was 19th at the start.

Personally, he dropped in my esteem long before January and obviously the NHL scouts didn't have him in the 1st round either. He came out 69th and if ever a redraft were to be done today, he would never be considered in the 1st round. So once again, take a look at the official draft list rather than focusing on a post that has 1 year to freeze your point of view.

I hope Svozil grows up to be a strong NHL defender. I am one of the biggest supporters of the Czech and Slovak renewal.

But I would rather be skeptical than delude myself.

Regarding Sale, on the other hand, I am very optimistic.

True, I am based on the evaluation of journalists, scouts, former hockey players, fans and also myself.
You're the only person I know of now who claims to have played badly at the championship. Some might call it virtual reality.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

True, I am based on the evaluation of journalists, scouts, former hockey players, fans and also myself.
You're the only person I know of now who claims to have played badly at the championship. Some might call it virtual reality.

I know others who do podcasts that weren't impressed either. Either way, you can't lie about one fact : 69th. If he had really shone during the U20 tournament at 18, he would indeed have been selected in the first round.

The point is, even I who found him disappointing compared to early season expectations, had him too high compared to the NHL system.

 

[czechcanadian]

They love him so much that no team selected him in the first two rounds. Jiricek and he do not have the same level at all.

You can dream of seeing every Czech drafted prospect a talented player. You'll be disappointed.

The fact that to date the level of Czech hockey has never been so low. Especially among the defenders.

I was one of the most enthusiastic about talking about a Czech revival with Jiricek and Hamara. I thought about Svozil a few years ago but I was disappointed last year and this year I'm starting to doubt him.

What time frame are we talking about here? Czech hockey today is significantly better than it was between 2006 and 2012. Those were the darkest years. There’s still a huge amount of improvement to be had but if you’re saying it’s at its lowest now, you’re very wrong

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

What time frame are we talking about here? Czech hockey today is significantly better than it was between 2006 and 2012. Those were the darkest years. There’s still a huge amount of improvement to be had but if you’re saying it’s at its lowest now, you’re very wrong

Between 2006 and 2012, the Czech Republic still benefited from its golden generation. During those years, the Czech Republic was still able to win medals.

In 2012, Czechia was even better than Finland.

Currently, the Czech Republic is at its lowest total of NHL players since the turn of the century. The decline is expected to continue until 2025.

Yes, the level of young Czech players was very low at the end of the 2000s. But there has been no improvement since. Only 1 Czech player selected in Round 1 and 2 in the last three years.

The national team no longer performs in any international tournament except the 99' generation.

I haven't forgotten the stinging defeats at the last World Junior Tournament. It was very pathetic and even the victory over Russia was unconvincing.

Fortunately, an improvement is looming in the draft from 2022.

 

[czechcanadian]

Between 2006 and 2012, the Czech Republic still benefited from its golden generation. During those years, the Czech Republic was still able to win medals.

In 2012, Czechia was even better than Finland.

Currently, the Czech Republic is at its lowest total of NHL players since the turn of the century. The decline is expected to continue until 2025.

Yes, the level of young Czech players was very low at the end of the 2000s. But there has been no improvement since. Only 1 Czech player selected in Round 1 and 2 in the last three years.

The national team no longer performs in any international tournament except the 99' generation.

I haven't forgotten the stinging defeats at the last World Junior Tournament. It was very pathetic and even the victory over Russia was unconvincing.

Fortunately, an improvement is looming in the draft from 2022.

Are you talking seniors? I’m talking juniors. Juniors were brutal from 06 to 11/12

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Are you talking seniors? I’m talking juniors. Juniors were brutal from 06 to 11/12

It is the Seniors who count. The Juniors are the hockey of tomorrow so you are talking about current Czech hockey since the juniors of 2010 are the current seniors.

Anyway, it doesn't change anything about me.

Here is the ranking of the Czech Republic in the junior tournament:

2006: 6
2007: 5
2008: 5
2009: 6
2010: 7
2011: 7
2012: 5
2013: 5
2014: 6
2015: 6
2016: 5
2017: 6
2018: 4
2019: 7
2020: 7
2021: 7

Clearly no evolution. The situation in recent years is clearly no better than it was 10 years before among juniors.

