Don't understand European Hockey leagues

[Al Jordan]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I apologize if what I'm about to say has already been answered/discussed, and I apologize if I posted in the wrong section. I just have a few questions:

1) How do farm teams work in European leagues? Like how do teams in the Swedish, Finnish, Swiss, or German leagues call up and send down players?

2) I noticed a lot of players on hockey teams in European leagues tend to be from the city of the team. Why?

3) Do players from lower European leagues every get signed by teams in the highest leagues? For example, do you see a high scoring player in the Oberliga get signed by a team in the DEL? Can players from the lower leagues be traded "up" to the higher leagues?

Thanks!

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[Jumptheshark]

1) European Leagues act in accordance to how European football teams operate. They have a feeder training program.

Adam Larsson

2007-08	Skellefteå AIK J18	J18 Elit	13	5	11	16	8		|
	Skellefteå AIK J18	J18 Allsvenskan	11	0	4	4	22		|
	Skellefteå AIK J20	SuperElit	3	0	5	5	6		|
	Sweden U16 (all)	International-Jr	11	6	8	14	6		|
2008-09	Skellefteå AIK J18	J18 Elit	5	2	3	5	2		|
	Skellefteå AIK J18	J18 Allsvenskan	2	1	5	6	4		|	Playoffs	8	0	6	6	6
	Skellefteå AIK J20	SuperElit	26	2	7	9	28		|	Playoffs	5	0	4	4	2
	Skellefteå AIK	SHL	1	0	0	0	0	0	|
	Sweden U17 (all)	International-Jr	3	0	0	0	0		|
	Sweden U18	WJC-18	6	0	2	2	4	4	|
	Sweden U18 (all)	International-Jr	11	0	4	4	6		|
2009-10	Skellefteå AIK J20	SuperElit	1	1	0	1	2		|
	Skellefteå AIK	SHL	49	4	13	17	18	-7	|	Playoffs	11	0	1	1	31	3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As back with the original 6--teams have territorial rights and they get first grab at players from that area

As teen a 13 year old he was brought into the Skelleftea AIK organization and they developed him, He moved up from the under 16 team to the u18 to the j20 and then to the main team before being drafted by the devils. Players developed by a team, unless drafted by the nhl will stay with their club teams till 20/21 where if they do not make the main team will be allowed to go elsewhere--either via a tranfer, trade or agreement

The top leagues, such as the SHL, KHL and others each team does have minor league team or secondary team where they can draw players from.


Like with all pro leagues--players come and go and change teams

I will use other player, Joel Persson as an example

the Oilers signed him this off season and loaned him back to Vaxjo (great arena with great food)--he started in the lowest league or one of the lowest leagues and it took him 8 years to get to the SHL and then an NHL contract--so yes --lower league players do move up and down

 

[jonu]

1) In Finland at least usually the farm teams of the Liiga teams are the closest Mestis teams (2nd highest tier in the league), there are some rules for moving players between the leagues but there is no waivers or anything like NHL / AHL.
2) European leagues don't really have a draft system, so homegrown players consist most of the roster, unless you're a really big team with a big budget that can poach the best players from the smaller teams.
3) This is common from Mestis to Liiga, most of the Mestis players don't have a Liiga contract so if they put up the points in Mestis they'll probably get a good look in Liiga the next season. In Finland there's not much trading of players, KHL teams usually buy the players contract from the team and pay a compensation, but otherwise trades are rare.

 

[alko]

In Slovakia there such a f....g system that nobody actually understand. But general the team owns the player rights until he is bought from some other team (traded). There is a second option. Player itself pays to his parent team, that he could be a free agent. Or does some sponsor for him. Then he is as we know from NHL an UFA.
How much? We dont know exactly, there should be some rating system.

The sick point of this is, that also junior players must pay, if they want to leave. I dont know exactly how is it now, but some years ago, there was a system, that also 13 years old kids must pay, if they wanted to go to another team.

In Czech Leagues it is the same.

If there is someone, that has more detailed infos, please, write here.

 

[Tomas W]

Money rules this.

