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Exercising Patience with youth

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leafstilldeath*

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Mods feel free to merge this post with another thread, I couldn't find a relevant thread where I could post this.

Only starting this thread because I read alot of posters on this forum posting for youth to be traded (read: Kadri, Gardiner) while keeping scrubs (read: Bozak, Phaneuf, Clarkson etc...)

Below is an analogy why patience with youth is necessary for success.

This is a video where Roy preaches patience (from the main board). I like the parallels he draws from history of this game.

[NHL]609726[/NHL][/QUOTE]


Here is the list of teams that have been successful in the last 5 to 10 years and the GMs who I think IMO have exercised patience with youth with those teams:

Penguins: Shero (2006 to present)
Bruins: Chiarelli (2006 to present)
Red Wings: Holland (1997 to present)
Blackhawks: Bowman (2009 to present)
Kings: Lombardi (2006 to present)

Here is the leaf's GM history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_Maple_Leafs_general_managers

Look at that list and the work done by those GMs. Especially the modern era GMs. JFJ absolutely killing us and Burke trying to fast track rebuild failing the organization and again setting us back. Nonis the present GM has continued with trying to win "now" and practicing hypocrisy while preaching patience (same can be said of Carlyle for his coaching tenure here).

I personally do not think Nonis is the guy but have faith in Shanahan. However, I did like something that Nonis mentioned begining of the season and then at the trade deadline: Patience However, giving out contracts to Clarkson and Phaneuf; and throwing away 2nd round picks does not signal patience. Is he the right guy for the job? IMO Nope! I am glad Shanahan would have Nonis on a short leash (at least I hope he does).


Patience with youth is important if one is thinking of building a successful franchise where success is defied as "long-term sustained success".

Players like Kadri, Gardiner, Reilly, Kessel, JVR, Bernier are the building blocks. Any of these 5 getting traded for an old has-been player will be a mistake and step in the wrong direction.

We are not in a position of contending and henceforth everybody on the Leaf's NHL roster should be in play for trades except the 6 players mentioned above.

Time to be patient and not ask for everyone's head for immediate short-term gain. Its about long term sustained success and championship(s). Lets exercise patience.
 
If you want someone to be patient (and this is to be heard by all of leaf nation.) Then you should NOT ask for Nonis's head. This is the one thing Nonis is. He is known to not trade away his younger players to be good now.


So if you want someone who is going to let the young guys develop then he is most likely your GM.
 
I wouldn't trade youth for older guys but I have no complaints about trading youth for youth.

Youth for older guys may make sense if the team is pushing for a Cup but that ain't us for awhile yet.
 
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I don't understand how I read daily that the Leafs should trade Kessel to Floria for Gudbrason or to move up to get Ekblad, to Edmonton for Bennett....

The Leafs aren't rebuilding, they didn't rebuild when they said they were going to rebuild. It's a young team, we're going to add a great prospect this summer (which honestly I prefer to a 1st round exit).

Nonis really made one bad move in Clarkson, who at the end of the day should bounce back and be a 20/20 guy next year while adding toughness. Not thrilled about his contract but not going to panic until I see him for another season. Just draft Ritchie and you get your cap busting top six winger with size that you wanted out of Clarkson.

Gleason was cleaning up a Burke/Wilson mess. Let Bolland walk and continue building.
 
leafstilldeath said:
Mods feel free to merge this post with another thread, I couldn't find a relevant thread where I could post this.

Only starting this thread because I read alot of posters on this forum posting for youth to be traded (read: Kadri, Gardiner) while keeping scrubs (read: Bozak, Phaneuf, Clarkson etc...)

Below is an analogy why patience with youth is necessary for success.

This is a video where Roy preaches patience (from the main board). I like the parallels he draws from history of this game.

[NHL]609726[/NHL]
Click to expand...


Here is the list of teams that have been successful in the last 5 to 10 years and the GMs who I think IMO have exercised patience with youth with those teams:

Penguins: Shero (2006 to present)
Bruins: Chiarelli (2006 to present)
Red Wings: Holland (1997 to present)
Blackhawks: Bowman (2009 to present)
Kings: Lombardi (2006 to present)

Here is the leaf's GM history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_Maple_Leafs_general_managers

Look at that list and the work done by those GMs. Especially the modern era GMs. JFJ absolutely killing us and Burke trying to fast track rebuild failing the organization and again setting us back. Nonis the present GM has continued with trying to win "now" and practicing hypocrisy while preaching patience (same can be said of Carlyle for his coaching tenure here).