 

[Rusty7550]

I think you guys should talk about Czech prospects and their development here:
Czech prospects update thread
This thread is about Eduard Šalé

 

[czechcanadian]

It is the Seniors who count. The Juniors are the hockey of tomorrow so you are talking about current Czech hockey since the juniors of 2010 are the current seniors.

Anyway, it doesn't change anything about me.

Here is the ranking of the Czech Republic in the junior tournament:

2006: 6
2007: 5
2008: 5
2009: 6
2010: 7
2011: 7
2012: 5
2013: 5
2014: 6
2015: 6
2016: 5
2017: 6
2018: 4
2019: 7
2020: 7
2021: 7

Clearly no evolution. The situation in recent years is clearly no better than it was 10 years before among juniors.

You clearly didn’t watch Czechs back then.
When you go from guys like Antonin Honejsek, Tomas Kubalik, Vlada Ruzicka being your best players and having losses like 10-1 to Sweden, to what we have now,(recently Necas, Zadina, Chytil, Svozil, Jiricek, Kaut etc. ) that’s a significant improvement. It’s been very slow, but it’s been better.
Maybe not as much in results but we’ve mostly been screwed by poor coaching. Also, other countries have taken bigger leaps like Finland for example. In the dark years we were still able to play with them. But now? If we had teams today like we did back then, we would have been relegated. Germans, Slovaks, and Swiss would have all beaten us.

Oh yeah.. Eduard Sale… great prospect

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

You clearly didn’t watch Czechs back then.
When you go from guys like Antonin Honejsek, Tomas Kubalik, Vlada Ruzicka being your best players and having losses like 10-1 to Sweden, to what we have now,(recently Necas, Zadina, Chytil, Svozil, Jiricek, Kaut etc. ) that’s a significant improvement. It’s been very slow, but it’s been better.
Maybe not as much in results but we’ve mostly been screwed by poor coaching. Also, other countries have taken bigger leaps like Finland for example. In the dark years we were still able to play with them. But now? If we had teams today like we did back then, we would have been relegated. Germans, Slovaks, and Swiss would have all beaten us.

Oh yeah.. Eduard Sale… great prospect

Always annoying to have to talk to someone who calls you ignorant and gets into an ego war.

Last year Czechia also lost 1-11 to Russia in U18 and suffered stinging defeats in U20.

I have just clearly shown you that the results among the juniors are not better today.

With the exception of Hronek, all the best Czech defenders are of this generation (Gudas, Rutta, Simek, Kempny, Sustr). There was also Voracek, Palat ... Yes this generation was very weak but the level of the generations born 2000/2001/2002 seems extremely low.

In your list, you can hardly name more than 6 players not all convincing. Svozil is a 3rd round which will still play in the junior league next year. Kaut is an AHL player now, Zadina is way below expectations, Chytil is an average NHL player. Jiricek is not even selected yet.

If I have to speak of a failed generation, I will extend this observation from the 1987 generation to the 2002 generation.

Again, I don't really see what you want to come up with except contradict me at all costs.

I'm telling you that Czech hockey has never been as weak as it is today. It includes the generation you're talking about. All the players active on the senior circuit.

But we will have to wait a while to see the level rise again because I do not really see which 19-20-21 players could replace the 30-year-old players in the next few years.

The 2003/2004 generation will perhaps be at the origin of a new relaunch. Same things for Slovakia.

 

[Goodman68]

Always annoying to have to talk to someone who calls you ignorant and gets into an ego war.

Last year Czechia also lost 1-11 to Russia in U18 and suffered stinging defeats in U20.

I have just clearly shown you that the results among the juniors are not better today.

With the exception of Hronek, all the best Czech defenders are of this generation (Gudas, Rutta, Simek, Kempny, Sustr). There was also Voracek, Palat ... Yes this generation was very weak but the level of the generations born 2000/2001/2002 seems extremely low.

In your list, you can hardly name more than 6 players not all convincing. Svozil is a 3rd round which will still play in the junior league next year. Kaut is an AHL player now, Zadina is way below expectations, Chytil is an average NHL player. Jiricek is not even selected yet.

