News Article: Expansion

[TonySoprano11]

Detroit fought long and hard to get back to the East, I don't think they will be willing to move back West so easily.

They should just make it fair and say screw geography for conferences. Two conferences, three or four divisions each - with east central and west divisions, or north south east and west. Like MLB and NFL does.

 

[TonySoprano11]

Here is an example

Conference #1

North
Monteal
Toronto 2
Buffalo
Bruins

East
NYR
NJD
Washington
Carolina

Central
Columbus
Dallas
Nashville
St Louis

West
Edmonton
Seattle
SJ
Anaheim

Conference #2

North
Ottawa
Toronto
Quebec
Detroit

East
NYI
Phil
Pit
Tampa

Central
Chicago
Minnesota
Winnipeg
Colorado

West
Calgary
Vancouver
LA
LV

 

[Bob1321]

Heh.

Fuhr has uncovered one of my sources.

I was actually the best man at his son's wedding.

If he's reporting it, you can take it to the bank, even if the NHL is denying it.

Howard Bloom have source???

 

[Do Make Say Think]

4 means the imbalance between west and east would remain no?

I think 2 is more reasonnable

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

4 means the imbalance between west and east would remain no?

I think 2 is more reasonnable

Could do three in one conference, and one in the other.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Considering the report has Toronto and Quebec City it seems unlikely that they go 3 in the west and one in the east

I guess three conferences is possible but that just sounds silly

 

[Benjamin]

Considering the report has Toronto and Quebec City it seems unlikely that they go 3 in the west and one in the east

I guess three conferences is possible but that just sounds silly

Columbus back to the West?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

That would also be silly

 

[Quo]

Yeah, both Detroit and Columbus fought hard to get in the east. Probably one of those "cold dead hands" things, now that they finally got it.

 

[bert]

If you are a fan of the NHL you should be hoping for more American expansion. There's a reason why the league is the strongest it's ever been financially. I'll give you a hint it has nothing to do with Canada.

Couldn't be more wrong. What makes the NHL so unique from other sports leagues in North America is Canada and all the added markets.

I would rather see them expand to the west/Toronto and relocate one team to Quebec.

I dont understand why Portland isn't part of the discussion, has very friendly hockey demographics and the Winterhawks are one of the top teams in CHL attendance. Not to mention how close it is to Seattle and Vancouver. It would stimulate a great rivalry.

Toronto is the largest untapped hockey market in North America, I am glad they are finally actually getting serious about a second team.

Relocate Florida to Quebec City, expand to Toronto/Ontario, Seattle, Portland and Vegas.

Pacific - Vancouver, Portland, Seattle, San Jose, Anaheim, L.A, Vegas, Phoenix

Central
Edmonton, Calgary, Minnesota, Winnipeg, Chicago, St Louis, Colorado, Nashville and Dallas

Atlantic
Toronto, Quebec, Montreal, Buffalo, Boston, Ottawa, Detroit, Ontario/Toronto, Tampa

Metro
Philly, NYI, NYR, New Jersey, Columbus, Carolina, Pittsburgh, Washington

Two even conferences.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Expansion in Canada makes no sense at all

If the Nordiques come back it'll be due to relocation, not expansion

 

[BankStreetParade]

That's a tired argument. The league isn't watered down. More countries are pumping out more players than ever before. Before the 90s there were hardly any Europeans in the league. There's more talent than ever, but coaching and training have levelled the playing field. The scrubs are much better than they used to, and the goalies are just in another dimension. I mean that literally, they are huge.

That's not a tired argument at all. How many teams have more than 2 stars? Some teams have 1 star player (the Senators, for instance). And I'm talking about true star players, not just guys who had a decent season one time... Almost half the league has 2 or fewer stars. Add 4 franchises to the equation and do you seriously think the talent levels will increase?

How is it watered down? The Sens have NHL calibre players in the AHL...

Its the exact opposite.

And, according to the fans on this forum, AHL calibre players in the NHL (Greening, Neil, Condra, Phillips).

 

[bert]

That's not a tired argument at all. How many teams have more than 2 stars? Some teams have 1 star player (the Senators, for instance). And I'm talking about true star players, not just guys who had a decent season one time... Almost half the league has 2 or fewer stars. Add 4 franchises to the equation and do you seriously think the talent levels will increase?

And, according to the fans on this forum, AHL calibre players in the NHL (Greening, Neil, Condra, Phillips).

The players are simply way better right now, hockey has evolved more than any other major sport in the last 20 years. This is on top of it being a globalized game. Players are found all over the world, look at Kopitar for example. Ismellofhockey is 100 percent correct, especially about the training coaching and just the average skill of a player. There is less time and space than ever, the players are just more skilled. Look at the road hockey goalies of the 80's the goalies are tremendous now, they are covering more net with their eyes closed than the top guys from the 70's.