I personally do not think Nonis is the guy but have faith in Shanahan. However, I did like something that Nonis mentioned begining of the season and then at the trade deadline: Patience However, giving out contracts to Clarkson and Phaneuf; and throwing away 2nd round picks does not signal patience. Is he the right guy for the job? IMO Nope! I am glad Shanahan would have Nonis on a short leash (at least I hope he does).


Patience with youth is important if one is thinking of building a successful franchise where success is defied as "long-term sustained success".

Players like Kadri, Gardiner, Reilly, Kessel, JVR, Bernier are the building blocks. Any of these 5 getting traded for an old has-been player will be a mistake and step in the wrong direction.

We are not in a position of contending and henceforth everybody on the Leaf's NHL roster should be in play for trades except the 6 players mentioned above.

Time to be patient and not ask for everyone's head for immediate short-term gain. Its about long term sustained success and championship(s). Lets exercise patience.[/QUOTE]

What is not to like about Roy....what a passionate coach....who is positive and up beat about his team.

I agree that we need to be thinking about the future when looking at all moves...Burke failed to do it and it set us back more than most believe....

So trading picks for players is a piss poor way to lay a foundation for any team....you build with good drafts and trades at the right time.
 
Atomos2 said:
He is until you can find someone better you can trade him for. (And I don't mean a package with players that can only hope to be as good as him. I mean a better player)
Click to expand...

He isn't.

You really don't build around one dimensional wingers. You want to build around centers and defense.

JVR isn't one-dimensional (though he needs to improve defensively) and has a good contract. Rielly and Gardiner are both promising young D-men. Kadri is a promising young center. Bernier is our #1 and he's young. These are the players you want to build around.
 
TheScruffington said:
He isn't.

You really don't build around one dimensional wingers. You want to build around centers and defense.

JVR isn't one-dimensional (though he needs to improve defensively) and has a good contract. Rielly and Gardiner are both promising young D-men. Kadri is a promising young center. Bernier is our #1 and he's young. These are the players you want to build around.
Click to expand...

You build around elite players and put them in an environment in which they can have success. Kessel is an elite player. You don't ship them off for lesser players playing in a more preferred position and build around those lesser players. Great architects of teams will find ways to maximize the value of any team by adding pieces instead of breaking them down and starting from scratch.
 
leafs dont have patience, its all about win now, mortgage as much of the future as we can to save their jobs and then when it doesn't workout its all the same "we are young"

we may be a young team but our core is in their primes.

stop making excuses this team needs a complete overhaul
 
Atomos2 said:
You build around elite players and put them in an environment in which they can have success. Kessel is an elite player. You don't ship them off for lesser players playing in a more preferred position and build around those lesser players. Great architects of teams will find ways to maximize the value of any team by adding pieces instead of breaking them down and starting from scratch.
Click to expand...

let me ask u this:
elite player who scores 36 goals and 50 goals scored on him
or regular player scores 20 goals and 15 are scored on him

which one would u prefer?

kessel is an elite INDIVIDUAL player... man, its amazing how many people are baffled by individual stats rather than team success.

Personally i like a winning team rather than a rocket rouchard winner (o wait kessel isn't that) personally i would rather have a bunch of plugs who win than a star player and loses. i may be in the minority tho.
 
Atomos2 said:
You build around elite players and put them in an environment in which they can have success. Kessel is an elite player. You don't ship them off for lesser players playing in a more preferred position and build around those lesser players. Great architects of teams will find ways to maximize the value of any team by adding pieces instead of breaking them down and starting from scratch.
Click to expand...

No, you build around good centermen and defensemen and then look for wingers to supplement them.

