kb
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Engvall-Kampf-Mikheyev is a line that very few teams can handle. Size, speed, skill, and defensively aware.
Speculation: Does Engvall deserve to be on the Leafs?
- Thread starter CupcakeSprinkles
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zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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I have been pretty open on here how I feel about Pierre. This guy has every raw ability to be a very very effective 3rd line player in the NHL for a long time. With the puck on his stick, specifically in the offensive zone, he has the ability to create separation for himself with his awkward but deceptively fast stride and long reach. He also is not afraid to make plays towards the net, and just doesn't overcomplicate things or make that 1 extra pass. Very simple offensively, which is a good thing. He really has an ability to create high possession shifts down the lineup. Which is just massive.
That's the good with Pierre.
The bad, he still struggles from time to time with his first touch of the puck in his own end. He tends to not anticipate pressure as well as he should, and often times this can lead to stupid and massively untimely turnovers. His lack of anticipation defensively shows in a variety of different ways. He can be late to what should be a 50:50 puck, He could be late to having his stick in the right lane, or it can show with him just skating in circles without a purpose. This is the second straight year where his turnovers out pace his takeaways. Last year was far worse, but this year he has about 2 turnovers for every 1 takeaway. Last year that ratio was close to 4:1. Just not good enough for a player that skates as well and has the wing span that he does IMO. But on the positive side, it has improved this year and I do feel like it has been noticeable from the eye test level as well.
I am critical of Pierre only because I genuinely think he can be a one of the top role playing 3rd liners in the league. He really does have all the tools. He's just got to be more consistent and simplify his game in his own end.
At the end of the day, I really do think he has improved greatly this year. His deficiencies are becoming less of an issue. He is still good for 2-3 head scratching moments a game, but then again that is somewhat to be expected down the lineup I guess. And when you factor in what he can bring offensively, it starts to wash out the bad more and more. I think he has earned his ice time this year for sure and more than deserves to be in the lineup over Ritchie.
That's the good with Pierre.
The bad, he still struggles from time to time with his first touch of the puck in his own end. He tends to not anticipate pressure as well as he should, and often times this can lead to stupid and massively untimely turnovers. His lack of anticipation defensively shows in a variety of different ways. He can be late to what should be a 50:50 puck, He could be late to having his stick in the right lane, or it can show with him just skating in circles without a purpose. This is the second straight year where his turnovers out pace his takeaways. Last year was far worse, but this year he has about 2 turnovers for every 1 takeaway. Last year that ratio was close to 4:1. Just not good enough for a player that skates as well and has the wing span that he does IMO. But on the positive side, it has improved this year and I do feel like it has been noticeable from the eye test level as well.
I am critical of Pierre only because I genuinely think he can be a one of the top role playing 3rd liners in the league. He really does have all the tools. He's just got to be more consistent and simplify his game in his own end.
At the end of the day, I really do think he has improved greatly this year. His deficiencies are becoming less of an issue. He is still good for 2-3 head scratching moments a game, but then again that is somewhat to be expected down the lineup I guess. And when you factor in what he can bring offensively, it starts to wash out the bad more and more. I think he has earned his ice time this year for sure and more than deserves to be in the lineup over Ritchie.
He is great for regular season hockey .. but in playoffs when time and space on puck is greatly reduced then we will see .. i wish he played with a mean attitude as size is perfect for a winger .. but we got lots of forwards who all have same issues with playoff hockey
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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eh - he has the puck so much you expect him to have more turnovers than takeaways. and it also matters where those turnovers happen - if he's turning the puck over deep in the offensive zone off of a sustained forecheck, it's not even a strike against him imo.
MoreMogilny
Cap'n
I like Engvall.
I think he demonstrates time and time again his value to the bottom six when he’s in the lineup.
While he doesn’t use his size the way you’d want a 6’5” player to, he has the reach and strength to win body position, and his speed has burned other teams a number of times.
I think he has just good enough instincts offensively to contribute at an appropriate clip, and he makes our team more dangerous with the way Keefe wants them to play.
