Does anyone still think Marner is better than Matthews?

[LeafsNation75]

You are aware of NHL's unrestricted free agency list that happens every year?

Chara, Belfour, Joseph, Hossa, Niedermayer, Nieuwendyk, Campbell, Hasek, Richards, Francis, St Louis, Parise, Gaborik, Roenick, Tavares, etc.

Are you new to hockey? Big names have hit the UFA market in the past and will in the future.

The pre-salary cap era UFA situation is fundamentally different from the current salary cap era.....

The fact that your list relies of 20ish year old examples is telling of how non-relevant your claim is to the context of the modern nhl.

There is something else he forgot. With the exception of Tavares, Parise, and Gaborik, all the other players he mentioned were traded to other teams before they became UFA's.

 

[Pookie]

What is an emotional leader?
Was Sundin an emotional leader?
Is JT an emotional leader?
Bc JT rarely shows any emotions on and off the ice.
You stated earlier did Leafs fans loves the player or just the idea of drafting a 1C.
Which is a fair question but are you also suggesting Matthews might leave after his contract bc he is not living up to your idea of The Leafs own 1C?
Although I agree with you there is a chance Matthews will leave after his contract but there is an equal chance he will stay.
If Matthews signed for 8 yrs, does that show he wants to be a Leafer for life or would the narrative to he is getting the biggest contract and be set for life in order to sign a sweetheart hometown deal with the Yokes when he hits UFA.
Also, I don’t think the place the player spent in the offseason is an indication of whether or not they like to stay with their team either. Mack does not spend his offseason in Colorado. McDavid spends his offseason in Toronto. Stamkos in TO. Reilly stays in West Vancouver during summer, as I see him all the time-actually saw him last week skating at the country club. Does that mean Mack will leave Colorado, McDavid coming to TO and Reilly is gone in two years and signs with the Canucks? All possible, but it is possible they sign with their original team like Stamkos.
Also, from what I have seen, Matthews love TO life, and the perks being a Leafs like having courtside seats to Raptors games. Hanging out with Bieber....
While I understand to always have a contingency plan but isn’t it a bit premature to talk about that when Matthews is only 1 year into his 5 years contract. If anything, Reilly is the player we should be discussing, he is two years away from UFA, massively underpaid at the moment, have roots and now GF in Vancouver, Canucks being an up and coming team. Got the caproom and can fit Reilly into the team. Yet nobody seem on this board seem to think Reilly will leave.

An 8 year deal would signal to me that we have him through his peak performance years.

I could care less if he wanted to walk as his skills declined.

An 8 year deal on the next go around that takes a player to his mid 30’s is never ideal.

Given that age and cap hit will be the pivot points in a team decision, it’s fair to ask whether max cash will be money well spent.

That’s something that a GM will have to plan for. Particularly if they are getting any signals that the player may be open to hitting the market.

It cannot be sign him at all costs.... at least that can’t be a prudent strategy.

 

[Pookie]

Your observation is largely incorrect, and influenced by bias, and even if it was correct, it's ridiculous to somehow define this young team by that and pin that on Matthews as an individual, and use it to dismiss his quality as a player and the countless things he brings to this hockey team, that would be near impossible to replace. But that's besides the point, because that is far from the only statement/claim you have made.

How is it influenced by bias? I like the guy.

I just don’t know if a money truck backing up to his home is a good long term move.

As much as you focus on “unknowable” info from Matthews.

There’s another side in this business transaction.

There is plenty known from the Leafs side. Including the contract end date, depth charts, medical info, player expectations.... can we talk about any of that?

 

[Martin Skoula]

No hockey = nothing to complain about like usual, better invent some baseless speculation about something bad that might happen 4 years from now.

 

[Stephen]

Okay, but for over 70 games Marner had the same points per game as Matthews had in slightly less games in the same season before Tavares arrived. Then it's pretty much stayed roughly even since then and even in their rookie years Matthews barely had a higher points per game, and I remember Marner was better than him during the 2nd half anyway. I agree the answer here is Matthews and will continue to be going forward, but given what I've just stated I don't see how Matthews was on an entirely different level offensively unless you place a huge emphasis on hot starts and primary points. I've watched nearly every game of their careers and they have been nearly back and forth on who's our best player until this season.

