Eastern Conference playoff picture: Leafs HOST Tampa Bay

[ACC1224]

It's your truth. As in it's the way you perceive the team/results/process based on your experiences.

It may not be actuality. Same applies the other way. It is just plain arrogant to assume your viewpoint is an absolute truth while others who view things differently suffer from some sort of delusion

That describes a few here to a T while it seems just one is being called out.

 

[ACC1224]

Possibly, but I believe Dubas has run out of rope. Another early playoff exit and he will be given the axe right alongside Keefe.

I think Dubas is secure, firing Keefe (if it comes to that) will buy him another season at least.

 

[riffle]

It's your truth. As in it's the way you perceive the team/results/process based on your experiences.

It may not be actuality. Same applies the other way. It is just plain arrogant to assume your viewpoint is an absolute truth while others who view things differently suffer from some sort of delusion

You are suffering, badly, from what you're alleging of me. I do not think my viewpoint is absolute truth. Why would you conclude/post that? I'm explaining a little of how I perceive things and commenting on how I perceive some others perceive things.

It is very true that "fans", generally speaking, drink koolaid and don't see clearly. They are "drunk" on their fandom which impairs their ability to see them clearly. Would you argue that isn't true? If I point that out, what is your issue? I've stated that I try very hard to see clearly. I believe that some others not only don't try to see clearly, they try very hard not to. Does that make me better than another fan? No. Different.

If someone is obsessed with a particular player do you think we're more likely to get objective/rational takes from them about that player or might their perception be skewed badly due to their obsession?

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Self-serving dribble? I thought it articulately painted this as it is. You said it yourself...

"People follow the Leafs because they love the team, there's no koolaid; it's called fandom." --
You just perfectly described the koolaid effect.

"Love" blinds. Ever heard that? It does exactly that. There is a difference in many posters here. Some are very prone to lose their bearings because of their love of team. I'm not criticizing someone who does that. Of course, I will take issue with some of the things posted that flows from that. If that is how you fan, that is how you fan. There are other ways to fan, and I choose one of those. Isn't self-serving...it is the truth.

Your framing is interesting. You think I'm calling for Kyle's head? I'm not. You are right, though. There is a stock market effect happening on this board. Emotions are swinging as wildly as stock prices. GDT are the best example of that. All of us are emotional about the Leafs on some level. Some of us have better control than others in certain areas. One person may be super emotional about a particular player but far more rational in other areas. It's fun to see each person's unique attributes. It sometimes syncs with some posters and sometimes doesn't. I never take the insults regarding my takes personal. Don't like when people question me, personally, but that's the price of doing business in an online forum.

I think you are making all kinds of assumptions. I guess it's the Trisollarian brain of yours - pure logic!

As positive as I am about the team, it's not like all of us think this is a sure thing. If I was betting money on who would be the eventual cup winner, I would probably have Toronto below Florida, Colorado, Tampa, St. Louis and Minnesota.

Even with that belief, it's still fun to be excited with fellow fans, to hope for the best, to cheer for the crest. Not all of us approach sports the same way we might approach purchasing a home or deciding on a medical treatment...you don't need to focus all of your energy on the potential flaws or potential outcomes. Life demands that in the real quite enough for my liking.

 

[zeke]

drivel not dribble

 

[Jojalu]

That describes a few here to a T while it seems just one is being called out.

It ia all of us like it or not. None of us can escape our biases no matter how hard we try

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

drivel not dribble

I knew it sounded wrong lol thanks zeke

 

[Jojalu]

You are suffering, badly, from what you're alleging of me. I do not think my viewpoint is absolute truth. Why would you conclude/post that? I'm explaining a little of how I perceive things and commenting on how I perceive some others perceive things.

It is very true that "fans", generally speaking, drink koolaid and don't see clearly. They are "drunk" on their fandom which impairs their ability to see them clearly. Would you argue that isn't true? If I point that out, what is your issue? I've stated that I try very hard to see clearly. I believe that some others not only don't try to see clearly, they try very hard not to. Does that make me better than another fan? No. Different.

