Does anyone still think Marner is better than Matthews?

[Once]

Entered this thread to read a possible Marner vs Matthews argument (does not make sense) and...

Exit.

 

[Its not your fault]

Do fans really like Auston Matthews... or do they like the idea of Auston Matthews (ie. an extremely talented player they hope has the passion to lead the team?)

Matthews is supremely talented. I don't get the sense he's here for the long term. Feel like the American protege will want to live in America again.

I also don't get the sense he's an emotional leader in the room.

Sort of like Phil Kessel with more talent.

Do you really like the player we have or do you just like the idea that the player we have could be a super star leader?

If it's the latter... we've got 2-3 years before it's time to move on.

Only Mathews knows! I'm not loosing sleep on something I cannot control. Unless you have been living under a rock this is known and been talked about enough that it seems more like it would fall into the troll category. Imo if he wants to move on hopfully he's man enough to say. I think it's more he knows how good he can be and wants what he's worth. Retirement and big money after 30 is less and less. This would set him up for an 8 year contract that would bring him into his mid 30s. He's playing the system, he's aloud too.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And where was he playing 1 year after the signing the deal?

1 year after signing the deal was October 1st, 2014, and he was still playing in Toronto. The team went into a rebuild and ended up trading him, but why are you now moving the goalposts? You came up with the most obscure possible criteria, and you were still given an example that counters your claim. And not just any example; the most similar example possible. An American star sniper who re-signed with Toronto long-term after his 5 year post-ELC contract.

 

[Dekes For Days]

My question was simply DO fans love the idea of Matthews or actually love Matthews?

Fans love their generational goal scorer who is one of the best players in the game. Your question makes no sense.

From our end, he's expensive.

Matthews provides more value at his cost than the majority of players do at their cost. Star players are undervalued in contracts. He is worth every penny.

And contract ending the same time as Marner's.

This is false.

I just had the gall to ask whether we should consider anything with a fan favourite.

No, you threw around baseless claims and speculation about one of the best players in the game and what he will do a half-decade from now.

 

[Pookie]

1 year after signing the deal was October 1st, 2014, and he was still playing in Toronto. The team went into a rebuild and ended up trading him, but why are you now moving the goalposts? You came up with the most obscure possible criteria, and you were still given an example that counters your claim. And not just any example; the most similar example possible. An American star sniper who re-signed with Toronto long-term after his 5 year post-ELC contract.

You've got 1 example of an American star who signed an UFA contract here?

Just one?

 

[Pookie]

Fans love their generational goal scorer who is one of the best players in the game. Your question makes no sense.

Fans also question his ability to lead. His passion and the give a sh*t meter.

Some also didn't appreciate the offseason charges file against him by the woman whose car he tried to get into.

Matthews provides more value at his cost than the majority of players do at their cost. Star players are undervalued in contracts. He is worth every penny.

This is false.

My bad. Nylander's deal ends in the same year as Matthews. Marner's is the year after.

NMC for Matthews kicks off in 3 years

No, you threw around baseless claims and speculation about one of the best players in the game and what he will do a half-decade from now.

You sure do know political words. Baseless. Biased. Unequivocal. And all the rest.

I can freely speculate that an American might want to play in America.

And I can also freely speculate that my team might need to look into the likelihood of resigning him. If they feel it's risky, I would prefer my team to explore trading options so that the team can maintain it's progress rather than have him walk for nothing.

I prefer my team to have a contingency plan.

As much as it ruffles your (biased) feathers.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You've got 1 example of an American star who signed an UFA contract here?

No, it's just the most similar one, that fits your arbitrary criteria (that eliminated almost all comparables) as perfectly as possible. Why are you suddenly ignoring it?

 

[Pookie]

No, it's just the most similar one, that fits your arbitrary criteria (that eliminated almost all comparables) as perfectly as possible. Why are you suddenly ignoring it?

It's one. I'm not ignoring it... I just can't see it through all of the other American UFAs stars that take a pass on Canada.

Taxes. Family. Weather. Endorsements.

Real things people consider.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Fans also question his ability to lead. His passion and the give a shit meter.

No, a few incorrect fans do, based on nothing but their own personal speculation.