Maybe it’s the playmaker vs goal scorer debate but I find Matthews production is often tied to big moments, big momentum shifts and really noticeable shifts where the Leafs get into gear while Marner May put up 3 assists one night. What’s the wins loss record when Matthews scores?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yep.

I believe that the draw to the states will be big for him.

However, as I also said we may sign him or may not.

Whether he signs here also depends on whether the team wants to sign him here and what his price tag will be.

I suspect that it won’t be Dubas’ decision.

That’s more speculation on my part. Is that allowed?

If you want to think about Matthews future in Toronto that's fine.

However you can not say him spending his offseason in the United States or Scottsdale, Arizona since he's from there is going to be a reason why he will leave.

I have given you the example of Steven Stamkos spending his offseason in Toronto and he ended up re-signing with Tampa Bay, even though the Maple Leafs had wanted to sign him if he became a UFA.

So basically I can't understand why it's ok for you to claim Matthews will want to leave based on where he spends his offseason, however you completely dismiss my example of Stamkos doing the same thing and he re-signed with Tampa Bay.

 

[kb]

If you want to think about Matthews future in Toronto that's fine.

However you can not say him spending his offseason in the United States or Scottsdale, Arizona since he's from there is going to be a reason why he will leave.

I have given you the example of Steven Stamkos spending his offseason in Toronto and he ended up re-signing with Tampa Bay, even though the Maple Leafs had wanted to sign him if he became a UFA.

So basically I can't understand why it's ok for you to claim Matthews will want to leave based on where he spends his offseason, however you completely dismiss my example of Stamkos doing the same thing and he re-signed with Tampa Bay.

The posts are nothing more than cries for attention....there is zero to back it up, but 'feels'.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How is it influenced by bias? I like the guy.

It doesn't sound much like you like him, but whether or not you like him doesn't change the fact that you have bias in your observations.

I just don’t know if a money truck backing up to his home is a good long term move.

There is no money truck being backed up. Once again, this is 4 years down the road. We don't know any of the necessary information to judge what is right to pay him 4 years from now.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Maybe it’s the playmaker vs goal scorer debate but I find Matthews production is often tied to big moments, big momentum shifts and really noticeable shifts where the Leafs get into gear while Marner May put up 3 assists one night. What’s the wins loss record when Matthews scores?

Here are two of Matthews goals. The first one happening in Game 5 against the Bruins in last years playoffs when the score was 0-0 in the 3rd period giving the Leafs a 1-0 lead and they ended up winning that game 2-1. The other was from the 2018-19 season when Matthews scored in overtime with 2.7 seconds left to defeat Buffalo. So these are great examples of him having big moments and big momentum shifts.





However here was those three goals in 59 seconds where Matthews and Marner were responsbile for during that 8-6 win against Carolina, when they were losing 6-4 in the 3rd period. In this example on the 5th goal that Marner scored it was Matthews being the playmaker with his assist, when Tyson Barrie tied the game it was from a Marner pass, then on the 7th goal Marner got it after picking off the puck from the ensuing faceoff at centre.

 

[Pookie]

This is actually demonstrably false.

The number of star players who have left their home drafted teams whole in their primes is minuscule in the salary cap era.

You have Tavares, and prior to that Suter and Praise, and thats about it.

Its an incredibly rare thing to happen. Which is why your earlier speculation about Matthews likely going to leave seems particularly ill thought out

Riddle me this... how many star players reach UFA status at 27 years old in the cap era?

So far we have discussed:

Stamkos - re-signed with current team
Parise - moved
Suter - moved
Tavares - moved

3 of 4 so far.

It's quite possible that teams would lock up their stars to 7-8 year deals so that they are locked up in their primes.

That won't happen here unless there is another contract. Matthews will be 26 and UFA per the current deal.

But let's explore the data... which other stars have hit UFA status in the year in which they turn 27? Where did they end up?

And which players were 27 and about to hit the market but opted instead to resign with the team and forego the free market?

 

[Pookie]

If you want to think about Matthews future in Toronto that's fine.

However you can not say him spending his offseason in the United States or Scottsdale, Arizona since he's from there is going to be a reason why he will leave.

I have given you the example of Steven Stamkos spending his offseason in Toronto and he ended up re-signing with Tampa Bay, even though the Maple Leafs had wanted to sign him if he became a UFA.