Equipment is better now too, the players have lighter and more mobile gear and the pucks explode off sticks now too.

As long as the league keeps stressing skill and keeps calling the obstruction the league will be fine.

All the players you spoke about are replaceable within the organization by better options btw.

 

[Mr Invidious]

Seattle and Las Vegas, and even Kansas City or any other American city have a much better chance of getting a team than Toronto getting another one.

I'm sure the Leafs and the Sabres would LOVE that.

 

[Micklebot]

That's not a tired argument at all. How many teams have more than 2 stars? Some teams have 1 star player (the Senators, for instance). And I'm talking about true star players, not just guys who had a decent season one time... Almost half the league has 2 or fewer stars. Add 4 franchises to the equation and do you seriously think the talent levels will increase?



And, according to the fans on this forum, AHL calibre players in the NHL (Greening, Neil, Condra, Phillips).

It's a case of moving goalposts. The talent level will certainly be watered down compared to one year before a 4 team expansion, but not so much compared to 25 yrs ago. The point is the talent pool has grown to the point that it can accommodate more teams.

 

[GimmeMyJetpack]

Couldn't be more wrong. What makes the NHL so unique from other sports leagues in North America is Canada and all the added markets.

I would rather see them expand to the west/Toronto and relocate one team to Quebec.

I dont understand why Portland isn't part of the discussion, has very friendly hockey demographics and the Winterhawks are one of the top teams in CHL attendance. Not to mention how close it is to Seattle and Vancouver. It would stimulate a great rivalry.

Toronto is the largest untapped hockey market in North America, I am glad they are finally actually getting serious about a second team.

Relocate Florida to Quebec City, expand to Toronto/Ontario, Seattle, Portland and Vegas.

Pacific - Vancouver, Portland, Seattle, San Jose, Anaheim, L.A, Vegas, Phoenix

Central
Edmonton, Calgary, Minnesota, Winnipeg, Chicago, St Louis, Colorado, Nashville and Dallas

Atlantic
Toronto, Quebec, Montreal, Buffalo, Boston, Ottawa, Detroit, Ontario/Toronto, Tampa

Metro
Philly, NYI, NYR, New Jersey, Columbus, Carolina, Pittsburgh, Washington

Two even conferences.

Additional teams in canada will never increase tv revenue, especially not one in Toronto. The team would be successful and would probably turn a profit easily which is fine but it's peanuts compared to TV deals. The whole idea of American expansion is to get more lucrative contracts. The more viewers they can get in non hockey markets the more lucrative the deal. Healthy expansion has to occur in the USA, because Canada is already saturated. The whole country watches hockey it won't matter that there are more teams. Is relocation a better idea? absolutely.

I'm no expert so i could be wrong with my understanding of how the league finances work.

 

[bert]

Additional teams in canada will never increase tv revenue, especially not one in Toronto. The team would be successful and would probably turn a profit easily which is fine but it's peanuts compared to TV deals. The whole idea of American expansion is to get more lucrative contracts. The more viewers they can get in non hockey markets the more lucrative the deal. Healthy expansion has to occur in the USA, because Canada is already saturated. The whole country watches hockey it won't matter that there are more teams. Is relocation a better idea? absolutely.

I'm no expert so i could be wrong with my understanding of how the league finances work.

I disagree about Toronto, the leafs games are just too expensive and corporately controlled. By allowing fans to go to more live games in the GTA that has tremendous market expansion potential.

There is 5 million people in the greater GTA they will sell out every game. Sell outs are healthy for the league any way you swing it. It also might make the leafs organization more accountable which could potentially re engage certain fans that are tired of the losing or have lost touch with the team because they have been so bad for so long.

 

[Quo]

Seattle really seems like a must have for the NHL. That entire PNW corridor is barren of hockey, a massive gap in exposure. Lots of history there too.

 

[operasen]

I see it with 4 Conferences set up for ease of travel as much as possible.

West
Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Seattle (exPhoenix), San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Las Vegas

Central
Winnipeg, Minnesota, Colorado, St Louis, Columbus, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto ML

East
Dallas, Tampa, Nashville, Carolina, Washington, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New Jersey


North
Quebec (exFlorida), Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto (new), Boston, Buffalo, New York R, New York I

 

[SilverSeven]

Id honestly love NOTHING more than for a new Toronto team to win the cup in year 1. Could there be a bigger insult to Leaf fans?

I bet the Leafs fan base would take a HUUUUUUUUGE hit.

 

[Caeldan]

I disagree about Toronto, the leafs games are just too expensive and corporately controlled. By allowing fans to go to more live games in the GTA that has tremendous market expansion potential.