When you do it the opposite way, like Toronto has done, you devote too much cap and too many assets to acquire players at a less important position. Spending assets/money in one position leaves you with fewer resources to spend on another. Spending $8 million on Kessel means less money to spend on every other player on your roster, including center and defense, where we are weakest. No teams will part with their best players in these positions because they recognize how important they are. The only way they would is if they are going to fleece the other team in the trade. Trading Phil for say a top 3 pick in this draft isn't "starting from scratch." Like I said we already have 5 players that ideally we would build around, because they address the important positions and JVR although a winger has a great contract for how he performs.

There are plenty of examples across the league that show how building around wingers, especially one-dimensional wingers, doesn't lead to success. You could certainly make a case about this being the situation with Washington for instance.

The Leafs are just a one man/one line show and that's a problem.
 
diceman934 said:
Here is the list of teams that have been successful in the last 5 to 10 years and the GMs who I think IMO have exercised patience with youth with those teams:

Penguins: Shero (2006 to present)
Bruins: Chiarelli (2006 to present)
Red Wings: Holland (1997 to present)
Blackhawks: Bowman (2009 to present)
Kings: Lombardi (2006 to present)

Here is the leaf's GM history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_Maple_Leafs_general_managers

Look at that list and the work done by those GMs. Especially the modern era GMs. JFJ absolutely killing us and Burke trying to fast track rebuild failing the organization and again setting us back. Nonis the present GM has continued with trying to win "now" and practicing hypocrisy while preaching patience (same can be said of Carlyle for his coaching tenure here).

I personally do not think Nonis is the guy but have faith in Shanahan. However, I did like something that Nonis mentioned begining of the season and then at the trade deadline: Patience However, giving out contracts to Clarkson and Phaneuf; and throwing away 2nd round picks does not signal patience. Is he the right guy for the job? IMO Nope! I am glad Shanahan would have Nonis on a short leash (at least I hope he does).


Patience with youth is important if one is thinking of building a successful franchise where success is defied as "long-term sustained success".

Players like Kadri, Gardiner, Reilly, Kessel, JVR, Bernier are the building blocks. Any of these 5 getting traded for an old has-been player will be a mistake and step in the wrong direction.

We are not in a position of contending and henceforth everybody on the Leaf's NHL roster should be in play for trades except the 6 players mentioned above.

Time to be patient and not ask for everyone's head for immediate short-term gain. Its about long term sustained success and championship(s). Lets exercise patience.
Click to expand...

What is not to like about Roy....what a passionate coach....who is positive and up beat about his team.

I agree that we need to be thinking about the future when looking at all moves...Burke failed to do it and it set us back more than most believe....

So trading picks for players is a piss poor way to lay a foundation for any team....you build with good drafts and trades at the right time.[/QUOTE]
Good stuff.

I think Burke's problem was less of the fast track because he had more good trades (Lupul, Gardiner, JVR, Phaneuf, Blake, Kaberle) in which he found value out of nothing. What Burke's issue was is that he didn't have a real overall vision like you mention with those patient GMs.

Burke preached top six and top pairing talent/skill, 'lunch box' bottom six and bottom four, then go 9-10 deep on the blueline. He didn't really seem to care IMO about finding pieces that compliment each other have an overall identity. It's why Boston and Detroit are so good, they look for and draft players that fit into their team identity. It's why they traded Kessel he didn't fit their team (and Kessel wanted out because he knew it).

What gets lost on this site is that people think they can just tank and find a franchise players with top picks but doing so you're always a the mercy of a crap shoot. My hope is more than patience that management commits to really building a culture.

For instance, look at the players in the top ten, take the guy you think if he develops like you hope can be a part of a winning roster. That's not the same as taking tbpa. Bennett and Ritchie are the only players that fit that bill IMO. So no Elhers please.
 
Confucius said:
I wouldn't trade youth for older guys but I have no complaints about trading youth for youth.

Youth for older guys may make sense if the team is pushing for a Cup but that ain't us for awhile yet.
Click to expand...

Trading youth for OLDER VETS hasn't worked in the past!

Just keep your youth and let them develop. See Alex Steen for the quintessential example!

Making hockey trades, involving youth for youth, is where you can get the most bang for your buck when trading IMHO.
 
TheScruffington said:
He isn't.

You really don't build around one dimensional wingers. You want to build around centers and defense.