Clubs with enough money in budget usually have both an own youth club organisation, from which they can send back and forth how they please, and they can also have an agreement with a smaller club, usually a club nearby who play in the tier below on which they LEND out players to, and call up. The lower level "farm" club can very well end up playing against thier motherclub at some point and become a competitor, since all senior clubs can win promotion to the highest tier and vice versa, get demoted to a lower level if you lose a demotion playoff .

 

[Renmar]

In Slovakia there such a f....g system that nobody actually understand. But general the team owns the player rights until he is bought from some other team (traded). There is a second option. Player itself pays to his parent team, that he could be a free agent. Or does some sponsor for him. Then he is as we know from NHL an UFA.
How much? We dont know exactly, there should be some rating system.

The sick point of this is, that also junior players must pay, if they want to leave. I dont know exactly how is it now, but some years ago, there was a system, that also 13 years old kids must pay, if they wanted to go to another team.

In Czech Leagues it is the same.

If there is someone, that has more detailed infos, please, write here.

It should be changed here in Czech republic next season, maybe even canceled, at least I hope.

 

[LiveeviL]

Good posts above. One might add in that as the European leagues (all?) are open to advance into and fall out of. This makes the systems a bit more fluctuating than with a closed league as NHL. If for example a team advances into the highest tier a nearby team in the highest tier or the tier below might suffer from that as the local competition takes its toll (following, audience, marketing, players, etc). This do of course get real effect on the flow of resources through the system.

 

[Speedthrash]

I would say the whole league system in almost all team sports in Europe is totally different from N.A. The clubs have their own youth and juniors team and try to raise their own players (which are often from same area as the club). In N.A. you have college sports, etc. In Europe there is almost no draft, players can be sold (trades are rare). The leagues are open, there is promotion and relegation which in N.A. does not exist. The whole concept and apperception of sport is totally different.

 

[Jussi]

Money rules this.

Clubs with enough money in budget usually have both an own youth club organisation, from which they can send back and forth how they please, and they can also have an agreement with a smaller club, usually a club nearby who play in the tier below on which they LEND out players to, and call up. The lower level "farm" club can very well end up playing against their motherclub at some point and become a competitor, since all senior clubs can win promotion to the highest tier and vice versa, get demoted to a lower level if you lose a demotion playoff .

Meanwhile in Finland... Pretty much the same but only the eldest age group team, A-juniors are usually funded by the motherclub (if they are a Liiga team) meaning players don't have to pay for their equipment, ice time etc. and are usually under a junior contract meaning they get a very small salary. The Junior teams from B- to C-juniors have to pay for their equipment and there are season fees. The clubs from the B-juniors to younger are non-profit organizations and sometimes the the coaches salaries aren paid by the motherclub only to C-juniors.

 

[Saekk]

Good posts above. One might add in that as the European leagues (all?) are open to advance into and fall out of. This makes the systems a bit more fluctuating than with a closed league as NHL. If for example a team advances into the highest tier a nearby team in the highest tier or the tier below might suffer from that as the local competition takes its toll (following, audience, marketing, players, etc). This do of course get real effect on the flow of resources through the system.

Liiga is a closed league at the moment.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

European leagues are much like European football. Lots of teams develop and build prospects from their U-16, U-18, etc. and get fast tracked to the main team.

 

[Atas2000]

European tradition in team sports:

1.League system with advancement/relegation. Top teams from lower tier leagues advance to the next tier.

2.Teams develop their talent themselves mostly feeding from the region they are based in in fully owned system of kids schools/youth teams. No drafting happens. Every team has the players it developed in it's own developing system.

Changes to that system occured over time and now there are a lot of tweaks and specialities depending on the country.

First of all not every city/area has a hockey school at a highest level nearby while talented kids might grow up elsewhere. Maybe in the 50s those kids did not have those opportunities, but nowadays some parents would consider moving for the sake of their kid's future. So the better schools started to accumulate also kids from different areas. To give you some examples out of Russia: Kucherov was born in the Caucasus, but moved to Moscow where he became the hockey talent he is, Svechnikovs are originally from Barnaul in the Altay far south of Novosibirsk, but moved to Kazan to train at the AkBars school, Kravtsov was born in Vladivostok where his dad owns a construction business, but he moved to Chelyabinsk to develop at one of the best schools in Russia. All those kids naturally then move up the system of youth teams to eventually play in the highest tier team in the same system. The majority of the kids in those schools though remain local kids who are born and grow up in the area. So that still results in many teams sporting a lot of players who are originally from the area and grow and develop through all those levels to become part of the big team.