If someone is obsessed with a particular player do you think we're more likely to get objective/rational takes from them about that player or might their perception be skewed badly due to their obsession?

I 100% did not mean to single you out. You just had said you speak truth so I used that statement as an example. Of course I do the same thing sometimes. We all do

 

[riffle]

I think you are making all kinds of assumptions. I guess it's the Trisollarian brain of yours - pure logic!

As positive as I am about the team, it's not like all of us think this is a sure thing. If I was betting money on who would be the eventual cup winner, I would probably have Toronto below Florida, Colorado, Tampa, St. Louis and Minnesota.

Even with that belief, it's still fun to be excited with fellow fans, to hope for the best, to cheer for the crest. Not all of us approach sports the same way we might approach purchasing a home or deciding on a medical treatment...you don't need to focus all of your energy on the potential flaws or potential outcomes. Life demands that in the real quite enough for my liking.

You don't want me to question how other people fan, but wish to question how I fan? Odd.

This is one of the plagues of our society today. People demanding that others see like they do. I don't demand it and have stated that. You, on the other hand, want me to conform to an ideal you hold. I don't hold your ideals and views on how to follow the Leafs.

I'm glad you're excited and hope for the best and cheer for the crest. I'm with you, there.

You are right about one thing... if you look at life, or your favorite team, as it really is vs. how you can to make it more fun, it won't be as much fun. I choose the road that makes it a lot less fun. That works best for me.

Hope we can stop this kind of talk now. We covered a lot of ground in a short time. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. Don't expect you to bend to my way of thinking and you shouldn't expect it from me.

 

[Brobust]

I don't see a decent Keefe replacement out there.

If they're insistent on moving on from Dubas, they should probably go internally with Eric Joyce.

 

[maskingagent]

As we know the Leafs always do things the hard way and give their fans a heart attack. I think they will prevail in 7 games after squandering a commanding series lead. I don't see Tampa being able to play physical every shift with only really 2 lines of depth. The Leafs will suck the Lightning in at times, to play speed and skill game and when the track meet begins, no. 34 will make them look bad. The Leafs are way hungrier than Tampa and it will show.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

You don't want me to question how other people fan, but wish to question how I fan? Odd.

This is one of the plagues of our society today. People demanding that others see like they do. I don't demand it and have stated that. You, on the other hand, want me to conform to an ideal you hold. I don't hold your ideals and views on how to follow the Leafs.

I'm glad you're excited and hope for the best and cheer for the crest. I'm with you, there.

You are right about one thing... if you look at life, or your favorite team, as it really is vs. how you can to make it more fun, it won't be as much fun. I choose the road that makes it a lot less fun. That works best for me.

Hope we can stop this kind of talk now. We covered a lot of ground in a short time. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. Don't expect you to bend to my way of thinking and you shouldn't expect it from me.

I am not demanding anything of you - you called out another poster for being to slanted towards seeing the bright side of things, and I am calling you out for doing the same, but on the other end.

Don't play the victim card now. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

For the record, I think you both make good points and I am glad you're both around. Most of us fall in the middle of your two point of views.

We will see what the playoffs bring. This will easily be the biggest test for the entire group, management down to the guy who carries the bags. Huge year, huge opportunity to overcome some past failures.

 

[ACC1224]

It ia all of us like it or not. None of us can escape our biases no matter how hard we try

If only everyone were as self aware.

 

[riffle]

I am not demanding anything of you - you called out another poster for being to slanted towards seeing the bright side of things, and I am calling you out for doing the same, but on the other end.

Don't play the victim card now. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

Oh, man. Yes, it is good for the goose and the gander. You want to say I take a more critical view of things? Guilty as charged. That is exactly how I operate and everything I've tried communicating in this little back and forth.

You want to ding me for being critical because you see me as dinging someone for their rose-colored glasses. If this is all you're trying to do, I'm good with that my friend.