I can freely speculate that an American might want to play in America. And I can also freely speculate that my team might need to look into the likelihood of resigning him. If they feel it's risky, I would prefer my team to explore trading options so that the team can maintain it's progress rather than have him walk for nothing.

He might want to leave, but there are no indications he currently wants to, and it's something that is very rare historically. The team will need to look at possible options, when that time comes, which is not anytime soon.

Talking about plans for this 3-4 years down the road is useless, because literally nobody knows any of the necessary information to evaluate the advantages/disadvantages of possible options that may be available to us. There is no possible way to know now what the best option will be when that time comes.

Right now, we have one of the best players in the world, and most Leaf fans on the Leaf board would like to enjoy it without always dwelling on the next doom and gloom fabrication.

 

[Dekes For Days]

all of the other American UFAs stars that take a pass on Canada.

That's a gross misrepresentation. It's not American star UFAs taking a pass on Canada. It's American star UFAs re-signing with their teams, just like most other stars, which is what Matthews would be doing here.

 

[Pookie]

No, a few incorrect fans do, based on nothing but their own personal speculation.

He might want to leave, but there are no indications he currently wants to, and it's something that is very rare historically. The team will need to look at possible options, when that time comes, which is not anytime soon.

Talking about plans for this 3-4 years down the road is useless, because literally nobody knows any of the necessary information to evaluate the advantages/disadvantages of possible options that may be available to us. There is no possible way to know now what the best option will be when that time comes.

Right now, we have one of the best players in the world, and most Leaf fans on the Leaf board would like to enjoy it without always dwelling on the next doom and gloom fabrication.

So, enjoy it.

Contingency plans absolutely have to be developed. It would be a colossal blunder... of the we think we can make the playoffs so won't tank for McDavid proportion.... to not consider the likelihood of resigning the player and take action accordingly.

The existence of a contingency plan shouldn't cause this much stress.

This whole discussion is insane.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Contingency plans absolutely have to be developed.

Okay, what should the Leafs do in the 2035 offseason? We need a current contingency plan for every single thing that could ever possibly happen at any point in the future, right?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

So, enjoy it.

Contingency plans absolutely have to be developed. It would be a colossal blunder... of the we think we can make the playoffs so won't tank for McDavid proportion.... to not consider the likelihood of resigning the player and take action accordingly.

The existence of a contingency plan shouldn't cause this much stress.

This whole discussion is insane.

yes, and has basically nothing to do with a comparison between Marner and Matthews. Why are you so intent on pushing it?

 

[Pookie]

That's a gross misrepresentation. It's not American star UFAs taking a pass on Canada. It's American star UFAs re-signing with their teams, just like most other stars, which is what Matthews would be doing here.

They choose to stay in America. Those that became UFA... for example, Praise. Suter. They were examples of Americans that went to other American cities.

Remember... the OP was Americans wanting to play in America

Jesus this is painful.

 

[Morbo]

yes, and has basically nothing to do with a comparison between Marner and Matthews. Why are you so intent on pushing it?

If you want Matthews to leave, a comparison thread with another player might be a good place to bring it up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They choose to stay in America.

They overwhelmingly chose to stay with their teams. A few that didn't, went to other teams, that happened to be in the same country that has 24 out of the 31 teams. You have twisted this to suggest something else entirely.

Of the top 100 players in P/GP in the cap era (1+ season), only 14 are American.
Of those 14, 8 have played in Canada in their careers.
Of those 8, 5 have not hit UFA status yet. All 5 re-signed as RFAs with their Canadian teams.

The 3 remaining are Wheeler, Kessel, and Connolly. Both Wheeler and Kessel re-signed with their Canadian teams as UFAs, and Connolly came to a Canadian team as a UFA, from an American team. None have left a Canadian team as a UFA.

 

[Pookie]

yes, and has basically nothing to do with a comparison between Marner and Matthews. Why are you so intent on pushing it?

Principle of debate.

It's an absurd position to take that we cannot contemplate player movement before a contract is up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's an absurd position to take that we cannot contemplate player movement before a contract is up.