There is 5 million people in the greater GTA they will sell out every game. Sell outs are healthy for the league any way you swing it. It also might make the leafs organization more accountable which could potentially re engage certain fans that are tired of the losing or have lost touch with the team because they have been so bad for so long.

I still think that the suggested 'Toronto' location of Markham would basically sink the team as being anything more than another Islanders market (without the history or the 80s dynasty).

I mean, it's an inaccessible side of Toronto to anyone but those actually in the GTA - and Toronto is pretty much known not to be a hockey market, but rather a Leafs market.
So who are they actually going to market to? The people who live in cottage country through the winter?

I can't see you getting anyone outside of Toronto willingly driving up the DVP to see a game through the week, and the 407 is too expensive if you don't have a transponder.

 

[bert]

I still think that the suggested 'Toronto' location of Markham would basically sink the team as being anything more than another Islanders market (without the history or the 80s dynasty).

I mean, it's an inaccessible side of Toronto to anyone but those actually in the GTA - and Toronto is pretty much known not to be a hockey market, but rather a Leafs market.
So who are they actually going to market to? The people who live in cottage country through the winter?

I can't see you getting anyone outside of Toronto willingly driving up the DVP to see a game through the week, and the 407 is too expensive if you don't have a transponder.

You might be right, but at the same time this is Toronto not New York and this is hockey. They will probably be able to spend to the cap and players might actually want to 'come home' and not have the pressure of playing for the leafs. Id imagine it will be a much better atmosphere for the new team as it will be far less cooperate. More youth will likely be able to attend as tickets wont be as expensive.

 

[Quo]

That this whole Vegas thing is "a done deal" with no ownership in place is deucedly odd. How is that even possible?

Crapping on the Leafs market share also, how much is that gonna cost in compensation? Seems unlikely.

 

[GimmeMyJetpack]

I disagree about Toronto, the leafs games are just too expensive and corporately controlled. By allowing fans to go to more live games in the GTA that has tremendous market expansion potential.

There is 5 million people in the greater GTA they will sell out every game. Sell outs are healthy for the league any way you swing it. It also might make the leafs organization more accountable which could potentially re engage certain fans that are tired of the losing or have lost touch with the team because they have been so bad for so long.

I think the TV contract is probably the wrong approach. After reviewing the numbers in depth it does seem like teams make significantly more money from tickets sales/merchandise/etc as opposed to tv contracts (at least successful teams). Here's my analysis on why Canada is not great and the USA is better for expansion.
Toronto makes by far the most money in the league at around 140 million a year. NYI is at 61 and is the lowest. Ottawa and Winnipeg are at 80 million LA and SJ combined make more than Edm/Cal. So the biggest gap is 80 million meaning if you relocated a struggling american team to Canada and they did as well as Toronto you would make 80 million more. The thing is though the team would most likely draw similar numbers to Ottawa/Winnipeg. Both these teams still sellout all their games (pretty much) and make significantly less due to merchandising and brand value, etc. So now we are looking at only a 20 million dollar difference between the relocated team and the new Toronto team. We could be optimistic and say maybe new Toronto team acts like Vancouver who make 100million so the gap is 40 million. Now let's relocate to say a good American hockey market. Say Seattle. We use Minnesota type numbers at 80 million and we are making a 20 million dollar difference. So if Toronto2 turns into a real success it would draw in 20 million more a year than Seattle. Fine. Let's look at TV contracts in the US. MLB 13 Billion over 8 years. NBA is 7.2 Billion over 8 years but that was 6 years ago. NFL is 27 billion over 8 years. Nhl is 2 billion over 10 years.
So clearly the NHL is the lowest of the big 4. In Canada it's evidently the highest. There is almost no competition. More relevant teams in the USA mean more TV $$$$ and that alone could make it more successful than a new Toronto team.


It might not be clearly written but hopefully my point came across.

 

[Caeldan]

You might be right, but at the same time this is Toronto not New York and this is hockey. They will probably be able to spend to the cap and players might actually want to 'come home' and not have the pressure of playing for the leafs. Id imagine it will be a much better atmosphere for the new team as it will be far less cooperate. More youth will likely be able to attend as tickets wont be as expensive.

Like I said, Toronto is not a hockey town... it's a Leafs town.
And I'll admit I've lost track as to who the potential ownership group might be but I'd wager that their first goal would be to get as much corporate sponsorship from IBM, AMD, and various other tech companies.... along with Johnson&Johnson, AllState and whoever else is HQ'd there. That's actually about the only demographic I can see them going after - because for some reason Markham has a ton of Canadian HQ offices for companies. So really it'd be just as corporate as a Leafs game, maybe only slightly less expensive since they're trying to lure away corporate sponsorships (so #2 in average ticket prices, likely still higher than Montreal's 260 or so, but less than Toronto's 370)

And the population demographics for Markham really doesn't lend itself to a traditional Canadian hockey town either.