His awareness in his own end is lacking somewhat but I’d say he helps our transition game more than he hurts it. Having him and Mikheyev on the same line is something I’d like to see continue. If they can bring the intensity in the playoffs then perhaps we could see more scoring depth than we’ve had. If these guys learn to finish their checks they could be a nightmare to handle.
I think he demonstrates time and time again his value to the bottom six when he’s in the lineup.
While he doesn’t use his size the way you’d want a 6’5” player to, he has the reach and strength to win body position, and his speed has burned other teams a number of times.
I think he has just good enough instincts offensively to contribute at an appropriate clip, and he makes our team more dangerous with the way Keefe wants them to play.
His awareness in his own end is lacking somewhat but I’d say he helps our transition game more than he hurts it. Having him and Mikheyev on the same line is something I’d like to see continue. If they can bring the intensity in the playoffs then perhaps we could see more scoring depth than we’ve had. If these guys learn to finish their checks they could be a nightmare to handle.
For me, Engvall is a PK'ing 4th liner, 9-10 mins/gm on almost any team in the NHL. Is he a bit overpaid for a 4th liner? Probably, by 250k, but it's not detrimental to what he brings. No doubt he's an NHL player, so to answer your question, yes I believe he deserves to be on this team. If he were traded, we have several 4th liners with PK'ing ability to take his place in the minors on better contracts.
Well then how does all of Kampf, Kase, and Micheyev have more takeaways than giveaways then? those are the 3 players Pierre has played the most with, and they possess the puck equally, yet they protect the puck far better.
to your second point, yes absolutely I agree it does matter for sure where these turnovers occur. If Pierre were making these turnovers at the end of a long offensive zone shift I have no issue with that. But the reality of it is, a large majority of his turnovers come in his own end and in neutral ice. Pierre really struggles with that first touch of the puck. Especially on the wall in his own end IMO. He's a bit panicky at times. Almost looks hesitant to make a play on the puck. If there is any defensive pressure he has a tendency to burp it up. To a lesser degree this happens in neutral ice.
Pierre's biggest asset is his skating, size and reach. I think if he demonstrates a bit more patience on the wall in his own end he will be able to use that to his advantage. You often see him receive a puck in neutral ice and circle back if the blue line is not there for the taking. A very Sheldon Keefe, possession based strategy that Pierre actually does very well. Among the best on the team TBH. So we know patience is definitely in his arsenal.
It's when he tries the 1 touch passes, and chips off of the boards where he gets into trouble. Not because those aren't good plays, but because he almost does it half ass. Slapping at a puck instead on using his body to gain an advantage. Or feeling the D-side pressure while on the wall and throwing a weak/blind pass up the middle...etc.
The playoffs are a game of mistakes often. We lost to MTL because we made more critical mistakes than they did. It's really that simple. We need forwards to manage their mistakes down the lineup.
For Pierre he is going to have to find a way to ramp up the intensity in his own end. Because it will be a factor when the dial turns up.
Again, I've been largely happy with his play thus far but he still has some very tangible gaps in his game that he needs to continue to address IMO
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Magic Man
Registered User
To be honest at full health I prefer Ritchie in the lineup over Engvall. The third line is set up great as a checking line. Engvall can fill in on the 3rd line whenever someone goes down and he can give a pretty similar output in that role. For that reason Engvall not being waived was smart because if any of the 3rd line options go down they can put in Engvall and not miss a beat. But, when it comes to the 4th line, the option of a Ritchie - Spezza - Simmonds line that can crash and bang has the makeup to be a much more effective line. Much like how the checking line has a purpose. The 4th line could be a crash and bang line with the potential for some offense.
He still should be the 13th forward at full health. But, he plays a useful role with his versatility and he would have been claimed on waivers if exposed.
He still should be the 13th forward at full health. But, he plays a useful role with his versatility and he would have been claimed on waivers if exposed.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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That 4th line also has the purpose of being the slowest line in hockey, and was far far worse than when Engvall was on that line.
Carltons Cup
Let's Do This..
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I've been harsh on Giraffe man this year, but I do believe he's the perfect 4th liner player for what he brings.
He's also valuable on the PK.
He's also valuable on the PK.
to me these are the types of plays that Engvall makes at least once a game. He displays patience in stopping up at the blue line, but then immediately panics when the pressure that he was expecting to fly by doesn't.
