Do you think Ovechkin's legacy will improve over time?

[895]

I think most people (rightly) put Ovechkin as the second best player of this era. There is a significant concrete gap between Crosby and Ovechkin.

However, what happens when people who saw both players and lived in this era get older and become the minority?

On paper, Ovechkin has a slight lead in individual awards. 3 to 2 Harts, 8 First team all stars to 4 and probably most important of all, he will probably have the goal record.

Now those of us growing up in this era know how many awards Crosby might've gotten if not for the injuries and how much centre depth is better than winger depth so the first team all stars are misleading....but when the majority of hockey fans didn't grow up in this period look up the players on wikipedia...won't Ovechkin look like he was the better player?

They'll dismiss most of the writers of this era as having anti-Russian bias or something.

I myself am a Capitals and Ovechkin fan so I don't consider this a tragedy exactly. I just think historiography is an interesting topic.

Click to read more...

 

[Dr John Carlson]

As a Capitals fan, when I'm 90 years old, it'll be very tempting to try and gaslight the youngsters into believing Ovechkin was better.

 

[DitchMarner]

His legacy is strong now. Many consider him a top 20 player. Some have him in the top ten.

I'm not sure his legacy will improve decades from now - has Lafleur's or Bossy's?

I do think more people will put him ahead of Crosby compared to now.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Double dipping for goals as a "trophy", being at a position with limited competition increasing his AS teams, his constant availability vs the field, and his ability to basically mortgage whatever else he had in his game to still just casually throw more pucks into the net than anyone else for years - not that those things are bad or necessarily bad - probably already make him look more impactful than he was for his career and that paper trail will probably skew things a bit down the road.

I think it'll sort of happen in waves though...

He'll score goal 895, and there will be a push that he's like a top 5 or whatever all time player.

Then we'll get the "controller disconnected career retrospective" as a response to that and people will forget what a game breaker AND game wrecker he was early in his career...and folks will wonder if maybe Malkin...or even Patrick Kane or someone...should be considered in the Ovechkin area. Maybe a hail mary of "what if Stamkos..." or some noise...

And then time will pass, we'll retain the early career highlights of bombs and hits on YouTube and the paper trail of goal finishes and 1LW nods and he'll probably settle higher than is probably warranted.

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No matter what he's a tough eval...and when you're up as high as he is, even a few places movement either way can make people start to get mad or whatever. Moving, I don't know, Michel Goulet from 189 to 144, no one looks twice...moving Ovechkin from 14 to 10 or something displaces some names that have a lot of backers and a lot of claim to that/those spots.

Then there's the understanding of Ovechkin the player, which I think is kind of all over the place as far as modern greats go. So that clouds things. This might be a good idea for a video one day... "Ovechkin over the years" because he's a fascinating case study...

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don’t think he can go too far up the list from where most people have him now.

 

[JackSlater]

Yes, he will rise. To tie into the further speculation in the OP, Crosby will fall a bit. The reasons are pretty much already laid out - trophies and the goal record. When people didn't experience a player they try to piece together a story of that player, rather than actually knowing generally how good they were, and Ovechkin has some great building blocks. He is one of the best players ever, but the experience of watching Ovechkin is less impressive. People aren't going to go back and watch much video of post-2010 Ovechkin.

Great highlights, great awards, very prominent record. What's not to like if you're just looking back trying to figure him out?

 

[Gregor Samsa]

I think his legacy will improve if anything as he was an exciting player and a highlight reel. Him and Crosby were just what the NHL needed coming out of the lockout. For 2 decades OV has been one of the faces of the league and one of its most visible historically. There will always be some contrarians but legacy wise there will be few with a better one. A big thing is I think OV appeals to the casual fan more than someone like Crosby or McDavid

 

[Overrated]

Yes, he will rise. To tie into the further speculation in the OP, Crosby will fall a bit. The reasons are pretty much already laid out - trophies and the goal record. When people didn't experience a player they try to piece together a story of that player, rather than actually knowing generally how good they were, and Ovechkin has some great building blocks. He is one of the best players ever, but the experience of watching Ovechkin is less impressive. People aren't going to go back and watch much video of post-2010s Ovechkin.

Great highlights, great awards, very prominent record. What's not to like if you're just looking back trying to figure him out?

People overrate Crosby due to not wanting to believe the best players of their era were inferior to the best players of the last era they didn't get to see. I can't even count how many times I've read that it's impossible to score anywhere near the levels of Gretzky and Lemieux due to everyone being so good these days. Now with McDavid around it's clear Crosby was vastly inferior to Mario Lemieux.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, I'm not gonna sit and pretend there's some magic number of Top X out there which will always be debated but the overall sentiment should be overwhelmingly positive. He is the standard by which all Goal Scorers and 21st Century Wingers will be judged against. Most of the critiques against him are fairly petty and "in the moment" type stuff that I think fades over time. His peak, prime and longevity are all supreme. I'm always somewhat impressed by how well he holds up across a bunch of Rolling 10-year analyses in points and goals. The Capitals were a very good team throughout most of his career and he was the leader of the Franchise's only Cup, in an era where the hard cap and 30-32 team league means every great player isn't guaranteed Cups just because.