So basically I can't understand why it's ok for you to claim Matthews will want to leave based on where he spends his offseason, however you completely dismiss my example of Stamkos doing the same thing and he re-signed with Tampa Bay.

Well... here's the thing about independent humans... each makes their own choice.

Tavares came back to Ontario in the summer and here he is.

Parise had family in Minnesota and there he is.

I suspect that Matthews will want to go to the USA and play (I never said specifically it would be the Coyotes or bust). I say that based on the fact his family lives there. I suspect that if he were to date someone, she would likely live in the USA where his previous girlfriends were.

I suspect that if he were to have children... that being close to family might be important.

What I can't understand is why you care so much? He's a hockey player. So what if he left? So what if he stayed?

The team moves on.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Riddle me this... how many star players reach UFA status at 27 years old in the cap era?

So far we have discussed:

Stamkos - re-signed with current team
Parise - moved
Suter - moved
Tavares - moved

3 of 4 so far.

It's quite possible that teams would lock up their stars to 7-8 year deals so that they are locked up in their primes.

That won't happen here unless there is another contract. Matthews will be 26 and UFA per the current deal.

But let's explore the data... which other stars have hit UFA status in the year in which they turn 27? Where did they end up?

And which players were 27 and about to hit the market but opted instead to resign with the team and forego the free market?

Let's look at other players who are considered to be stars or have name recognition that could have been UFA's and re-signed with their current teams.

Drew Doughty: Could have become a UFA on July 1, 2019 and he signed an 8 year contract extension with the Kings on July 1, 2018.
Tyler Seguin: Could have become a UFA on July 1, 2019 and he signed an 8 year contract extension with the Stars on September 13, 2018.
Erik Karlsson: Could have become a UFA on July 1, 2019 and he re-signed for 8 years with the Sharks on June 17, 2019.

 

[Pookie]

It doesn't sound much like you like him, but whether or not you like him doesn't change the fact that you have bias in your observations.

"Bias" is the lazy man's counter argument.

There is no money truck being backed up. Once again, this is 4 years down the road. We don't know any of the necessary information to judge what is right to pay him 4 years from now.

Hold up.

With a straight face you are telling me that 27 year old Auston Matthews who will be a pending or perhaps even current UFA will NOT have a significant money truck parked waiting for him?

Unless he's a colossal failure on and off the ice.... in which case, this is moot as we wouldn't want him either... there is absolutely no doubt that he will get paid a significant... significant sum of money.

Perhaps even more than he's worth if Dubas is still here.

 

[Pookie]

Let's look at other players who are considered to be stars or have name recognition that could have been UFA's and re-signed with their current teams.

Drew Doughty: Could have become a UFA on July 1, 2019 and he signed an 8 year contract extension with the Kings on July 1, 2018.
Tyler Seguin: Could have become a UFA on July 1, 2019 and he signed an 8 year contract extension with the Stars on September 13, 2018.
Erik Karlsson: Could have become a UFA on July 1, 2019 and he re-signed for 8 years with the Sharks on June 17, 2019.

That's it exactly...

.... though Seguin wasn't resigned by his home town drafted team... he got traded. As did Karlsson.

....Sometimes young Stars get traded.... heavens to betsy please don't consider that possibility here... I don't need folks having aneurysms.

But Doughty... sure. We can even count those 2 if you like.

...who else you got?

2 stayed with drafted teams... 2 stayed with traded to teams... and 3 left for new teams

 

[Spargon]

Here are two examples of Matthews goals. The first one happening in Game 5 against the Bruins in last years playoffs when the score was 0-0 in the 3rd period giving the Leafs a 1-0 lead and they ended up winning that game 2-1. The other was from the 2018-19 season when Matthews scored in overtime with 2.7 seconds left to defeat Buffalo. So these are great examples you said of him having big moments and big momentum shifts.





However here was those three goals in 59 seconds where Matthews and Marner were responsbile for during that 8-6 win against Carolina, when they were losing 6-4 in the 3rd period. In this example on the 5th goal that Marner scored it was Matthews being the playmaker with his assist, when Tyson Barrie tied the game it was from a Marner pass, then on the 7th goal Marner got it after picking off the puck from the ensuing faceoff at centre.