If you're saying that I'm irrationally critical like someone is irrationally positive, I wholly reject that. They are not the same, but can be.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

When I saw Tampa had been racking up some points, I assumed Vasi was playing extremely well again. However, the (traditional) stats say that he's still been quite inconsistent:

Might be a chink in the Tbay armour there, along with their D which has been much more porous this year.

 

[Shooter2x]

I like our chances better against better teams, because Leafs recent record against non playoff teams is not very good.

Leafs always play to the level of their competition and seem to elevate their game when facing better teams.

I think it's because good teams generate offence, which makes them vulnerable to Leafs transition and skill game. The inferior teams (playoffs) resort to snooze fest tactics backed by elite goaltending that we unfortunately fall victim to on the finish.... excluding Nylander (two can play this game you caps post game thread people).

 

[Mess]

If a team with superior talent is not playing overly well in a series, the only factors that would come into play would be organization (coaching) and effort level. Or health.

The fact that the Leafs continue to struggle against non playoff teams in 2022 (no biggie) suggests that they do play lazy at times, especially when they see an inferior looking roster on the white board.

A lot of Leaf fans don't put 2 + 2 together ..

The excuse is we simply got "outgoalied" and too bad so sad we lost, nothing we could do differently..

However when the opposition hold Matthews and Marner in check and goalies post low goals against is because Coaching is a major factor in the outcome of both system, strategy and motivating and preparing your team, and adjusting during a game to address them.

We have discussed systems earlier this year where opposition collapse back in their own zone forming a tight box around their goalie, blocking shots, clearing rebounds and keeping the Leafs on the perimeter. That is a coaching system.. Similarly if a coach sets up a natural zone trap/ left win lock and breaks up rush attacks and neutralizes a teams speed, which Leafs fuels their offense. That contributes to being "outgoalied" and Keefe has to deploy systems that exploit and breakdown that system which dictates game play and flow.

If Matthews and Marner line is not scoring and getting shutdown then break them up and try different combo's and use last change to get them away from their checkers etc. Simply giving them more and more icetime against a successful defense strategy isn't the only coaching option available. If the other team holds AM and MM to 1 goal in a series then that isn't just on them either, as it emphasizes strong coaching by the opposition to achieve that desired outcome.

Fans that think "offense wins championships" see a highly skilled Leafs roster and when facing a "defense wins strategy" its not coaching its simply the other teams goalie beat the Leafs, that seems to be the ONLY reason to explain away the loss.

 

[riffle]

A lot of Leaf fans don't put 2 + 2 together ..

The excuse is we simply got "outgoalied" and too bad so sad we lost, nothing we could do differently..

However when the opposition hold Matthews and Marner in check and goalies post low goals against is because Coaching is a major factor in the outcome of both system, strategy and motivating and preparing your team, and adjusting during a game to address them.

We have discussed systems earlier this year where opposition collapse back in their own zone forming a tight box around their goalie, blocking shots, clearing rebounds and keeping the Leafs on the perimeter. That is a coaching system.. Similarly if a coach sets up a natural zone trap/ left win lock and breaks up rush attacks and neutralizes a teams speed, which Leafs fuels their offense. That contributes to being "outgoalied" and Keefe has to deploy systems that exploit and breakdown that system which dictates game play and flow.

If Matthews and Marner line is not scoring and getting shutdown then break them up and try different combo's and use last change to get them away from their checkers etc. Simply giving them more and more icetime against a successful defense strategy isn't the only coaching option available. If the other team holds AM and MM to 1 goal in a series then that isn't just on them either, as it emphasizes strong coaching by the opposition to achieve that desired outcome.

Fans that think "offense wins championships" see a highly skilled Leafs roster and when facing a "defense wins strategy" its not coaching its simply the other teams goalie beat the Leafs, that seems to be the ONLY reason to explain away the loss.

But, if you just say, "goalied" no other thinking is required. Just simpler and protects from having to entertain uncomfortable thoughts. I appreciate you entertaining them and elucidating.

 

[zeke]

A lot of Leaf fans don't put 2 + 2 together ..

Are those the same fans that projected these Leafs to be in a tough bubble battle with Montreal for the final playoffs slot this year?