If I have to speak of a failed generation, I will extend this observation from the 1987 generation to the 2002 generation.

Again, I don't really see what you want to come up with except contradict me at all costs.

I'm telling you that Czech hockey has never been as weak as it is today. It includes the generation you're talking about. All the players active on the senior circuit.

But we will have to wait a while to see the level rise again because I do not really see which 19-20-21 players could replace the 30-year-old players in the next few years.

The 2003/2004 generation will perhaps be at the origin of a new relaunch. Same things for Slovakia.

Yes, the U18 suffered a severe defeat, yet the performance was far from bad, and there were circumstances that made it happen. We played 2 good first matches, Hamara was injured, Jiříček, who was injured in the match before, did not play with the Russians anymore. We have not been able to make up for these losses, we do not have such a wide choice. Furthermore, Russia punished every mistake, as did the Slovaks in the HGC final. At the same time, the result did not correspond at all to the game, the Russians had just trained Slovaks in changing their chances.
Everyone who has seen the youth generation around 2010 knows that this was the real bottom of Czech youth hockey. If someone claims otherwise, they either do not remember or do not understand hockey. Just look at the number of drafted players then and now. Czech hockey is still going through a great crisis, yet the above is true, it was even worse, unfortunately.
And to those players who got or didn't get a place in our league. I have no idea what country you are from, but you are not from the Czech Republic, that is obvious. Nevertheless, you feel that you understand everything and know the Czech specifics. That if someone has adequate performance, they have to be given space, you probably deduced from the fact that elsewhere it works that way. I assure you that such a Kulich would not get such a space if it was not coached by the "right" coach and if Karlovy Vary was not such a modest club.
I would sum it up like this, you have no idea how Czech hockey works, you look at it from the outside. And you think it works the way you want it to. But that's a mistake, even if you don't admit it, of course.

 

[Czechboy]

I hate it when I miss a good Czech hockey fight!

Regardng Sale - I hope they get him to a different league.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Yes, the U18 suffered a severe defeat, yet the performance was far from bad, and there were circumstances that made it happen. We played 2 good first matches, Hamara was injured, Jiříček, who was injured in the match before, did not play with the Russians anymore. We have not been able to make up for these losses, we do not have such a wide choice. Furthermore, Russia punished every mistake, as did the Slovaks in the HGC final. At the same time, the result did not correspond at all to the game, the Russians had just trained Slovaks in changing their chances.
Everyone who has seen the youth generation around 2010 knows that this was the real bottom of Czech youth hockey. If someone claims otherwise, they either do not remember or do not understand hockey. Just look at the number of drafted players then and now. Czech hockey is still going through a great crisis, yet the above is true, it was even worse, unfortunately.
And to those players who got or didn't get a place in our league. I have no idea what country you are from, but you are not from the Czech Republic, that is obvious. Nevertheless, you feel that you understand everything and know the Czech specifics. That if someone has adequate performance, they have to be given space, you probably deduced from the fact that elsewhere it works that way. I assure you that such a Kulich would not get such a space if it was not coached by the "right" coach and if Karlovy Vary was not such a modest club.
I would sum it up like this, you have no idea how Czech hockey works, you look at it from the outside. And you think it works the way you want it to. But that's a mistake, even if you don't admit it, of course.

The next game Czechia took 10 against Canada. It's wasn't an accident. Large defeats have been recurrent in recent years. So don't tell me that it's less worse than in 2010-2011.

I know this generation was weak but it didn't get much better afterwards. It's true that very few players have been drafted but Simek, Sustr, Kempny, Rutta, Rittich, Francouz, Nosek are part of this generation and have played in NHL without having been drafted.

As already said, the group of players born between 2000 and 2002 is very weak. There will probably be fewer players of this generation in NHL than the 1990-92 generation. So, there were many more years with so little talent afterwards with so many bad performances in WJC.

Not being Czech allows me to be more lucid. Some here find that the Czechs overestimate all of their young players.

Your young players were bad. To be able to win at 17 in a senior league, you need talent. As already said, many Czechs left for CHL, this only further highlighted the weakness of Czech hockey. Lots of guys on the site, Czechia is just an average nation very close to Switzerland, Germany, and Slovakia.