Off topic a bit but when people say Scotiabank Arena is quiet etc. Give us a reason to really cheer and Leaf fans will blow the damn roof off. The 3 goals in 59 second must have been deafening live.

 

[Stephen]

"Bias" is the lazy man's counter argument.

The idea that someone could accuse another of “bias” in an online discussion makes no sense because we are all representing subjective viewpoints.

The concept of a “non biased” approach to research would be represented by an open minded curiosity, as opposed to when engaged in a debate.

 

[ACC1224]

Off topic a bit but when people say Scotiabank Arena is quiet etc. Give us a reason to really cheer and Leaf fans will blow the damn roof off. The 3 goals in 59 second must have been deafening live.

I’ve only seen it louder for a playoff OT winner. So thankful I had 4 for that game and took my girls.

 

[Stephen]

Riddle me this... how many star players reach UFA status at 27 years old in the cap era?

So far we have discussed:

Stamkos - re-signed with current team
Parise - moved
Suter - moved
Tavares - moved

3 of 4 so far.

It's quite possible that teams would lock up their stars to 7-8 year deals so that they are locked up in their primes.

That won't happen here unless there is another contract. Matthews will be 26 and UFA per the current deal.

But let's explore the data... which other stars have hit UFA status in the year in which they turn 27? Where did they end up?

And which players were 27 and about to hit the market but opted instead to resign with the team and forego the free market?

You would be ignoring all the players who approached UFA status upon the expiry of second contracts and simply decided to re-sign with their team. Doughty, Seguin, Kane, Toews, Price.

 

[Pookie]

The idea that someone could accuse another of “bias” in an online discussion makes no sense because we are all representing subjective viewpoints.

The concept of a “non biased” approach to research would be represented by an open minded curiosity, as opposed to when engaged in a debate.

You get it.

 

[Pookie]

You would be ignoring all the players who approached UFA status upon the expiry of second contracts and simply decided to re-sign with their team. Doughty, Seguin, Kane, Toews, Price.

We should list them. Stars in their mid 20’s.

So far... it was 2-2-3 (stayed with drafted team, stayed with recently traded team, left).

Price was 30 when he resigned. Good deal for him.

 

[Dekes For Days]

"Bias" is the lazy man's counter argument.

No, it's a massively impacting reality in human observation.

With a straight face you are telling me that 27 year old Auston Matthews who will be a pending or perhaps even current UFA will NOT have a significant money truck parked waiting for him?

I'm sure he will get paid an appropriate amount, like any other player. And if the Leafs have the opportunity to pay that appropriate amount, they should, no question, assuming normal career trajectory. You appear to be speculating that he will be overpaid, which is based on nothing.

Perhaps even more than he's worth if Dubas is still here.

Dubas has never paid him more than his worth before, so this is baseless.

 

[Pookie]

I'm sure he will get paid an appropriate amount, like any other player. And if the Leafs have the opportunity to pay that appropriate amount, they should, no question, assuming normal career trajectory. You appear to be speculating that he will be overpaid, which is based on nothing.

The price of UFA’s going up in bidding wars is well documented.

It’s a reasonable “speculation” based on evidence that the UFA market is a very expensive mechanism to participate in.

Dubas has never paid him more than his worth before, so this is baseless.

Highest paid player on the team with a no movement clause in the year before UFA status?

All secured while being a restricted free agent?

I shudder at the thought of what Dubas would pay the player on an open market.

Many here do too.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The idea that someone could accuse another of “bias” in an online discussion makes no sense because we are all representing subjective viewpoints.

Human observation of hockey is affected by massive biases, especially when you have emotional investment in the team.

 

[Superstar]

He was an elite anchor weight

Hoglund must have thought he was the strong anchor for the line...

 

[Dekes For Days]

The price of UFA’s going up in bidding wars is well documented.

You don't even know if there will be a bidding war, or if he will hit UFA status. Cap hit percentage does not always go up. Again, we don't have any of the information to be discussing what his cap hit should even be.

Highest paid player on the team with a no movement clause in the year before UFA status? All secured while being a restricted free agent?

Yes, that's what being one of the best players in the entire cap era prior to signing your post-ELC contract will get you, like it would with literally every other GM.