 

[Mess]

I think it's because good teams generate offence, which makes them vulnerable to Leafs transition and skill game. The inferior teams resort to snooze fest tactics backed by elite goaltending that we unfortunately fall victim to on the finish.... excluding Nylander (two can play this game you caps post game thread people).

While speaking in generalities you're correct, that a weaker team plays more conservative and then Leafs struggle more, both with intensity of compete level and against teams focused more on slowing them down then scoring themselves and wait for Leafs mistakes to capitalize.

Here is a new flash, good teams also change strategy come playoff time and tighten up and lock down opposition chances.

Andrei Vasilevskiy posted a shutout in everyone of his teams 4 rounds deciding games to advance to the next round or hoist the Cup. After shutting out Florida and Carolina in rounds #1 and #2, Tampa beat NYI 1-0 in round #3 to advance and won the Cup against Montreal winning 1-0. Hard to lose a game even when you have a great offense if you don't give up any goals against and you only need 1 or 2 goals to win yourself.

If our Leafs think they're going to go end to end exchanges chances with TB because they're a highly skilled offense team, they're going to be in for a shock, because even highly skilled teams know when and where to activate offense, with goal prevention at the top of the priority list.

 

[1specter]

When I saw Tampa had been racking up some points, I assumed Vasi was playing extremely well again. However, the (traditional) stats say that he's still been quite inconsistent:

View attachment 535457

Might be a chink in the Tbay armour there, along with their D which has been much more porous this year.

Just an FYI Vasi was pretty garbage to close out the 2021 season but turned it on once playoffs came. IMO he's still the best goalie in the world despite the regular season stats this year.

 

[Sypher04]

It’s equally lazy to act like being goalied isn’t a very real thing that can happen and distinct possibility vs someone like Vasi as it is to try to erroneously apply it to every failure

 

[Brobust]

It’s equally lazy to act like being goalied isn’t a very real thing that can happen and distinct possibility vs someone like Vasi as it is to try to erroneously apply it to every failure

Did they get goalied last season?

 

[kk87]

As awful as it'd look seeing "6 straight first round exits on their resume, it doesn't make sense to me why Keefe or Dubas would be fired if we lose in round one this year.

They've put together the best Leafs team we've ever seen (statistically speaking), and if we lose in a tightly-contested series against the two-time reigning champs, is there anything you can really do about that? It's not their fault we play in the best division of the 21st century.

The Columbus and Montreal exits were embarrassing. Unless we get absolutely decimated by the Lightning, the measuring stick this year is way different.

 

[Shooter2x]

While speaking in generalities you're correct, that a weaker team plays more conservative and then Leafs struggle more, both with intensity of compete level and against teams focused more on slowing them down then scoring themselves and wait for Leafs mistakes to capitalize.

Here is a new flash, good teams also change strategy come playoff time and tighten up and lock down opposition chances.

Andrei Vasilevskiy posted a shutout in everyone of his teams 4 rounds deciding games to advance to the next round or hoist the Cup. After shutting out Florida and Carolina in rounds #1 and #2, Tampa beat NYI 1-0 in round #3 to advance and won the Cup against Montreal winning 1-0. Hard to lose a game even when you have a great offense if you don't give up any goals against and you only need 1 or 2 goals to win yourself.

If our Leafs think they're going to go end to end exchanges chances with TB because they're a highly skilled offense team, they're going to be in for a shock, because even highly skilled teams know when and where to activate offense, with goal prevention at the top of the priority list.

Correct my comment was solely on the goal scoring. I don't see it being an issue against the Atlantic teams we are about to face. Keeping the GA down is the wild card. I don't think Leafs have even 0% plans to go end to end with Tampa. We have a forward group that is sound defensively and a defence group well balanced after the Boosh and Gio additions. Tampa will have to bring conn smythe performances to beat us I imagine. Likewise Leafs will need to do the same to beat them. This year feels very promising even though our recent playoff experiences doesn't give us much optimism and the opponents make every round a ECF. Leafs seem to play better when they're forced to go all out though.