 

[DitchMarner]

People overrate Crosby due to not wanting to believe the best players of their era were inferior to the best players of the last era they didn't get to see. I can't even count how many times I've read that it's impossible to score anywhere near the levels of Gretzky and Lemieux due to everyone being so good these days. Now with McDavid around it's clear Crosby was vastly inferior to Mario Lemieux.

Around 2017 some people became ridiculous with comparing Crosby to older players. Some acted like Lemieux and Gretzky were from the 30s or 40s lol. Lemieux dominated the League offensively just a few years before Crosby started his NHL career. Gretzky had his last big offensive season ('98) less than ten years before Crosby's first Hart season (which is still one of his best seasons).

In terms of time, Gretzky '98 (nowhere near his best but a top five scorer) is as close to Crosby 2010-2011 (when many believe Crosby was at his apex as a player) as Crosby is to McDavid 2023 (when he scored 153 points).

 

[BraveCanadian]

People overrate Crosby due to not wanting to believe the best players of their era were inferior to the best players of the last era they didn't get to see. I can't even count how many times I've read that it's impossible to score anywhere near the levels of Gretzky and Lemieux due to everyone being so good these days. Now with McDavid around it's clear Crosby was vastly inferior to Mario Lemieux.

This is one reason I loved McDavids big year.. it showed all those arguments to be wrong and many of us were vindicated after so long!

 

[MadLuke]

He will have unimaginable goal numbers, peak, Pearson, Smythe, goal record, youtube highlights, a bit like Jagr washington time Ovechkin down year will not look that bad when you do not lived the transition, with numbers still looking good.

And the older player above him now could decline, in reality he probably have a case that can be made against everyone not in the top 4 and soon McDavid, that they will need to win against him for the people of the future.

This is one reason I loved McDavids big year.. it showed all those arguments to be wrong and many of us were vindicated after so long!

Could be said either way, someone like McDavid peaking at 50% more points than 10th place can be said as more of a proof than doubling it like Gretzky-Lemieux was doing is now really impossible, if even McDavid does not come any close.

Jagr did 53% one time, that was known to be possible outside those 2.

 

[The Panther]

Ovechkin needs, I think, 42 more goals to rank #1 in all-time NHL (regular season) goals, right? Probably, he won't do it in 2024-25, but then he might do it in 2025-26, say. At that point -- when that season ends -- he'd be 40 years old, having played 21 seasons.

Players who play for a really long time live on the double-edged sword, I find, in terms of their legacy. Let me explain:

Ovechkin, like most players, had a 3-4 season peak, when he was young, when he was at his absolute best. We all know the 'Ovechkin' (circa 2007, 2008) I'm talking about.

The Ovechkin of the past few years is about two solid notches below that peak-Ovechkin.... but in Ovechkin's case, he has managed to keep up ridiculous goals totals almost consistently throughout his career, even during these past few seasons when he's two notches down (I mean, he's not winning Richards anymore, but he has still been able to fill the net).

However, the longer you play, the more hockey fans see you playing past your prime. Like, young'uns who started watching in about 2020 have mainly seen a prolific Ovechkin, but one who doesn't move the needle much at evens and who relies a lot on the PP for his offensive chances. Not that there's anything wrong with those things, necessarily, but it's not the Ovechkin of 2009.

So, while Ovechkin will probably get the all-time goals record -- and that record will begin every biographical piece on him and largely define his future legacy -- I would argue that his play around 2006 to 2010 is the much more important part of his legacy, and that more important part might get minimized by a career record.

Anyway, up or down, his legacy is safe, but I just hope people don't focus overly on the career goals record, as I don't think career records are particularly important.

 

[MadLuke]

However, the longer you play, the more hockey fans see you playing past your prime.

If you stay on the same team all of your career (i.e. most people have seen you before and not for the first time), I am not sure how much it is an issue, I have not really example in minds. Specially if you are not a D or G and your mistake are so visible and costly.

Selanne played until 43, nothing last 2 seasons, really does not matter. It helps if your bad season occur when you are really old and not at 32-33.

 

[The Panther]

Selanne played until 43, nothing last 2 seasons, really does not matter. It helps if your bad season occur when you are really old and not at 32-33.

I don't think Ovechkin has had any "bad" seasons -- they're all good to great. It's just that the longer you play, the more an entire generation of fans remembers you only for your "good" years and never knew your "great" years.

I mean, the alternative (retiring younger) has the downside that fewer people saw you at all! But those who did will remember the "best" you.

 

[buffalowing88]

The Gretzky goal record chase is fun but it's also sort of obnoxious, at this point. He's a liability on a bad team and he's openly searching for goals, even, I would argue, at times where he'd be better off looking to pass or re-group in the offensive zone.