I think the 2022 draft will be the starting point of a new era with Jiricek, Kulich and Hamara for the end of this decade.

But yes, Czech hockey has never been as weak as it is today. You don't have to be Czech to see that.

 

[Czechboy]

Czech hockey has never been as weak as it is today. You don't have to be Czech to see that.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree. Feel like we're splitting hairs on this one.

If this is the worst ever than what was 2010? Is the difference one or two players?

I think it's been shitty for a long time and I'm not seeing an end anytime soon.

Since I track the NHL guys a bit on here... our numbers look somewhat promising to be regarding NHLers.

Most our old guys have retired or returned home. Our NHL base is quite young.

I think we might have a bronze generation with Necas,Zadina, Chytil, Hajek and Kaut. However, they are not progressing like I thought they would.

The D is awful but we have a few guys that might make some waves.. Kral, Jiricek, Has, Svozil, Krutil, Hajek, Zboril still are young and may all have NHL stories to tell.

We currently have several goalies at NHL level (barely) and several prospects that may make the show one day...

NHL today - Vanecek, Vladar, Vejmelka, Mrazek (in about 90 mintues!), Rittich is finally playing and Francouz is coming back soon (I think). Then we have guys like Dostal, Skarek, Parik, Dobes all a few years away (maybe).

Forward wise guys like Jenik, Lauko, Kaut all still may have a story to tell.

I also think Czech hockey players take a few years longer for whatever reason.

So is it worse now than a decade go? Maybe.. but not much worse or much better. Just equally kind of 'stuck'.lol

However, if a few of our D can get to a Hronek level (not saying he is an All star) and one or 2 of our goalies catch fire and we might be okay.

Of course, they could all flame out quickly and be in Extraliga as well. It's a lot of moving parts and a lot of 'hope'. It's definitely not ideal. Watching Kaut currently bomb, Francouz not play a game on a 2 year contract, Mrazek often hurt, Vrana out, Rittich go from All star to journeyman inside of 2 seasons, Chytil not take off, Necas not take off as much I as I hoped, Zadina seems stalled, Svozil plummet to third, Teply and whatever the hell happened to him. It's definitely frustrating.

Even second tier guys like Spacek returning. Chlapik going back. D. Kase gone too. Musil not panning out at all. Masin the same.

No first rounders in 3 years. But we might have one (maybe 2) this year.

Hope dies last! Like I say... I don't disagree or agree. I feel like we were 6th best a decade ago and we are 6th best now. Need to pull a Finland and move up!

 

[Goodman68]

The next game Czechia took 10 against Canada. It's wasn't an accident. Large defeats have been recurrent in recent years. So don't tell me that it's less worse than in 2010-2011.

I know this generation was weak but it didn't get much better afterwards. It's true that very few players have been drafted but Simek, Sustr, Kempny, Rutta, Rittich, Francouz, Nosek are part of this generation and have played in NHL without having been drafted.

As already said, the group of players born between 2000 and 2002 is very weak. There will probably be fewer players of this generation in NHL than the 1990-92 generation. So, there were many more years with so little talent afterwards with so many bad performances in WJC.

Not being Czech allows me to be more lucid. Some here find that the Czechs overestimate all of their young players.

Your young players were bad. To be able to win at 17 in a senior league, you need talent. As already said, many Czechs left for CHL, this only further highlighted the weakness of Czech hockey. Lots of guys on the site, Czechia is just an average nation very close to Switzerland, Germany, and Slovakia.

I think the 2022 draft will be the starting point of a new era with Jiricek, Kulich and Hamara for the end of this decade.

But yes, Czech hockey has never been as weak as it is today. You don't have to be Czech to see that.

Yes, I wrote two good matches, but even with Canada it didn't look as bad as it used to be, unfortunately a similar crash is normal for us, the same thing happened to Nečas et al. at the championship where they were in the semifinals. Pastrňák turned out similarly, if I'm not mistaken, and in fact all those who are in the NHL today.. And yes, I agree, 2000-2002 are weak years, but stronger than the period around 2010 ( I repeat, the difference in the draft players is obvious and even in the game it was worse then). Yes, today we will list the individuals who eventually developed into the NHL, the same can happen to the young generation. This is quite typical for Czechs, they ripen later.
Around that year, Czech hockey still benefited from "golden generation" players. These are two different issues, the youth and the results of the A team.
Yeah and Edo go ..