The higher the level of the league gets and starting at junior level there are also trades though. Talented kids who get a contract with the big club while still in juniors also become trade assets and get moved. That's not different from NA then.

In some countries the top leagues have become pure commercial closed enterprises with no more relegation. So you have to look at one country at a time. In Russia the KHL is a closed league, but the teams mostly still have those own junior teams in the MHL(junior league) that are not just affiliated but fully owned by the KHL franchise. On the other hand the VHL(second tier grown ups league) teams are more often just affiliated farm teams just like AHL teams to NHL teams.

The better players from MHL and VHL are basically all under contract with some KHL franchise anyway. So it's not much different from NA. Players get called up and moved by the big team. Younglings can get a sniff of men hockey in the VHL or KHL or sent down to the youth league. Where they actually play strongly depends on the KHL team they are with contractually. Obviously it's easier to get some KHL ice time with a weaker team.

Some players do take more complicated ways for development. As an example Nikita Gusev who is originally a CSKA product out of Moscow, so he would have more trouble getting playing time in the big league(also CSKA was a mess of an org at the time). He was able to negotiate a trade to a weaker KHL team of Yugra where he has won his spurs to get the big contract with the SKA powerhouse. Basically CSKA effed it up in a way. They had a great asset on their hands and had all the control they needed. Now he is the top scorer for their biggest rival.

 

[SoundAndFury]

One might add in that as the European leagues (all?) are open to advance into and fall out of.

Actually, we seem to be moving away from it... KHL, Liiga, EBEL, DEL and a lot of smaller leagues are all closed. Also, in smaller leagues like Norway, it's more likely you will take a place of someone who went bankrupt (like Bayreuth did in DEL2 this year) than winning against higher division team in relegation playoffs. Sweden is pretty much the only one with actually functioning relegation/promotion system. German lower division too, in a way.

 

[Jussi]

Actually, we seem to be moving away from it... KHL, Liiga, EBEL, DEL and a lot of smaller leagues are all closed. Also, in smaller leagues like Norway, it's more likely you will take a place of someone who went bankrupt (like Bayreuth did in DEL2 this year) than winning against higher division team in relegation playoffs. Sweden is pretty much the only one with actually functioning relegation/promotion system. German lower division too, in a way.

In Finland's case pretty much all the biggest teams and arenas are now playing in Liiga, there's only one or two teams in Mestis that may be up to par but their finances are a questionmark for Liiga level. If the teams that were promoted in the last 10ish year were to get relegated, it would be a financial blow that could mean bankruptcy. In Sweden, they could easily make the SHL ~20 team team league because they have more cities with big arenas and viable economies. But that also enables them to have the promotion system in place, relegation series are always tight.

 

[Albatros]

Sweden is pretty much the only one with actually functioning relegation/promotion system. German lower division too, in a way.

Swiss playouts can be pretty intense too, last season it was game seven overtime that secured Rapperswil promotion against Kloten.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Swiss playouts can be pretty intense too, last season it was game seven overtime that secured Rapperswil promotion against Kloten.

True, just completely forgot about those

 

[serp]

Actually, we seem to be moving away from it... KHL, Liiga, EBEL, DEL and a lot of smaller leagues are all closed. Also, in smaller leagues like Norway, it's more likely you will take a place of someone who went bankrupt (like Bayreuth did in DEL2 this year) than winning against higher division team in relegation playoffs. Sweden is pretty much the only one with actually functioning relegation/promotion system. German lower division too, in a way.

I think part of it that smaller clubs often don't have the resources ( and i don't mean just the skill ) to compete in the highest leagues at least not in hockey ( but in some other sports too ) . Not a big enough arena / stadium for example. More so with hockey ( than say soccer/football ) because it is outside of a few countries mostly a niche sport but its not just in hockey.