Instead of using his legs, his greatest asset, he decides to throw a pass into no where which causes a turnover where the Sens eventually score.
He makes a confident play to stop up, and then 1 second later looks like the most insecure player on the sheet.
This example is unfortunately not an isolated occurrence with him, this was just the best example that came to my mind this year.
Sure most of the times these types of turnovers are not ending up in the back of the net, but it is a turnover that is completely avoidable. Engvall is almost good for 1 of these type of turnovers a game. And to me, these are the turnovers that set him apart in a negative way in comparison to the other players he has played with this year (Kase, Kampf, and Micheyev).
He really has to keep those wheels turning. That is when he is at his best.
Magic Man
Registered User
Ritchie has scored at a higher PPG pace throughout his career than Engvall. I think they would make up one of the better offensive 4th line combinations in the league while running 2 guys that can hit and fight with anyone in the league on each flank. That line would have an identity. They create energy. Like the Isles last game running over everyone in sight. I wouldn't mind that mixed into the game for a comparable, but better offensive output, even if they give up a couple extra defensively. Instead of a quieter, more vanilla 10 minutes of ice time.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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Ritchie ain't no energy player tho.
As for offense, since Engvall came into the league:
Even Strength Paces:
Ritchie: 11gl/24pt pace
Engvall: 12gl/24pt pace
And Ritchie has had plenty of time on top scoring lines during that time, while Engvall has done that playing mostly on a 4th line.
Basically you're saying that having a fighter is worth making the 4th line a defensive liability, and I just can't agree with that.
Ya Ritchie has not exactly been what we wanted, but I really do believe the best 4th line combo we've seen this year has been Ritchie - Spezza - Simmonds.
I have not looked at the analytics on this, but from an eye test POV, they had a very strong stretch of 10-15 games or so before he COVID pause.
they seemed to generate a healthy amount of chances. They definitely gave up some as well, but for the most part they played very strong and heavy minutes in the offensive zone IMO. We haven't had a 4th line combo that has worked since IMO
I like Engvall. I think he's still a work in progress and already adds value to the Leafs at his price-point.
I think next year Mikheyev will be gone for a better contract elsewhere, and it would be good to hold on to Engvall for the bottom-six.
Engvall could be with the Leafs fairly long-term. At least, I hope so.
I think next year Mikheyev will be gone for a better contract elsewhere, and it would be good to hold on to Engvall for the bottom-six.
Engvall could be with the Leafs fairly long-term. At least, I hope so.
Magic Man
Registered User
Ritchie is the Leafs greatest weapon from a physical perspective. He hits at a higher rate than anyone on the team. He provides plenty of energy. Like Josh Anderson from Montreal or Lawson Crouse from Arizona. He fights and mucks it up on top of that. You mix that with another player of the same mold in Simmonds and you're getting a unique game presence and you're not losing but gaining offense. That is very valuable imo.
You could see the Isles getting under the Leafs skin playing that way and the crowd was getting into it.
Pierre Engvall isn't wart free from a defensive perspective and that line is good enough in comparison to other 4th lines that they don't need him to babysit.
2 Slick
Registered User
I've never been a huge fan of Engvall, but if it's a choice of him or Ritchie in the lineup, I'll choose Engvall any day of the week. He may not be great, but he does have a lot of speed and can fill in on the 3rd and 4th line quite nice.
Warden of the North
Ned Stark's head
Beyond this season. Engvall will be an obvious comparable for Miky and will price him well off our roster.
zeke
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The Podium
Registered User
steam whistle
Registered User
the players should be traded are JT Marner
not these guys.
the players we should chasing for is like Werenski/ JT miller/ Hovart/ Tuch/ Tim Stutzle/Tony DeAngelo/McMichael/ Michael McLeod/Huberdeau/Barkov(probably untouchable)
durable and reasonable price.
not these guys.
the players we should chasing for is like Werenski/ JT miller/ Hovart/ Tuch/ Tim Stutzle/Tony DeAngelo/McMichael/ Michael McLeod/Huberdeau/Barkov(probably untouchable)
durable and reasonable price.
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