Nobody said this. Moving Matthews now or anytime soon would be extremely stupid. He is our best player and one of the best players in the league. Moving Matthews in 3-4 years can't be effectively evaluated at this point in time, because none of the necessary information exists yet.

We can discuss players with term remaining, but you are not actually bringing any discussion or point to the table. You are throwing out baseless, inflammatory speculation about something you know nothing about that isn't relevant for years, if ever. You even admit it's not something we will be doing anytime soon. Of course teams will have appropriate contingency plans in place at an appropriate time. Of course the team is going to inquire about Matthews' likelihood of re-signing and make appropriate decisions when that information is more known.

However, as has been shown to you, star players leaving their drafted team in the cap era is incredibly rare, especially for players of Matthews' caliber, and especially for a competitive team with resources. As has been shown to you, in the most similar comparable to this situation, the American sniper was re-signed to an 8 year contract as a UFA by Toronto after a 5 year post-ELC contract. As has been shown to you, there have been zero Americans in the top 100 in P/GP in the cap era that have left their Canadian teams in UFA, while multiple re-signed and one came from an American team to a Canadian team in UFA. Every indication and statement from Matthews is that he loves it in Toronto, and he wants to be here a long time.

Regardless of what happens in 3-4 years, we have a generational goal scorer and one of the best players in the league for the foreseeable future, and people are rightfully thrilled about that.

 

[Morbo]

If Matthews was a Raptor in this scenario I'd be worried. Not as as Leaf though.

 

[Gabriel426]

Fun fact.

Matthews has a full no movement clause in his final year of his contract here.

Team cannot trade him without his permission.

I cannot think of better leverage for the player in negotiation.

And given that... while the contract expires in 4... if you don’t want to risk him walking for nothing.... you’ve got to kick the tires on a new contract long before that.

So does a lot of players. I really don’t see your point. It is like you are hoping Matthews will leave the Leafs when he hits UFA, just to prove your point.
Like I said, it is still 4 yrs, heck 3 yrs if you count the no trade clause away.
Honestly, when it comes to someone like Matthews, McDavid, Deai, even Marner or Jones or Eichel, unless they sucks and can’t produce, if he is made available today, all 30 teams will call with their offers. And it won’t be here is my crap for them.
Pretty sure you will use the Kessel trade for an example to say the Leafs got fleeced.
Lastly, you still have not answer my question

 

[Gabriel426]

1 year after signing the deal was October 1st, 2014, and he was still playing in Toronto. The team went into a rebuild and ended up trading him, but why are you now moving the goalposts? You came up with the most obscure possible criteria, and you were still given an example that counters your claim. And not just any example; the most similar example possible. An American star sniper who re-signed with Toronto long-term after his 5 year post-ELC contract.

Well said

 

[Gabriel426]

If Matthews was a Raptor in this scenario I'd be worried. Not as as Leaf though.

Two completely different Sports.
Basketball players movement are very common. It seems like every year, there will be at least one top UFA moving to a different team.

 

[Gabriel426]

Principle of debate.

It's an absurd position to take that we cannot contemplate player movement before a contract is up.

Ofcourse we can but it is a few years away. Why even bring up the topic now? There are other players like Reilly who is literally 2 yrs away from UFA or Andersen who will become a UFA next summer. It is like contemplating which career fields you want your kids to get into the moment your wife is pregnant. Instead of thinking will the house and Current area be suitable when the kids are ready for school. Like if you have been living in Downtown, would it make sense to move to the suburbs.

 

[Metroid]

How funny would it be to see Mitch move on to L.A or something and have Matthews sign a life contract (8 years with the leafs) after all this lol
Btw. I have a Marner Jersey, but think Matthews is the better player. Why did I get a Marner Jersey? Probably my hometown local kid bias thingy.
Good thing we have both of em for the next little bit!

 

[Menzinger]

So you want to only discuss circumstances similar to Matthews?

All right.

How common is it for American born hockey players, of similar calibre to Matthews, to resign with Canadian teams and/or come up here as UFAs in their prime?

This is nonsensical, because what another American player did or didnt do has zero relevancy on how Matthews personally feels about Toronto and the Leafs.

You're just doubling down on a bad point.