 

[kudla]

Always annoying to have to talk to someone who calls you ignorant and gets into an ego war.
The 2003/2004 generation will perhaps be at the origin of a new relaunch. Same things for Slovakia.

Take away Jiricek, Svozil, Hamara and the czech 02, 03 and 04 birth years are nothing but terrible. No need to lie to ourselves, the shiny times will begin with 05s.
Eduard go!!!!

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Yes, I wrote two good matches, but even with Canada it didn't look as bad as it used to be, unfortunately a similar crash is normal for us, the same thing happened to Nečas et al. at the championship where they were in the semifinals. Pastrňák turned out similarly, if I'm not mistaken, and in fact all those who are in the NHL today.. And yes, I agree, 2000-2002 are weak years, but stronger than the period around 2010 ( I repeat, the difference in the draft players is obvious and even in the game it was worse then). Yes, today we will list the individuals who eventually developed into the NHL, the same can happen to the young generation. This is quite typical for Czechs, they ripen later.
Around that year, Czech hockey still benefited from "golden generation" players. These are two different issues, the youth and the results of the A team.
Yeah and Edo go ..

Check out the results in 2010 and 2011. Czechia also had some good games during those years.

I gave you 7 players of this generation who played in NHL without being drafted. I believe that the number of players playing in NHL is more important than the number of drafted players.

Having 27 drafted players like in 2002 is great. But if there are only 3 perform in NHL that's an useless statistic.

 

[Goodman68]

Take away Jiricek, Svozil, Hamara and the czech 02, 03 and 04 birth years are nothing but terrible. No need to lie to ourselves, the shiny times will begin with 05s.
Eduard go!!!!

Yes, that's what this is about! Eduard, come on

 

[Eye of Ra]

dirtyfighter makes it sound like Czechia is Estonia.

Czechia is number 6 in the world . maybe even nr 5.

with the hockeyculture they have, its just matter of time before they are one of the best again.

 

[czechcanadian]

Always annoying to have to talk to someone who calls you ignorant and gets into an ego war.

Last year Czechia also lost 1-11 to Russia in U18 and suffered stinging defeats in U20.

I have just clearly shown you that the results among the juniors are not better today.

With the exception of Hronek, all the best Czech defenders are of this generation (Gudas, Rutta, Simek, Kempny, Sustr). There was also Voracek, Palat ... Yes this generation was very weak but the level of the generations born 2000/2001/2002 seems extremely low.

In your list, you can hardly name more than 6 players not all convincing. Svozil is a 3rd round which will still play in the junior league next year. Kaut is an AHL player now, Zadina is way below expectations, Chytil is an average NHL player. Jiricek is not even selected yet.

If I have to speak of a failed generation, I will extend this observation from the 1987 generation to the 2002 generation.

Again, I don't really see what you want to come up with except contradict me at all costs.

I'm telling you that Czech hockey has never been as weak as it is today. It includes the generation you're talking about. All the players active on the senior circuit.

But we will have to wait a while to see the level rise again because I do not really see which 19-20-21 players could replace the 30-year-old players in the next few years.

The 2003/2004 generation will perhaps be at the origin of a new relaunch. Same things for Slovakia.

No need to get offended. I appreciate your passion and you’re entitled to your opinion. And I respect it.
I am sharing mine based on what I have witnessed over the last 15 years or so.
You do make some ok points but I do still disagree with you. Nothing good came from years 06 - 12 in world juniors and translation to NHL outside of Frolik, Voracek, and Neuvirth. Maybe Gudas.
More players have come in the 6 years following ie, Pastrnak, Vrana, Vanecek, O.Kase. (All just 2014 draft).
As for the next 3 years (2018-present), it’s just too early to tell.
But I do agree that 2000-2002 born group is weak.
There’s always going to be down years. Maybe some players will surprise.
Looking better from here on out though!!

 

[dryz]

1+1 yesterday against Russia for U18.