If Holstein Kiel got promoted to the Bundesliga in german soccer/football last season ( they ended up losing the decider match ) they wouldn't have been able to play in their home stadium because its too small. To play Bundesliga you gotta have a minimum capacity of 25.000 people for your stadium and theirs is only ~10.000.

At least thats how i see it in Germany and the DEL not sure about other countries.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I think part of it that smaller clubs often don't have the resources ( and i don't mean just the skill ) to compete in the highest leagues at least not in hockey ( but in some other sports too ) . Not a big enough arena / stadium for example. More so with hockey ( than say soccer/football ) because it is outside of a few countries mostly a niche sport but its not just in hockey.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Whoever has the resources can play at the highest tier, that's how the promotion/relegation lost its role, most lower tier teams just can't afford to play in big leagues.

 

[Albatros]

If Holstein Kiel got promoted to the Bundesliga in german soccer/football last season ( they ended up losing the decider match ) they wouldn't have been able to play in their home stadium because its too small. To play Bundesliga you gotta have a minimum capacity of 25.000 people for your stadium and theirs is only ~10.000.

This is in part incorrect, the minimum capacity is the same 15.000 for both the first and the second league so the potential promotion in itself did not create the issue but only made an already existing one more severe. They reached an agreement which would have seen Kiel play the first season using temporary stands and then start expansion works the following summer. It has been pretty common for smaller clubs to have makeshift stadiums, for example in Mainz the old stadium was for years like that consisting only of one permanent stand. Much of the capacity can consist of standing areas, in the first league 8.000 and in the second 3.000 must be seated.

 

[serp]

This is in part incorrect, the minimum capacity is the same 15.000 for both the first and the second league so the potential promotion in itself did not create the issue but only made an already existing one more severe. They reached an agreement which would have seen Kiel play the first season using temporary stands and then start expansion works the following summer. It has been pretty common for smaller clubs to have makeshift stadiums, for example in Mainz the old stadium was for years like that consisting only of one permanent stand. Much of the capacity can consist of standing areas, in the first league 8.000 and in the second 3.000 must be seated.

I remembered there was talk about Holstein having to play in Hamburg for its home games. Did remember the number wrong thats correct somehow that it was 25.000 .

Still the point stands that not too many teams can actually afford to play in the highest leagues especially in more niche sports . Football/Soccer in Germany would be an exception from that considering but in other sports like hockey its different.

 

[Albatros]

It took until April before they reached the understanding, but so financially in football it's mostly relegation that clubs have to fear because of much smaller television money and so on. In the case of Holstein they made some 0.8 million in the third league, 6.5 million in the second league, and would have reached very comfortable double digits in the first league.

In hockey the value of the entire TV deal is around four million per season, less than 0.3 million per club. Thus the ability to invest in facilities and alike granted by winning promotion is hardly any better than a regional league club would have in football.

 

[Tomas W]

Yeah the system varies between countries, and over time.

 

[ForumNamePending]

...Sweden is pretty much the only one with actually functioning relegation/promotion system. German lower division too, in a way.

Swiss playouts can be pretty intense too, last season it was game seven overtime that secured Rapperswil promotion against Kloten.

The Czech league has promotion/relegation as well. It is also going to be reintroduced to the top German league within the next year or two.

 

[Albatros]

2020/21 it will make a return in Germany, a part of the reason being that there are big city clubs stuck in DEL2 and the perennial DEL relegation candidates have only very limited growth potential in any scenario.

 

[JHB]

I would say the whole league system in almost all team sports in Europe is totally different from N.A. The clubs have their own youth and juniors team and try to raise their own players (which are often from same area as the club). In N.A. you have college sports, etc. In Europe there is almost no draft, players can be sold (trades are rare). The leagues are open, there is promotion and relegation which in N.A. does not exist. The whole concept and apperception of sport is totally different.

This also causes the teams in Europe to be less "plastic", since you know that most of the players on your team are actually from your city, and not just drafted from who-knows-where. It's a "my city is better than your city" more than cheering for a corporation who just happened to lease an arena in your city.