If him having the record makes some in the future think that he's superior to Gretzky in scoring, that'll suck but I suppose it's inevitable. We already see this in the NBA with current players gunning for statistical records well after their prime.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think Ovechkin has had any "bad" seasons

Let's not go crazy...

I mean, if a "bad" season is the kind that a Connor Brown might have then, sure...whatever. But on the scale of all time greats, he's had some very poor outings. When you watch a Caps game...say, one from last year because those should be fresh...what, ummm, state or condition do you find player 8 to be in...?

 

[centipede2233]

Ovechkin will never be ahead of Crosby because Crosby has about as good of an international career as you could possibly have, and Ovechkin won absolutely nothing best on best and performed poorly. Add in the 2010 golden goal, 2 smythes to ovie’s 1 and 3 cups to ovie’s 1, in terms of legacy and a ranking all time, Crosby will forever be above Ovechkin, goal scoring record or not.

 

[Dog]

He probably will break Gretzky goal record either this season or next but no one will come close to his total assists or points. Also, can't really compare him to Gretzky because styles were different! Different styles and different eras! Crosby also different style player it's hard comparing centers to wingers. Generation player for sure to have this longevity in league.

 

[bobholly39]

Ovechkin has done a few things to help improve his legacy in my eyes. Small things, but that I found important.

2021-2022 season. 36 years old, he was leading the Ross/Hart race into January....completely unexpected. yes he did fall off a lot in the second half - but it was still phenomenal value to his team who he helped secure a playoff berth early in the year thanks ot their strong start.

2023-2024 season. No one expected Caps to make playoffs, and even less after they traded a lot of pieces at TDL. Ovechkin was having his worst season and seemed to be slowing down....but he was great in the second half. Helped lead Capitals to the playoffs, unexpectedly. He didn't do particularly well either playoff run - in fact he was bad in 2024 - but I still find it impressive the in-season turn around.

Winning harts and rockets and lindseys is great - but at some point you simply can't keep up. So I like seeing things like this.

To make a Crosby parallel - a lot of people say they don't like his 2017-2018 season. I'm the exact opposite. Sure - this is the first year since his rookie season where he wasn't contending for a Ross/Hart/Lindsey - but his team was floundering about to miss the playoffs mid-year (despite being back to back champioins), and he put his team on his back with a great run that led to a winning streak and turned their season around. Then - he took his foot off the gas again in regular season, and was ready to compete come playoffs.

For Ovechkin - I suspect he has one last great year in-store for us. I say he'll break Gretzky's record this season by surpassing 42 goals. I wouldn't be shocked to see him hit 50. I assume he hated his first half season last year, and is doing everything he can this off-season to come ready and in-shape for next year.

Also lastly - I don't know that Crosby or Ovechkin's legacies will change a lot over time. This is different than Shore/Morenz era. Nobody really saw those guys play. But in this era we have the internet and every game is available on video - even in 50 years all of that information will sitll be available.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, he will rise. To tie into the further speculation in the OP, Crosby will fall a bit. The reasons are pretty much already laid out - trophies and the goal record. When people didn't experience a player they try to piece together a story of that player, rather than actually knowing generally how good they were, and Ovechkin has some great building blocks. He is one of the best players ever, but the experience of watching Ovechkin is less impressive. People aren't going to go back and watch much video of post-2010 Ovechkin.

Great highlights, great awards, very prominent record. What's not to like if you're just looking back trying to figure him out?

I don't see that.

McDavid will probably be above Crosby eventually, but outside of that I don't see any current players touching Sid's legacy.

 

[norrisnick]

Let's not go crazy...

I mean, if a "bad" season is the kind that a Connor Brown might have then, sure...whatever. But on the scale of all time greats, he's had some very poor outings. When you watch a Caps game...say, one from last year because those should be fresh...what, ummm, state or condition do you find player 8 to be in...?

38yo. There are some guys ranked high that looked, or would have looked had they still been playing, a hell of a lot worse at 38.

 

[Michael Farkas]

38yo. There are some guys ranked high that looked, or would have looked had they still been playing, a hell of a lot worse at 38.

He's been 38 for half a decade then...

 

[MadLuke]

Not nice to be last in +/- on your team with that kind of deployment and nice teammates (Strome-Carlson-Wilson most common comparse, > 70% offensive start) and did look bothered by something for most of the year.

But he is a 38 years old, Phil Kessel is 35, Ovechkin have had good for a X years old seasons for a while

If him having the record makes some in the future think that he's superior to Gretzky in scoring, that'll suck but I suppose it's inevitable. We already see this in the NBA with current players gunning for statistical records well after their prime.

They gun for it at their peak (see a Westbrook triple-double season), in the NBA it is hard to keep a spot and get minutes if you are really a washout, not sure if you can Marleau your way to a most played game record.

 

[Dog]

I don't see that.

McDavid will probably be above Crosby eventually, but outside of that I don't see any current players touching Sid's legacy.

You never know! Rare to find such talent every decade or more. Nobody will touch Gretzky point record.