JVR isn't one-dimensional (though he needs to improve defensively) and has a good contract. Rielly and Gardiner are both promising young D-men. Kadri is a promising young center. Bernier is our #1 and he's young. These are the players you want to build around.
Click to expand...
I like JVR's contract, potential upside, but gosh he's not a very consistent forward. He does look impressive in the playoffs, though, but improvement in that area is required. I don't think he has the creativity of Kadri to simply ride on skill and it's not like Naz isn't physical.

Trading Kessel for a young, TWD top pairing defenceman is a good idea IMO. Build from the net up, but I can't see Shanny tanking. We're going to see some effective tinkering and compete.
 
pooleboy said:
let me ask u this:
elite player who scores 36 goals and 50 goals scored on him
or regular player scores 20 goals and 15 are scored on him

which one would u prefer?

kessel is an elite INDIVIDUAL player... man, its amazing how many people are baffled by individual stats rather than team success.

Personally i like a winning team rather than a rocket rouchard winner (o wait kessel isn't that) personally i would rather have a bunch of plugs who win than a star player and loses. i may be in the minority tho.
Click to expand...

It's funny that you call Kessel an elite individual player. Like I said before, building around a player means actually building around him. You don't fortify an offensively gifted player by leaving a crappy defence behind him and then blaming the offensive player for not being good defensively and for not picking up the slack from our defence. Instead of complaining about Kessel (because he can't be the elite scoring winger and the shutdown winger that you want him to be) why don't you complain about the underwhelming defence.

But hey, since we're fine with giving the defencemen a free pass, why don't you start blaming Bernier for not getting more wins?
 
TheScruffington said:
No, you build around good centermen and defensemen and then look for wingers to supplement them.

When you do it the opposite way, like Toronto has done, you devote too much cap and too many assets to acquire players at a less important position. Spending assets/money in one position leaves you with fewer resources to spend on another. Spending $8 million on Kessel means less money to spend on every other player on your roster, including center and defense, where we are weakest. No teams will part with their best players in these positions because they recognize how important they are. The only way they would is if they are going to fleece the other team in the trade. Trading Phil for say a top 3 pick in this draft isn't "starting from scratch." Like I said we already have 5 players that ideally we would build around, because they address the important positions and JVR although a winger has a great contract for how he performs.

There are plenty of examples across the league that show how building around wingers, especially one-dimensional wingers, doesn't lead to success. You could certainly make a case about this being the situation with Washington for instance.

The Leafs are just a one man/one line show and that's a problem.
Click to expand...

So because we paid 8 mil to Kessel we are out of money. The problem was paying money to Clarkson. Don't blame Kessel because Nonis was stupid enough to give Clarkson that crappy deal. Kessel makes a lot of money, but not so much that it severely ruins the team. The contract hasn't even started yet ffs.

What you need to do is actually start building around them. Get a better defensive core. Get more balance in the lower lines. Get a coach with a stronger and more stable system. One player does not create a fall of an entire organization. Crappy management that don't take into account team needs are the problem
 
pooleboy said:
let me ask u this:
elite player who scores 36 goals and 50 goals scored on him
or regular player scores 20 goals and 15 are scored on him

which one would u prefer?

kessel is an elite INDIVIDUAL player... man, its amazing how many people are baffled by individual stats rather than team success.

Personally i like a winning team rather than a rocket rouchard winner (o wait kessel isn't that) personally i would rather have a bunch of plugs who win than a star player and loses. i may be in the minority tho.
Click to expand...

I guess you wouldn't want Duchene, Backstrom, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, Skinner, Tavares, Datsyuk, just to name a few players who had a worse GA20 during 5-on-5 than Kessel.

Here's a hint, the team they play for and their linemates kind of matter. Heck, JVR and Bozak were both far worse.

Kessel is 4th in the league for TMGA20 (5-on-5). That's ridiculous.

Kessel also had a GF20 of 1.013 versus his GA20 of 0.894 for 5-on-5. In other words: You're blatantly wrong.
 
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The problem with the Leafs is they are owned by an enterprise and that the seats will be filled no matter what. This is part of the problem on patience.
 
Kadri, Rielly, Gardiner & Bernier are the only ones who may be worth it to be patient with.

The rest of the team are seasoned NHL vets and most are in their primes. We can be patient with them all we want, but what we see is what we get at this point.
 
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